Can we discuss Net vs Straight Carbs? Esp w Ketogenic Diet.
yeswehave8
Posts: 45 Member
Hello again! 
I was rolling along pretty well after deciding to return to this WOE, as it works best for my body. The whole ketosis process is still sort of new to me, though. I did get some Ketostix and was only between trace and small before derailing this weekend and (of course) falling out of ketosis completely. Of course, water weight has found me and I've put back on about 2.5 lbs in just 4 days.
SO, I am back on track today and have recommitted to this WOE, as my body is clearly telling me it dislikes all the extra carbs... and the gluten, oh em gee the gluten!! *sigh* I am eating like I had been before Friday, coffee for breakfast (I'm not a big breakfast person), salad for lunch and then some sort of meat for supper (tonight is chicken). Between the salad, the little bit of cheese and the pistachios, I am already at 21 grams of carbs for the day. I see so many saying they stay under 20-25 and yet I would prefer to still have veggies with supper.
Which brings me to the big question: How many of you actively subtract the fiber/whatever to calculate net carbs? Is there an easier way to monitor this that doesn't require calculations? Or should I not sweat it as much if I am not getting carbs except from nuts, veggies and dairy? I do not use added sugar anywhere, consume no grains on a regular basis and am a fairly clean eater in general (think Paleo-ish).
PS: I did order a book to read up on Ketogenic dieting, but I'm looking to see what others do. Thanks!
I was rolling along pretty well after deciding to return to this WOE, as it works best for my body. The whole ketosis process is still sort of new to me, though. I did get some Ketostix and was only between trace and small before derailing this weekend and (of course) falling out of ketosis completely. Of course, water weight has found me and I've put back on about 2.5 lbs in just 4 days.
SO, I am back on track today and have recommitted to this WOE, as my body is clearly telling me it dislikes all the extra carbs... and the gluten, oh em gee the gluten!! *sigh* I am eating like I had been before Friday, coffee for breakfast (I'm not a big breakfast person), salad for lunch and then some sort of meat for supper (tonight is chicken). Between the salad, the little bit of cheese and the pistachios, I am already at 21 grams of carbs for the day. I see so many saying they stay under 20-25 and yet I would prefer to still have veggies with supper.
Which brings me to the big question: How many of you actively subtract the fiber/whatever to calculate net carbs? Is there an easier way to monitor this that doesn't require calculations? Or should I not sweat it as much if I am not getting carbs except from nuts, veggies and dairy? I do not use added sugar anywhere, consume no grains on a regular basis and am a fairly clean eater in general (think Paleo-ish).
PS: I did order a book to read up on Ketogenic dieting, but I'm looking to see what others do. Thanks!
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i tried to use net carbs but it didn't really work for me. So i use gross carbs. i have done LCHF/Keto and "zero carb". My theory is if you are using your "extra" carbs on veggies it probably works better then if you are (like me) not eating alot of veggies and using the "extra" carbs on dairy items like cream or cream cheese. Just my theory.0
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Personally, I don't sweat it. Some people do. See what works for you both in terms of the level and types of carbs.
I think with the types of carbs you're eating, you're on the right path.
Once you're low enough in carbs, your level of ketones is a function of fat -- both the fat you eat, and the fat your body donates to the cause. Of course, it's only the latter that leads to weight loss. 0 -
My goal is to eat as many carbs as I can (from mostly whole foods) and still have a normal appetite -- and that number for me is around 50g total carbs (30g - 40g net). I can easily eat less carbs, and often do, but calories are what impacts my weight loss not carb counts or how deeply I'm in ketosis. So there's no point for me (I know others here are different) to skip the negligible calories in vegetables for a lower carb count than I need.
My advice is to log for a few weeks and pay particular attention to how you're feeling and let that be the deciding factor for how many carbs you eat. I definitely wouldn't skip the low carb vegetables with your dinner tonight though when chances are you'll do just fine eating them. Good luck! 0 -
I will go back and check, but I think my gross carbs have been running closer to 40-50 gms a day and I was in "light" ketosis at that rate and weight was starting to come off again. I am also very active, though, exercising in some form nearly every day. I'd love to find that sweet spot for me, it's just confusing is all. If lower is more effective, I think I could do it, but I am literally just getting those carbs from whole foods. No real cravings, other than emotional.
Thanks everyone!
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Net carbs have more to do with where you live than what you eat. If you live outside the US, your food labels already show "net carbs" by default, and just call them "carbs." If you live in the US, your food labels list "carbs" as total carbs + total fiber. Outside the US, calculating your existing label for net carbs is underestimating what you're really eating. Similarly, outside the US, using MFP's default entries for basic (non-user entry) foods is overestimating what you're really eating.
Inside the US, the opposite is true, the food label is overestimating and foreign user entries are underestimating if you subtract fiber from them. The 20g recommendation for ketosis is based on net carbs, and that number exists because it's the lower end of the range where people stay in ketosis. For most people, they can have 30 or even 40 net and still stay in ketosis, but each individual has to experiment after they're fat adapted to see how high they personally can go.
As for the ketostix, they're not really telling you anything useful. All they measure is one kind of ketone produced to excess, out of three, and only when your body isn't adapted. Once you are fat adapted, you'll likely never register on one at all, even though you've been in full ketosis for months. They exist to help T1 diabetics find out if they are producing excess ketones, which is bad for them. They aren't designed to tell you if you are in ketosis from day to day.0 -
I just use gross carbs & set it to 40g but aim for 20.0
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yeswehave8 wrote: »I'd love to find that sweet spot for me, it's just confusing is all. If lower is more effective, I think I could do it, but I am literally just getting those carbs from whole foods. No real cravings, other than emotional.
It is confusing, and I'm not sure even the book authors really understand it well.
Personally, I think you're nailing it both in quantity and quality of carbs. You're choosing carbs that don't trigger cravings, and your level is low enough to guarantee nearly optimal ketone generation.
If you go lower, you'll enter the gluconeogenesis level, which isn't necessarily a Bad Thing. It'll actually burn a few more calories metabolically, but there may be some unwanted hormonal effects.
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A ketogenic diet subtracts the fibre carbs because of the restriction to 20g. Fibre is not absorbed by the body therefore is not included in the carb count.
There are some useful tables here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah8MbmZepQxWdGo4bnB2QmxxMUlmTzZUTXYzMURRLWc#gid=0 that can help with net carbs for a wide range of foods.Net carbs have more to do with where you live than what you eat. If you live outside the US, your food labels already show "net carbs" by default, and just call them "carbs." If you live in the US, your food labels list "carbs" as total carbs + total fiber. Outside the US, calculating your existing label for net carbs is underestimating what you're really eating. Similarly, outside the US, using MFP's default entries for basic (non-user entry) foods is overestimating what you're really eating.
This is not true for Australia.
The total carb count includes fibre and fibre carbs and are listed separately.0 -
A ketogenic diet subtracts the fibre carbs because of the restriction to 20g. Fibre is not absorbed by the body therefore is not included in the carb count.
There are some useful tables here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah8MbmZepQxWdGo4bnB2QmxxMUlmTzZUTXYzMURRLWc#gid=0 that can help with net carbs for a wide range of foods.Net carbs have more to do with where you live than what you eat. If you live outside the US, your food labels already show "net carbs" by default, and just call them "carbs." If you live in the US, your food labels list "carbs" as total carbs + total fiber. Outside the US, calculating your existing label for net carbs is underestimating what you're really eating. Similarly, outside the US, using MFP's default entries for basic (non-user entry) foods is overestimating what you're really eating.
This is not true for Australia.
The total carb count includes fibre and fibre carbs and are listed separately.
LOL - @Sajyana I thought it was only us Americans who were screwed up on all this!i tried to use net carbs but it didn't really work for me. So i use gross carbs. i have done LCHF/Keto and "zero carb". My theory is if you are using your "extra" carbs on veggies it probably works better then if you are (like me) not eating alot of veggies and using the "extra" carbs on dairy items like cream or cream cheese. Just my theory.
Like most, I don't worry if my extra carbs are coming from veggies or cheese. I don't generally eat cheese stand alone (I try to pair it with meat or other fat) ANYMORE, and so I generally aim for 20-25 grams (TOTAL) a day, but as long as I'm under 50 grams total a day, I don't worry too much. Watch the trends, as others said.yeswehave8 wrote: »I will go back and check, but I think my gross carbs have been running closer to 40-50 gms a day and I was in "light" ketosis at that rate and weight was starting to come off again. I am also very active, though, exercising in some form nearly every day. I'd love to find that sweet spot for me, it's just confusing is all. If lower is more effective, I think I could do it, but I am literally just getting those carbs from whole foods. No real cravings, other than emotional.
Thanks everyone!
@yeswehave8 If you're looking for that sweet spot, you're going to have to get consistent for 2-3 weeks, track, then if you are losing, and want to eat more, add 5-10 total to your daily number once per week. For example, say you got it consistent at 25 grams carbs (whether you use total or net for this exercise is your choice, as long as you remain consistent).
Assuming a loss during this time:
Week 1: 25 grams per day
Week 2: 30 grams of carbs a day
Week 3: 35 grams of carbs a day
Week 4: 40 grams of carbs a day
Keep doing this until you stop losing weight.
Then bump back one week previous, and you should continue to lose weight slowly at a steady pace.
So if you stopped losing at 65 grams of carbs a day, bumping back to 60 or 55 grams of carbs a day should be your current sweet spot. This may adjust for each chunk of weight you lose, or it may not. This entire process is individualized and must be adjusted periodically if it becomes ineffective.0 -
Well that confuses me even further.
The pistachios for instance, when I look them up online it says that the total carb is about 8 gm, but "net carbs" is about 5 gms. Looking at the serving size, I am overestimating anyway, cause I have nowhere near 49 nuts on my salad... just want a better picture of what I should be aiming for.
I realize Ketostix are not the perfect tool for the job, but it's all I can afford and I am looking for a snapshot anyway.
Thanks for the link, Sajyana, I'll check it out.0 -
yeswehave8 wrote: »Well that confuses me even further. The pistachios for instance, when I look them up online it says that the total carb is about 8 gm, but "net carbs" is about 5 gms. Looking at the serving size, I am overestimating anyway, cause I have nowhere near 49 nuts on my salad... just want a better picture of what I should be aiming for.
I realize Ketostix are not the perfect tool for the job, but it's all I can afford and I am looking for a snapshot anyway.
Thanks for the link, Sajyana, I'll check it out.
I keep both net and total carb counts in my head with nuts. I don't worry about veggies (because I'm only eating low carb/high fiber veggies, and only then slathered in fats) or cheese (I do count HWC closely, because that is very easy for me to overdo)...
But nuts - nuts are way to easy to eat a ton for me.... So I keep both numbers in my head. I never want my total over 50, and if my Total Carbs is 50, I want my net about half of that.
So I guess you could say that my goals are 25 NET Carbs and 50 Total Carbs, but only if that includes nuts and veggies. Otherwise it is 25 TOTAL for me. (This way I don't massively overdo the cheese, as it is only a loose tracking at this point.)
I try to keep to one serving of nuts a day - two if it is a weird day (lower carb nuts are more friendly to the two servings a day rule). Does any of this help?0 -
yeswehave8 wrote: »Well that confuses me even further.
For those with metabolic disorders low carb might help them lose weight eating more calories than they would be able to eating a balanced diet. For others eating low carb allows them to comfortably eat less calories than they would just counting calories alone so they lose more weight eating low carb.
But for the most part low carb diets work simply because people spontaneously reduce their calories -- they're not hungry so they eat less. So what you're looking for with your carb count is the level of carbs you can eat and still maintain the appetite suppressing effects.
You shouldn't be hungry all of the time, it should be relatively easy even when you are hungry to put off eating if it's convenient to (or even skip a meal), and you shouldn't be obsessed with food or have carb and sugar cravings. What level of carbs it takes to get those effects is an individual thing but like JPW1990 said 20g - 40g net carbs is the right amount for most people. KnitOrMiss was giving you an example of how to find that carb limit by going in increments of 5g to find your sweet spot.
Once you reach that level of appetite control there is no further benefit for reducing your carbs further. Whether you track total carbs or net carbs really doesn't matter just pick one and be consistent (a scale can help with that so you know exactly how much you're eating). If you want to lose more weight once your carbs are low enough for the appetite suppressing effects it's a matter of reducing your calories not your carbs.
I really hope that helps you and isn't even more confusing!
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Yes, thanks. I can see how nuts can be an issue, and I've been known to sit and eat a bag in one sitting in the past. Being that I've been adding them to my salad, it's been much easier for portion control. I find I really enjoy the crunch, too. I will try to keep that in mind, though, cause I am sure they can add up quickly.
Looks like I landed just over 50 total today, as I decided to have my chicken on a salad. I am way under my calories, though, because I have been a busy bee (typical Monday!) so I hope it is a wash.
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This is not true for Australia.
The total carb count includes fibre and fibre carbs and are listed separately.
Really ? http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/code/userguide/pages/nutritioninformation1406.aspx says otherwise. "Total carbohydrate" is a North American construct as far as I can tell, Australia does permit analysis by difference (LOL)Carbohydrate by difference is calculated by subtracting from 100, the average quantity expressed
as a percentage, of water, protein, fat, dietary fibre, ash, alcohol
Broccoli is a good item to check, if the fibre is several times greater than the carbs you know the fibre isn't included in the carbs.0
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