Two Lovely Ladies seek Friendship/Carb-Loading Advice
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LOL I know, Wabmester, never fear. Both the milk choc and the fudge were gifts, and the fudge won't be touched for at least a week, and truly 'mouse nibbled' when it is consumed.
I'm up another 100 grams this morning, though yesterday's macros were the same as my usual plan, rather than the higher carb/calorie one. I just didn't want any more. My diary is always open if anyone wishes. Start weight 82.7 kgs on Friday, now 83 and you can see the macro breakups and calories. Zero exercise other than incidental walking of a few thousand steps per day.
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Ideally, we'd have some way to directly measure your cortisol levels. Short of that, some nice-and-easy proxy would be good. I'm thinking of maybe blood pressure. A quick scan of some studies suggests higher cortisol levels might correlate with higher blood pressure (a little). Also, cortisol levels should peak in the morning right after you wake up, and bottom just before bed time.
So, you may want to take a blood pressure reading once in AM (peak) and once before bedtime (valley) and see if the pressure changes based on any of the other variables you're changing: carb level, calorie level, exercise intensity, sleep quality, etc.
(I may try this too. Apparently, old age like mine can mess with your night-time cortisol levels and cause high blood pressure.)
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I got the BP machine out and have put it in a prominent place to take pre and post bed readings for a couple of days so stay tuned.
I'm really having to force myself to eat the extra calories and carbs, which I'm finding very interesting. Didn't manage it yesterday. I'm about to have dinner tonight so I'll see what I can achieve. We were out for brunch being treated by our son for Mothers Day.0 -
My weight is exactly the same as yesterday: 219.6. I wish MFP didn't announce the daily fluctuations as losses. I'd like to track what I'm doing but want to avoid that dumb false announcement.
GMO, your chart impresses me more every time I see it!0 -
That's encouraging Wheatless, congratulations. Staying the same is definitely better than putting on
I only log my weight when I have a drop to a new level. That's my preferred method anyway.wheatlessgirl66 wrote: »GMO, your chart impresses me more every time I see it!
Oh, thank you
I do love my facts and stats.
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I'm always impressed by your mad spreadsheet skillz.
FWIW, I took my BP readings at night and again in the morning. Mine are significantly higher at night, which seems backwards. I may ask my doc about it next time I see him.0 -
Thanks @Wabmester - you can't take the book-keeper out of a girl when she finishes working.
Well I took my BP before bed. Oh boy!!! Although it didn't scare the heck out of me like the first time I found it raised back in late Feb, I still had trouble falling asleep. And this morning was no better. I rang my naturopath who has added some valerian to the 3 herbs he prescribed for me 3 weeks ago for the 'heart palpitations' and says I'll be fixed very soon - including BP. My BP is just crazy. As soon as I ignore it, it's sky high when I take it again. When I monitor it, it stays fine.
So last night before bed at 1.30am was 152/85 with 68 pulse, which is also high for me. My resting pulse is usually high 50s to 61 at most.
This morning David took it twice, probably too close together really, but we got 154/85 with 69, then 140/93 with 69. No good yet for your stats I expect.
As to my weight, I was up 700g this morning but, because David had an appointment with a surgeon we had to get up at 8.30 so I was tired. 7 hours in bed, far less than that sleep will almost always give a weight gain. But if there's no good news on the scales tomorrow I think it's time to pull the pin on the extra carbs and calories and go back to what I was doing. Hopefully this 5 day journey will have been enough to kick start losing again when I go back to old ways. I'm honestly having difficulty wanting the extra food, even though I'm getting hungry for my brunch sooner than I was on less food.
@Wheatless - hoping you've done well today?0 -
@Wabmester I just read elsewhere that you said potassium is good for reducing blood pressure. The weird thing is that my 'heart palpitations' seemed always to be made worse whenever I ate or drank something with high potassium (a variety of supplements, and a couple of times even eating butter in a large quantity).
Why can't I just be normal?0 -
@GrannyMayOz I am so sorry you're feeling so awful today! I hope by now the bp is on its way down and you're getting some relief. It may help to know that several months ago my bp was elevated and eventually went up to 186/90 something so I went to the emergency room b/c I was so frightened. They checked me out but sent me back home without meds or anything. The cardiologist said that level isn't dangerous unless it continues for WEEKS without going down. I was so surprised. It helps me to know that when it gets elevated now, because it always comes down again. I don't have clogged arteries; I don't know if that makes a difference. Take care of yourself and get some rest! Let us know how you're doing.
This morning I'm at 219.0, down from yesterday but still up 2 lbs from my low of a couple of weeks back. I got 6 hours of sleep which is pretty good for me. I know, my sleep is rotten. I didn't get my calories/macros in yesterday. I wasn't as hungry as usual, and need to go grocery shopping. My desire for low carb vegetables has decreased quite a bit. I'd love a sweet potato, but
! Slippery slope! I'm not sure what I think about this increased carb/calorie thing. I'm not consistently hitting my goals so it's not really a good test so far. I'm trying to remember to wait until I'm truly hungry before eating and to stop when I'm satisfied. The volume of food I can eat at one time is drastically changed. If my body is burning 'old' fat, maybe that affects my hunger/need for new fuel?? As in, if you're tending a fire and there are lots of dense logs burning, you won't need to add new logs to the fire very soon. That's what I think, but maybe my thinking is bogus! I feel like I could live a long time off the 'fat of the land.'
Keep us posted, GMO! Feel better soon! xoxoxo
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@GMO, both sodium and potassium are used in every cell of your body (on opposite sides of the cell membrane), so it's important to maintain a balance, especially when we lose some due to being in ketosis.
Don't know if you caught it, but the MD made another appearance yesterday and mentioned the potential effects of yet another hormone that gets secreted during ketosis -- glucagon. It's another that controls metabolism but can also affect the heart rate similar to adrenaline. The good news is that your HR is low enough that you shouldn't worry about that one.
Regarding BP, while the absolute numbers are important, you also want to monitor the effects of your diet and behavior changes. I only have two days of data, but my night-time BP was high on the day I ran 4 miles, and it dropped 10 points (both systolic and diastolic) on the day I walked instead of ran.
Might be a fluke, but that's the sort of positive stress control I'd watch for.0 -
Hi May and Ellen. Sorry you dont seem to be having a positive time with this experiment and now you have to add BP into the mix too. Im sure it will sort out. May are you stressing, however silently/internally about your mil and Davids need (or not) for surgery or anything???
Yet again i have been having a racing pulse and awareness of my heatbeat and palpitations although my bp has been fine. Yesterday I decided again to add extra electrolytes and weirdly after eating a good couple of pinches of salt and low salt for potassium plus another magnesium tablet(hadnt noticed it said serving size 2 tabs for 400mg!!! Doh!) within half an hour or so I felt better! Placebo or actual it was nice not to feel like my blood was fizzing in my heart! Today bp as usual 125/69 and pulse 84 (normal for me as I'm a slob not active like you are,lol) Yesterday and a couple of days before it was 98-105!!! Just shows how we are affected by these losses.
@wabmester.....what was it you read about MD and glucagon? Be interested in hearing about that.0 -
Jane, we see lots of reports like yours of palpitations and general malaise during ketosis. I'm convinced its due to electrolyte loss, but the MD added that it could also be a side-effect of glucagon.0
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@Ellen Thank you. I haven’t dared take my BP, but I’ve hardly done anything except tidy and quick-clean the kitchen and paint my nails this evening. Made microwave scrambled eggs for dinner and generally not doing much. What the doctor ordered I think, and I’ll be bailing early and go to bed before David comes home today. I get more bed that way too
Wow, your BP really was high, I’d have been frightened too! I’m happy to hear of your loss today but yes, would be great if you hit, or bettered your lowest weight! I’m finding that I just don’t want the extra food. Even when I exercise I don’t even want those calories additional to my old 1450 goal. Who’da thunk it last December when I was eating for king and country! I agree with the burning logs analogy and have today had an embarrassing symptom return that used to be due to excess sugar consumption - which I didn't know at the time. I still say that this is because of what’s being released into my body from the clearing fat cells – old horrors are bringing out old symptoms. This is the third time I’ve had the symptoms for about 12 hours where I used to have it 4 or 5 days every week. I’m off to bed in an hour and will update tomorrow.
@Wabmester I eat plenty of salt and my understanding is that if you eat salt, your potassium will remain preserved? Obviously you still need dietary sources in sensible amounts. I did supplement potassium a while ago but that’s when all the fluttering began. It’s not my heart, apparently it’s the thymus gland causing a feeling of heart flutters. And in my opinion potassium supplementation makes it worse. Maybe I already have plenty of potassium and supplementation puts me over the top.
No I didn’t see the glucagon references. There are so many active threads at the moment and I’ve been really busy so I’m barely reading a third of them all. Good to know I don’t need to worry about that one. We had our BPs tested once soon after a long run on a hot day and they were so good the nurse got all excited. I now know that BP drops quite low for a while after strenuous exercise. I’d say that she didn’t know that. But you’ve had the opposite experience. Or was your run much earlier in the day? I’ve done almost no running since 19th Apr and the hot walk that nearly killed me (figuratively speaking) was 20th Apr.
@Jane Thank you. Who knows – we may get our weight loss results when we go back to lower carbs/calories again. I truly hope so I was a bit panicky this morning about waking up early to an alarm and getting to the surgeon on time, as well as wondering what he would say so yes, this morning’s reading could well have been affected by that. Last night being high was a shock though. The surgeon was really lovely and David has an MRI on Sunday to see what the next step is. But it's his knee, and a long way from life or death decisions thankfully. MIL is having another op tomorrow, and there's at least one more in her near future. Now she's split her large toenail in 2 and didn't even feel it happen - she's Type II as well as all her other problems.
I’m so sorry you’ve had symptoms again! Glad that you solved it quickly though. The only supplement I’d be willing to try again would be gastrolyte because it’s low dosage, but I want to give a fair go to Mauricio’s recommendations at the moment – unless things get worse. Blood fizzing in your heart is a good description! Your BP is awesome, wow! And it’s amazing to see the changes for the better in your pulse. It really gives you the will power to continue doesn’t it?
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GrannyMayOz wrote: »@Wabmester I eat plenty of salt and my understanding is that if you eat salt, your potassium will remain preserved?
That's my understanding too. We initially lose sodium when there are ketones in the urine. If you lose too much sodium, the body will waste potassium in an effort to preserve the remaining sodium. So you can keep the potassium by ensuring you have plenty of sodium.
(And, yes, my run was much earlier in the day. We're not as concerned about short-term squirts of cortisol here as much as chronically high levels due to diet, exercise, and other stressors.)0 -
Understood *May is nodding* 0
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With all this talk of fudge and milk chocolate, you're making me feel guilty for mentioning chocolate. I meant DARK chocolate. Almost pure cacao. That other stuff is evil candy.
Can you help me with this? I found some at the store. It was at least 80%, so seemingly it would work. But the carb count could end up putting me over for the day if I eat too much. Do you just eat a small portion to keep it in your macros?0 -
I have some 100% bars that I eat with a bit of nut butter. My carb level is probably higher than yours, so yeah, eat the 80% bar in moderation to keep the carbs in check. Many people eat just one square a day as a treat.0
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Each time I see this title, I still see " Two lovely ladies seeking courting advice"... and giggle0
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I'm ever so glad that's not the case. Happily married 46 years.
Edited to add: I know, that's longer than a lot of you have been born... 0 -
I kind of did that on purpose, just for fun, so I'm glad it gave at least one person a smileKitnthecat wrote: »Each time I see this title, I still see " Two lovely ladies seeking courting advice"... and giggle But yes, Ellen and I are both happily wed. A mere 40 years for me.
@DonP I eat one or two squares of 72%, 80% or 90% chocolate a couple of times a week. It's just a taste that's for sure.
BP before bed (1am) was 130/88 with 59 pulse. BP on waking at 10am (thank goodness, made up on lost sleep in the past week!) 120/78. Pulse 65, but I'd just read a text that my MIL is back in hospital. Yet again. We're all getting invites for the staff 'Christmas in July'.
I gave up with trying to force the additional carbs and calories in yesterday and reverted to what I have been doing for months now. Yesterday's macros were C16, F120, P58, calories 1439 and I dropped 800 grams this morning. Part of that would be sufficient sleep and perhaps partly the lower macro goals. I'm still 500 grams above the weight I achieved on 27th April - and was within 100 grams of on 29th April and 1st May. We'll see what tomorrow brings
For the next couple of days I'll see if I achieve new losses, perhaps in reaction to the higher carb/calorie days. Fingers crossed anyway.
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Consider it a modest carb cycle. Maybe if it works a bit, you'll become more bold.
I did read a study recently that suggests you shouldn't go so high to knock yourself out of ketosis. Apparently, you start making ghrelin once the ketones go away, and that makes you HUNGRY.0 -
Yes, we will see what happens and if it's good news I certainly may do this again. Sweet potato and peas have been wonderful to enjoy. Eeeeek I don't need ghrelin! It even sounds agressive doesn't it? LOL
I had meant to take a ketone reading yesterday morning, but we had to rush out the door. David was seeing a surgeon about a bakers cyst behind his knee, and he may have a meniscal tear - we find out next week after an MRI on Sunday.0 -
Morning, people! No big news here--a mere .2 down this morning, but I'm happy to take it. Any kind of loss is better than a gain. For me, this hasn't really been a fair test about increased carbs/calories except to find out that I wasn't hungry for them a lot of the time. I've fluctuated a few ounces up and down, but that's it. Apparently my body has decided to take a long nap and just does not want to budge. Well, fine and dandy. I'm stubborn too. It will have to give in at some point, yes?
Ghrelin sounds like an ugly gremlin. No, thanks. The ketone sticks I got don't have numbers, just colors. I haven't used one in a while, but will try to remember to do it tomorrow. I don't have that funny taste in my mouth anymore so maybe I'm out of ketosis from eating higher carbs some days.0 -
Yes Ellen, you *will* win!!!
I should have taken a keto reading this morning really. My D-I-L invited me to stay for dinner when I dropped my 2 granddaughters off yesterday. She does that so rarely that I was honoured and happy, and stayed. It was chicken and sweetcorn soup with crusty bread and polyunsaturated margarine, and I had a small amount of each. I did refuse the dessert though. If you could imagine all the sweet carbs in the world, they were all in it. So anyway, I had 38 g carbs yesterday. However, I was down 200 grams this morning. Only 300 grams more (.6 of a pound) until I'm equal to my low weight of nearly 3 weeks ago.
So... have the higher carb/calorie days given me a kick, or would this have happened anyway? I'm still not back down to the weight of 3 weeks ago anyway. But I have certainly decided that there's no point being under 15g carbs per day when I can achieve just as much at under 50g's. I've reset my spreadsheet to have a goal of under 40g per day just to be on the safe side.
Today I feel more at peace and way more energetic than I have to date on this lifestyle. Could be the extra carbs (not calories, because I put that back to my usual 1450, regardless of exercise, and am often under), or it could be my naturopath's recommendation of valerian. Odd that I should finally find my energy under the influence of a calming herb though. I have almost always slept well at night - that's one thing I could win a gold medal for so it's not that the valerian is helping me sleep. So many mysteries, so little time to unravel them all 
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@GrannyMayOz I saw the corn soup and was just a teeny bit envious... Glad it either gave you a boost/didn't hurt you! I haven't changed my 40 carb allotment, but haven't used it very much, either. Like you, I decided that if it doesn't hurt to eat 40 carbs, why not be able to when you want to. So lovely that you're at a place of peace and energy at this point. Is valerian something that can be taken long term? Thinking it might help my sleep. My doctor suggested melatonin and I got some, but hesitant to take it when I read side potential side effects. I do not need more headaches.
I was down .4 this morning, so that's good. Still not at the low point I hit for 5 minutes last month, but at least down. I was very discouraged yesterday--still have a 'hangover'--wondering if I'm just too old for my body to respond significantly to this woe. I'm the oldest person I'm aware of on this forum so wonder if I'm too far gone. Measurements aren't changing, clothes fitting the same. I'm thankful that my labs are improved but I want energy and to be able to move better. And to wear smaller clothes! Don't worry; I won't leave this woe. I'd blow up like an even bigger balloon.
The adult son who lives with us (in a separate apartment) was diagnosed with diabetes yesterday. He's disabled in a way that requires that I will need to oversee/track his meals, etc. He is pretty bummed right now because he loves carbs. He is unable to cook for himself, so much of what he's been eating for breakfast and lunch are carb-laden. He eats the LCHF dinners with my husband and me. The change will not be easy for him. Or me. Ugh. I'd rather that it was me, for many reasons.
Ok. I'll stop whining and have another cup of coffee. 0 -
@Wheatless Yes, valerian is 100% herb, no artificial anything. And you may even find that after a while of learning to sleep well, you may be able to cut it out. It's non-addictive anyway. I used to take it years ago when I was suffering panic attacks. The doctor tried me on anti-depressants. He said "I'm not sure if these will help. Some people think they do". I think I was on them for around a year and my memory got so bad that when my boss spoke to me I couldn't remember how his sentence had begun by the time he got to the end of it! Took me around 6 years to fully get my memory back
So I'm fully into alternative methods of healing now!!! There are no side effects of valerian. Take about an hour or 30 mins before you go to bed. They help you fall asleep quickly and stay asleep, according to the bottle. My experience is lowered blood pressure and feelings of peace - non-drowsy for daytime use.
I'm so pleased you've had a loss, you've worked so hard for it! And I'm sure you're not too far gone; not at all. My stomach and waist have changed very little. My wrists are as skinny as pipe-cleaners! Now that the fat has all gone from my wrists it is starting, very slowly, to come from my back. At some point it's going to have to find, and improve my belly We will get there together, according to our bodies' schedules [queue shaking of sticks at ceremonial effigies].
Oh gosh, I'm so sorry to hear of your son's diagnosis and I know what you mean about 'rather it was you'. I'm sorry that it will mean extra work for you, and a lessening of independence for him. You're not whining - just sharing.
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I enjoyed this little article.
flexibleketogenic.com/2014/11/spiking-ketogenic-diet-for-further.html?m=00 -
Hi my lovely Ellen and May. So glad to hear you are feeling calm and relaxed May and 'allowing' yourself the extra carbs if you want them! I'm sure the way you eat it will all balance out! I totally agree with the wrists getting thinner...my belly HAS too sooner or later!! This is the lovely post menopausal fat shift we suffer giving us our tums when we lose the oestrogen.0
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Very interesting article, May. I'm thinking they specify the carb be bland like rice so we don't get our carb juices going. This morning I grabbed one of my son's apples with the intention of eating a half. After staring at it every time I went into the kitchen I've decided it's too dangerous. I'm sure it would rev up my carb desires.
Whatever the cause of the belly, I got a super share and want it GONE. I hope you're right, Jane, that it will eventually go. Please let it be sooner rather than later!0 -
I wrote the last post on my mobile and yet again it hasnt posted all of it!
Ellen I wrote that in a thread a few weeks ago I read about something called Rhodiola or Radiola. Its a herb that helps with cortisol and sleeping. An adaptogen. I thought I would ask in the Health food shop last week and luckily the guy knew what I meant and I got some. Since then along with the magnesium in the evening I have slept well. As you know I too havent been sleeping well!
Maybe the lovely person who wrote about it will see this and clarify for us but whatever its worked for me so maybe.......0
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