kidneys and calcium
gsp90x
Posts: 416 Member
Hey folks,
So the Beast works at a hospital and he ran into one of the dieticians there yesterday who basically tore a strip off him when he mentioned that I was having success on the keto diet.
In particular the dietician said that it was very hard on the kidneys so I could only stay on for 3 months and then would have to go back to a "regular" diet for at least 3 months.
Secondly they said that it didn't provide enough calcium so I would end up with brittle bones.
The Beast, bless his heart is trying really hard to support me and asked for some information to rebuttle this argument.
I know what the dietician said is misguided but I can't articulate why.
Can anyone point me in the direction of some reading (or tell me straight out) why this is not true and I can do this forever. (I would anyway because I'm getting my life back, but it's nice to be able to justify it with science).
I also have an appointment with another dietician (just to make my own doctor happy) so this info will likely be useful with them as well.
any help in narrowing my search would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
So the Beast works at a hospital and he ran into one of the dieticians there yesterday who basically tore a strip off him when he mentioned that I was having success on the keto diet.
In particular the dietician said that it was very hard on the kidneys so I could only stay on for 3 months and then would have to go back to a "regular" diet for at least 3 months.
Secondly they said that it didn't provide enough calcium so I would end up with brittle bones.
The Beast, bless his heart is trying really hard to support me and asked for some information to rebuttle this argument.
I know what the dietician said is misguided but I can't articulate why.
Can anyone point me in the direction of some reading (or tell me straight out) why this is not true and I can do this forever. (I would anyway because I'm getting my life back, but it's nice to be able to justify it with science).
I also have an appointment with another dietician (just to make my own doctor happy) so this info will likely be useful with them as well.
any help in narrowing my search would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
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Replies
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The kidney thing comes from the misconception that low carb is high protein. Since it's not, keto doesn't change the protein amount, and therefore, doesn't tax the kidneys any more than a "normal" diet.
There can also be plenty of calcium in a ketogenic diet. More importantly, the calcium is usually more easily absorbed in the absence of competing compounds and the increased presence of phosphorous, which is needed to balance the calcium. There is plenty of calcium in leafy greens and boney fish to fulfill your calcium needs.
Check out Dr Peter Attia's blog and talks. They'll help provide good explanations for it all.0 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »The kidney thing comes from the misconception that low carb is high protein. Since it's not, keto doesn't change the protein amount, and therefore, doesn't tax the kidneys any more than a "normal" diet.
There can also be plenty of calcium in a ketogenic diet. More importantly, the calcium is usually more easily absorbed in the absence of competing compounds and the increased presence of phosphorous, which is needed to balance the calcium. There is plenty of calcium in leafy greens and boney fish to fulfill your calcium needs.
Check out Dr Peter Attia's blog and talks. They'll help provide good explanations for it all.
Does this mean that it's important to keep protein low? I've had problems with my kidneys since I was 5 years old and my kidney function is not that great now. So if I should be keeping my protein low, I definitely need to know about that. Gsp, thank you for asking this.
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I think it's because of ketoacidosis. Ketones are acidic, and high levels lower your blood pH. Acidic blood leads to mineral loss, including bone calcium. It may be a concern for long-term ketogenic diets even if they don't meet the medical definition of "ketoacidosis."
The body seems to be able to maintain blood pH in the short term during ketosis, but the long term is less certain.0 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »The kidney thing comes from the misconception that low carb is high protein. Since it's not, keto doesn't change the protein amount, and therefore, doesn't tax the kidneys any more than a "normal" diet.
There can also be plenty of calcium in a ketogenic diet. More importantly, the calcium is usually more easily absorbed in the absence of competing compounds and the increased presence of phosphorous, which is needed to balance the calcium. There is plenty of calcium in leafy greens and boney fish to fulfill your calcium needs.
Check out Dr Peter Attia's blog and talks. They'll help provide good explanations for it all.
Does this mean that it's important to keep protein low? I've had problems with my kidneys since I was 5 years old and my kidney function is not that great now. So if I should be keeping my protein low, I definitely need to know about that. Gsp, thank you for asking this.
In your case, you'd keep it where your doctor recommends keeping it. Whether it's "low" per se would probably depend on who you ask. Just hold your protein constant and adjust your fat and carbohydrate levels to fill in the rest depending on your goals.0 -
Thanks for your response. I don't have a regular doctor at the moment in which I could ask what they recommend. But I'll certainly ask about that the next time I find myself in a doctor's office.Dragonwolf wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »The kidney thing comes from the misconception that low carb is high protein. Since it's not, keto doesn't change the protein amount, and therefore, doesn't tax the kidneys any more than a "normal" diet.
There can also be plenty of calcium in a ketogenic diet. More importantly, the calcium is usually more easily absorbed in the absence of competing compounds and the increased presence of phosphorous, which is needed to balance the calcium. There is plenty of calcium in leafy greens and boney fish to fulfill your calcium needs.
Check out Dr Peter Attia's blog and talks. They'll help provide good explanations for it all.
Does this mean that it's important to keep protein low? I've had problems with my kidneys since I was 5 years old and my kidney function is not that great now. So if I should be keeping my protein low, I definitely need to know about that. Gsp, thank you for asking this.
In your case, you'd keep it where your doctor recommends keeping it. Whether it's "low" per se would probably depend on who you ask. Just hold your protein constant and adjust your fat and carbohydrate levels to fill in the rest depending on your goals.
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Vitamin D levels seem to be key in moving calcium but requires Vitamin K2 because it is what tells the calcium to go into the bones and teeth vs arteries, etc. When low on K2 calcium can wind up in you arteries. Some think with good levels of D and K2 the calcium in arteries can be removed from a lot of research I read over the winter.0
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Vitamin D levels seem to be key in moving calcium but requires Vitamin K2 because it is what tells the calcium to go into the bones and teeth vs arteries, etc. When low on K2 calcium can wind up in you arteries. Some think with good levels of D and K2 the calcium in arteries can be removed from a lot of research I read over the winter.
Reason #42 to eat more (grass-fed) butter.
But seriously, yes. K2 has been known to aid in unblocking arteries and improving cardiovascular health. It's also Weston Price's "Activator X" that he found some hundred-odd years ago that is awesome for dental health. I
K2. 0 -
I'd be interested to see though, the pH level of a carb addicts blood versus a keto adapted person. Sugar causes the blood to become acidic as well, so I'm wondering..... does it make a big difference? Unless you're eating huge amounts of plants, won't it end up acidic anyway?0
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If you want a study that says ketogenic diets are OK for your bones, there's this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/248006730 -
If you want a study that says ketogenic diets are OK for your bones, there's this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24800673
Awesome find.
Historical note -- the bone loss claims stem from the old classical ketogenic diet used on kids with epilepsy. The problem was that it was basically a soybean oil based meal replacement shake (think Ensure or Slimfast, without the sugar), and they restricted calories (and water, for a while). All of the side effect they found (and not just the bone loss, but the constipation, nutrition deficiencies, and a host of other "dangers of keto"), then, were arguably due to the artificial nutritional environment, inferior nutrients (since all the nutrients were the synthetic ones used to fortify cereals and whatnot, which are known to have inferior bio-availability), and restricting the calories of growing children.0 -
You can pretty much find any research that supports your claim. Make sure you find legitimate research studies and not articles backed by a product. My advise is to have your blood tested. If your diet is hard on your kidneys it will show in your blood work. Ask your doctor when you should get it tested0
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kasie1bear wrote: »You can pretty much find any research that supports your claim. Make sure you find legitimate research studies and not articles backed by a product. My advise is to have your blood tested. If your diet is hard on your kidneys it will show in your blood work. Ask your doctor when you should get it tested
The ketogenic diet originated as a way of eating to manage epilepsy, and a very similar diet was used to manage diabetes prior to the advent of exogenous insulin. It was only in the past 30 years or so that people found that it's a useful tool to help lose weight (arguably due to the insulin-lowering effects it has). PubMed, et al, have no shortage of research studies on the matter.0 -
kasie1bear wrote: »You can pretty much find any research that supports your claim. Make sure you find legitimate research studies and not articles backed by a product. My advise is to have your blood tested. If your diet is hard on your kidneys it will show in your blood work. Ask your doctor when you should get it tested
Agreed. Greatly, greatly, agreed.
Good idea for me personally to have my blood tested to feel reassured, thank you.
But part of that is people are going to come to me with studies that show it's not good for me, so I'd like to be at least armed with a few that can counter their arguments.
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Sadly that ends up being a pissing contest of who has the most studies tilted in their favor. Telling people your doctor says everything has improved since you started and that you will continue to monitor your health under the doctor's supervision should shut everyone up.0
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Real question about this, though...
On my most recent labs, I was slightly dehydrated, so my kidney numbers were up a tiny bit, but I was slightly low on calcium...anyone know what that means, or why someone who eats a lot of heavy cream, cheese, and such would be low on calcium? Didn't know if I needed to pair my supplements together or anything...0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »Real question about this, though...
On my most recent labs, I was slightly dehydrated, so my kidney numbers were up a tiny bit, but I was slightly low on calcium...anyone know what that means, or why someone who eats a lot of heavy cream, cheese, and such would be low on calcium? Didn't know if I needed to pair my supplements together or anything...
What were your calcium numbers before? It's possible you were deficient before and your numbers just haven't gotten all the way back up yet.
I haven't looked much into it, but Loren Cordain ( coined the term Paleo diet) says that dairy is actually counterproductive to body calcium levels, basically because it's too much and there's no phosphorous to aid it. The result is about like eating a bunch of green veggies for iron and still being anemic (non-heme iron needs vitamin c to aid absorption).
If it concerns you, check out the calcium- phosphorous balance.0 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Real question about this, though...
On my most recent labs, I was slightly dehydrated, so my kidney numbers were up a tiny bit, but I was slightly low on calcium...anyone know what that means, or why someone who eats a lot of heavy cream, cheese, and such would be low on calcium? Didn't know if I needed to pair my supplements together or anything...
What were your calcium numbers before? It's possible you were deficient before and your numbers just haven't gotten all the way back up yet.
I haven't looked much into it, but Loren Cordain ( coined the term Paleo diet) says that dairy is actually counterproductive to body calcium levels, basically because it's too much and there's no phosphorous to aid it. The result is about like eating a bunch of green veggies for iron and still being anemic (non-heme iron needs vitamin c to aid absorption).
If it concerns you, check out the calcium- phosphorous balance.
Calcium Level
Date Result Reference Range Flag
20-Apr-15 8.1 MG/DL 8.5-10.1 L
27-Oct-14 8.7 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
16-May-14 8.8 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
21-Apr-14 8.7 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
12-Mar-13 8.3 MG/DL 8.5-10.1 L
9-Jul-12 9.6 MG/DL 8.8-10.5
21-Jun-11 8.2 MG/DL 8.8-10.5 L
30-Jan-09 9.2 MG/DL 8.8-10.5
So it's kind of in range... but it dropped since going LCHF putting me back in low results. I don't know how to intake more phosphorus. I have cut down my dairy levels slightly, as I've cut out a bit of cream cheese and sour cream and knocked down my heavy cream some... So more cheese than anything else for me right now...
Phosphorus isn't something I had tested, as far as I can see.... And as point of reference, I have only upped my dairy consumption some - I don't think I've doubled it or anything. I cut out milk years ago (aggravated my allergies, etc.), but I never gave up cheese....0 -
Ketones = acid. Potassium might help:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19596731
Oral potassium citrate is an effective preventive supplement against kidney stones in children who receive the KD, achieving its goal of urine alkalinization.
Edit: this particular study suggests that potassium only helped reduce the urine acidity, not the blood acidity. So it helped with kidney stones due to Ca, but not necessarily Ca loss in other tissues.0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Real question about this, though...
On my most recent labs, I was slightly dehydrated, so my kidney numbers were up a tiny bit, but I was slightly low on calcium...anyone know what that means, or why someone who eats a lot of heavy cream, cheese, and such would be low on calcium? Didn't know if I needed to pair my supplements together or anything...
What were your calcium numbers before? It's possible you were deficient before and your numbers just haven't gotten all the way back up yet.
I haven't looked much into it, but Loren Cordain ( coined the term Paleo diet) says that dairy is actually counterproductive to body calcium levels, basically because it's too much and there's no phosphorous to aid it. The result is about like eating a bunch of green veggies for iron and still being anemic (non-heme iron needs vitamin c to aid absorption).
If it concerns you, check out the calcium- phosphorous balance.
Calcium Level
Date Result Reference Range Flag
20-Apr-15 8.1 MG/DL 8.5-10.1 L
27-Oct-14 8.7 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
16-May-14 8.8 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
21-Apr-14 8.7 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
12-Mar-13 8.3 MG/DL 8.5-10.1 L
9-Jul-12 9.6 MG/DL 8.8-10.5
21-Jun-11 8.2 MG/DL 8.8-10.5 L
30-Jan-09 9.2 MG/DL 8.8-10.5
So it's kind of in range... but it dropped since going LCHF putting me back in low results. I don't know how to intake more phosphorus. I have cut down my dairy levels slightly, as I've cut out a bit of cream cheese and sour cream and knocked down my heavy cream some... So more cheese than anything else for me right now...
Phosphorus isn't something I had tested, as far as I can see.... And as point of reference, I have only upped my dairy consumption some - I don't think I've doubled it or anything. I cut out milk years ago (aggravated my allergies, etc.), but I never gave up cheese....
It kind of looks like the drop might be coincidental. You've played hopscotch on the low end for years. I'd personally see about getting a second test in another month or two and see how it stacks up to the rest of your past numbers. If it's the same as before or even lower, then it may be a problem. If it's higher then it's more likely to have been an anomaly.
Also, what are your Vitamin D levels? The body can't assimilate Calcium very well without sufficient Vitamin D. Vitamin K2 is beneficial for tissue health, in general, including bone health. So it might be worth trying to make sure you're getting sufficient amounts of both (Vitamin D, ideally, via the sun; vitamin K2 by either high-quality, grass fed butter (grass fed seems to be required in this case) or a supplement). Between the cheese, HWC, and various other things like broccoli and other green vegetables, you should be fine on the amount of calcium you're taking in, and it may be the cofactor nutrients that are your problem.
Here's a great, more detailed explanation for what I'm talking about -- http://paleoleap.com/calcium/0 -
Vitamin D levels play a role in calcium levels I read too. Vitamin K especially Vitamin K2 is required to tell the calcium where to go. If low on K2 some info state's calcium can be deposited in arteries vs only in teeth and bones.
The body seems to manage quite well if it gets what it really needs when we eat. 0 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Real question about this, though...
On my most recent labs, I was slightly dehydrated, so my kidney numbers were up a tiny bit, but I was slightly low on calcium...anyone know what that means, or why someone who eats a lot of heavy cream, cheese, and such would be low on calcium? Didn't know if I needed to pair my supplements together or anything...
What were your calcium numbers before? It's possible you were deficient before and your numbers just haven't gotten all the way back up yet.
I haven't looked much into it, but Loren Cordain ( coined the term Paleo diet) says that dairy is actually counterproductive to body calcium levels, basically because it's too much and there's no phosphorous to aid it. The result is about like eating a bunch of green veggies for iron and still being anemic (non-heme iron needs vitamin c to aid absorption).
If it concerns you, check out the calcium- phosphorous balance.
Calcium Level
Date Result Reference Range Flag
20-Apr-15 8.1 MG/DL 8.5-10.1 L
27-Oct-14 8.7 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
16-May-14 8.8 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
21-Apr-14 8.7 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
12-Mar-13 8.3 MG/DL 8.5-10.1 L
9-Jul-12 9.6 MG/DL 8.8-10.5
21-Jun-11 8.2 MG/DL 8.8-10.5 L
30-Jan-09 9.2 MG/DL 8.8-10.5
So it's kind of in range... but it dropped since going LCHF putting me back in low results. I don't know how to intake more phosphorus. I have cut down my dairy levels slightly, as I've cut out a bit of cream cheese and sour cream and knocked down my heavy cream some... So more cheese than anything else for me right now...
Phosphorus isn't something I had tested, as far as I can see.... And as point of reference, I have only upped my dairy consumption some - I don't think I've doubled it or anything. I cut out milk years ago (aggravated my allergies, etc.), but I never gave up cheese....
It kind of looks like the drop might be coincidental. You've played hopscotch on the low end for years. I'd personally see about getting a second test in another month or two and see how it stacks up to the rest of your past numbers. If it's the same as before or even lower, then it may be a problem. If it's higher then it's more likely to have been an anomaly.
Also, what are your Vitamin D levels? The body can't assimilate Calcium very well without sufficient Vitamin D. Vitamin K2 is beneficial for tissue health, in general, including bone health. So it might be worth trying to make sure you're getting sufficient amounts of both (Vitamin D, ideally, via the sun; vitamin K2 by either high-quality, grass fed butter (grass fed seems to be required in this case) or a supplement). Between the cheese, HWC, and various other things like broccoli and other green vegetables, you should be fine on the amount of calcium you're taking in, and it may be the cofactor nutrients that are your problem.
Here's a great, more detailed explanation for what I'm talking about -- http://paleoleap.com/calcium/
25-Hydroxy Vitamin D Total (D3 results were exactly the same as below. D2 has been consistently <4 ng/mL with no comment from doc.
Date Result Reference Range Flag
24-Apr-15 58 ng/mL 30-100
30-Oct-14 46 ng/mL 30-100
23-Apr-14 46 ng/mL 30-100
9-Jul-12 32 ng/mL 30-100
21-Jun-11 24 ng/mL 30-100 L
I've gotten it up significantly since I was diagnosed as deficient in 2011, and it's "in range" now, but I'm still supplementing. Since I moved to making my tea with the primal egg recipe, I've been adding my Vitamin D3 drops into my last bit of tea, so it is in with the heavy cream to aid absorption... NOTE: I started this sometime AFTER the testing in April.
I've read about K2, but I'm unfamiliar with what it is in. Unfortunately, I can't afford grassfed butter currently. And I'm one of those who sunburns super easily - and I only have two shades, red and white, and after burning, I go back to being pale. My fiance jokes that I have no melanin in my body (he's native, so he bronzes nicely after walking through the sunlight once or twice. So I don't get much of any sunlight exposure directly. Anything I get must be through sunscreen, which negates the effect. Off to go look at more info on K2! (Is this related to "vitamin K" that heart patients on blood thinners are supposed to avoid? I remember my boss talking about not being able to eat the skins of pickles and cucumbers due to that...)0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Real question about this, though...
On my most recent labs, I was slightly dehydrated, so my kidney numbers were up a tiny bit, but I was slightly low on calcium...anyone know what that means, or why someone who eats a lot of heavy cream, cheese, and such would be low on calcium? Didn't know if I needed to pair my supplements together or anything...
What were your calcium numbers before? It's possible you were deficient before and your numbers just haven't gotten all the way back up yet.
I haven't looked much into it, but Loren Cordain ( coined the term Paleo diet) says that dairy is actually counterproductive to body calcium levels, basically because it's too much and there's no phosphorous to aid it. The result is about like eating a bunch of green veggies for iron and still being anemic (non-heme iron needs vitamin c to aid absorption).
If it concerns you, check out the calcium- phosphorous balance.
Calcium Level
Date Result Reference Range Flag
20-Apr-15 8.1 MG/DL 8.5-10.1 L
27-Oct-14 8.7 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
16-May-14 8.8 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
21-Apr-14 8.7 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
12-Mar-13 8.3 MG/DL 8.5-10.1 L
9-Jul-12 9.6 MG/DL 8.8-10.5
21-Jun-11 8.2 MG/DL 8.8-10.5 L
30-Jan-09 9.2 MG/DL 8.8-10.5
So it's kind of in range... but it dropped since going LCHF putting me back in low results. I don't know how to intake more phosphorus. I have cut down my dairy levels slightly, as I've cut out a bit of cream cheese and sour cream and knocked down my heavy cream some... So more cheese than anything else for me right now...
Phosphorus isn't something I had tested, as far as I can see.... And as point of reference, I have only upped my dairy consumption some - I don't think I've doubled it or anything. I cut out milk years ago (aggravated my allergies, etc.), but I never gave up cheese....
It kind of looks like the drop might be coincidental. You've played hopscotch on the low end for years. I'd personally see about getting a second test in another month or two and see how it stacks up to the rest of your past numbers. If it's the same as before or even lower, then it may be a problem. If it's higher then it's more likely to have been an anomaly.
Also, what are your Vitamin D levels? The body can't assimilate Calcium very well without sufficient Vitamin D. Vitamin K2 is beneficial for tissue health, in general, including bone health. So it might be worth trying to make sure you're getting sufficient amounts of both (Vitamin D, ideally, via the sun; vitamin K2 by either high-quality, grass fed butter (grass fed seems to be required in this case) or a supplement). Between the cheese, HWC, and various other things like broccoli and other green vegetables, you should be fine on the amount of calcium you're taking in, and it may be the cofactor nutrients that are your problem.
Here's a great, more detailed explanation for what I'm talking about -- http://paleoleap.com/calcium/
25-Hydroxy Vitamin D Total (D3 results were exactly the same as below. D2 has been consistently <4 ng/mL with no comment from doc.
Date Result Reference Range Flag
24-Apr-15 58 ng/mL 30-100
30-Oct-14 46 ng/mL 30-100
23-Apr-14 46 ng/mL 30-100
9-Jul-12 32 ng/mL 30-100
21-Jun-11 24 ng/mL 30-100 L
I've gotten it up significantly since I was diagnosed as deficient in 2011, and it's "in range" now, but I'm still supplementing. Since I moved to making my tea with the primal egg recipe, I've been adding my Vitamin D3 drops into my last bit of tea, so it is in with the heavy cream to aid absorption... NOTE: I started this sometime AFTER the testing in April.
I've read about K2, but I'm unfamiliar with what it is in. Unfortunately, I can't afford grassfed butter currently. And I'm one of those who sunburns super easily - and I only have two shades, red and white, and after burning, I go back to being pale. My fiance jokes that I have no melanin in my body (he's native, so he bronzes nicely after walking through the sunlight once or twice. So I don't get much of any sunlight exposure directly. Anything I get must be through sunscreen, which negates the effect. Off to go look at more info on K2! (Is this related to "vitamin K" that heart patients on blood thinners are supposed to avoid? I remember my boss talking about not being able to eat the skins of pickles and cucumbers due to that...)
K1, the form in plants, is technically different from K2, the form in butter and other grass fed dairy, so I don't really know on the blood thinner front. K2 is known to clear arteries, reducing the risk of heart attack and other cardiovascular issues, but K1 doesn't have this same effect. According to Chris Kresser, though, K1 is apparently used to clot the blood, which may be why your boss can't eat foods high in K1 (http://chriskresser.com/vitamin-k2-the-missing-nutrient/).
He also provides this information:Foods high in vitamin K2- Natto
- Hard cheese
- Soft cheese
- Egg yolk
- Butter
- Chicken liver
- Salami
- Chicken breast
- Ground beef
On the other hand, fermented foods, however, such as sauerkraut, cheese and natto (a soy dish popular in Japan), contain substantial amounts of vitamin K2. Natto contains the highest concentration of K2 of any food measured; nearly all of it is present as MK-7, which research has shown to be a highly effective form. A recent study demonstrated that MK-7 increased the percentage of osteocalcin in humans three times more powerfully than did vitamin K1. (Schurgers & Vermeer, 2000, pp. 298-307)
[...]
It is important to note that commercial butter is not a significantly high source of vitamin K2. Dr. Weston A. Price, who was the first to elucidate the role of vitamin K2 in human health (though he called it “Activator X” at the time) analyzed over 20,000 samples of butter sent to him from various parts of the world. As mentioned previously in this paper, he found that the Activator X concentration varied 50-fold. Animals grazing on vitamin K-rich cereal grasses, especially wheat grass, and alfalfa in a lush green state of growth produced fat with the highest amounts of Activator X, but the soil in which the pasture was grown also influenced the quality of the butter. It was only the vitamin-rich butter grown in three feet or more of healthy top soil that had such dramatic curing properties when combined with cod liver oil in Dr. Price’s experiments and clinical practice.
Therefore, vitamin K2 levels will not be high in butter from grain-fed cows raised in confinement feedlots. Since the overwhelming majority of butter sold in the U.S. comes from such feedlots, butter is not a significant source of K2 in the diet for most people. This is yet another argument for obtaining raw butter from cows raised on green pasture.
So it looks like you could get a fair amount from cheaper sources, though there doesn't seem to be a ton of information on the exact amounts found in foods, and it tends to be highly variable. And, of course, if you're deficient, supplementation for a time can still be helpful.0 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Real question about this, though...
On my most recent labs, I was slightly dehydrated, so my kidney numbers were up a tiny bit, but I was slightly low on calcium...anyone know what that means, or why someone who eats a lot of heavy cream, cheese, and such would be low on calcium? Didn't know if I needed to pair my supplements together or anything...
What were your calcium numbers before? It's possible you were deficient before and your numbers just haven't gotten all the way back up yet.
I haven't looked much into it, but Loren Cordain ( coined the term Paleo diet) says that dairy is actually counterproductive to body calcium levels, basically because it's too much and there's no phosphorous to aid it. The result is about like eating a bunch of green veggies for iron and still being anemic (non-heme iron needs vitamin c to aid absorption).
If it concerns you, check out the calcium- phosphorous balance.
Calcium Level
Date Result Reference Range Flag
20-Apr-15 8.1 MG/DL 8.5-10.1 L
27-Oct-14 8.7 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
16-May-14 8.8 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
21-Apr-14 8.7 MG/DL 8.5-10.1
12-Mar-13 8.3 MG/DL 8.5-10.1 L
9-Jul-12 9.6 MG/DL 8.8-10.5
21-Jun-11 8.2 MG/DL 8.8-10.5 L
30-Jan-09 9.2 MG/DL 8.8-10.5
So it's kind of in range... but it dropped since going LCHF putting me back in low results. I don't know how to intake more phosphorus. I have cut down my dairy levels slightly, as I've cut out a bit of cream cheese and sour cream and knocked down my heavy cream some... So more cheese than anything else for me right now...
Phosphorus isn't something I had tested, as far as I can see.... And as point of reference, I have only upped my dairy consumption some - I don't think I've doubled it or anything. I cut out milk years ago (aggravated my allergies, etc.), but I never gave up cheese....
It kind of looks like the drop might be coincidental. You've played hopscotch on the low end for years. I'd personally see about getting a second test in another month or two and see how it stacks up to the rest of your past numbers. If it's the same as before or even lower, then it may be a problem. If it's higher then it's more likely to have been an anomaly.
Also, what are your Vitamin D levels? The body can't assimilate Calcium very well without sufficient Vitamin D. Vitamin K2 is beneficial for tissue health, in general, including bone health. So it might be worth trying to make sure you're getting sufficient amounts of both (Vitamin D, ideally, via the sun; vitamin K2 by either high-quality, grass fed butter (grass fed seems to be required in this case) or a supplement). Between the cheese, HWC, and various other things like broccoli and other green vegetables, you should be fine on the amount of calcium you're taking in, and it may be the cofactor nutrients that are your problem.
Here's a great, more detailed explanation for what I'm talking about -- http://paleoleap.com/calcium/
25-Hydroxy Vitamin D Total (D3 results were exactly the same as below. D2 has been consistently <4 ng/mL with no comment from doc.
Date Result Reference Range Flag
24-Apr-15 58 ng/mL 30-100
30-Oct-14 46 ng/mL 30-100
23-Apr-14 46 ng/mL 30-100
9-Jul-12 32 ng/mL 30-100
21-Jun-11 24 ng/mL 30-100 L
I've gotten it up significantly since I was diagnosed as deficient in 2011, and it's "in range" now, but I'm still supplementing. Since I moved to making my tea with the primal egg recipe, I've been adding my Vitamin D3 drops into my last bit of tea, so it is in with the heavy cream to aid absorption... NOTE: I started this sometime AFTER the testing in April.
I've read about K2, but I'm unfamiliar with what it is in. Unfortunately, I can't afford grassfed butter currently. And I'm one of those who sunburns super easily - and I only have two shades, red and white, and after burning, I go back to being pale. My fiance jokes that I have no melanin in my body (he's native, so he bronzes nicely after walking through the sunlight once or twice. So I don't get much of any sunlight exposure directly. Anything I get must be through sunscreen, which negates the effect. Off to go look at more info on K2! (Is this related to "vitamin K" that heart patients on blood thinners are supposed to avoid? I remember my boss talking about not being able to eat the skins of pickles and cucumbers due to that...)
K1, the form in plants, is technically different from K2, the form in butter and other grass fed dairy, so I don't really know on the blood thinner front. K2 is known to clear arteries, reducing the risk of heart attack and other cardiovascular issues, but K1 doesn't have this same effect. According to Chris Kresser, though, K1 is apparently used to clot the blood, which may be why your boss can't eat foods high in K1 (http://chriskresser.com/vitamin-k2-the-missing-nutrient/).
He also provides this information:Foods high in vitamin K2- Natto
- Hard cheese
- Soft cheese
- Egg yolk
- Butter
- Chicken liver
- Salami
- Chicken breast
- Ground beef
On the other hand, fermented foods, however, such as sauerkraut, cheese and natto (a soy dish popular in Japan), contain substantial amounts of vitamin K2. Natto contains the highest concentration of K2 of any food measured; nearly all of it is present as MK-7, which research has shown to be a highly effective form. A recent study demonstrated that MK-7 increased the percentage of osteocalcin in humans three times more powerfully than did vitamin K1. (Schurgers & Vermeer, 2000, pp. 298-307)
[...]
It is important to note that commercial butter is not a significantly high source of vitamin K2. Dr. Weston A. Price, who was the first to elucidate the role of vitamin K2 in human health (though he called it “Activator X” at the time) analyzed over 20,000 samples of butter sent to him from various parts of the world. As mentioned previously in this paper, he found that the Activator X concentration varied 50-fold. Animals grazing on vitamin K-rich cereal grasses, especially wheat grass, and alfalfa in a lush green state of growth produced fat with the highest amounts of Activator X, but the soil in which the pasture was grown also influenced the quality of the butter. It was only the vitamin-rich butter grown in three feet or more of healthy top soil that had such dramatic curing properties when combined with cod liver oil in Dr. Price’s experiments and clinical practice.
Therefore, vitamin K2 levels will not be high in butter from grain-fed cows raised in confinement feedlots. Since the overwhelming majority of butter sold in the U.S. comes from such feedlots, butter is not a significant source of K2 in the diet for most people. This is yet another argument for obtaining raw butter from cows raised on green pasture.
So it looks like you could get a fair amount from cheaper sources, though there doesn't seem to be a ton of information on the exact amounts found in foods, and it tends to be highly variable. And, of course, if you're deficient, supplementation for a time can still be helpful.
I had gotten burned out on eggs so I hadn't had as many, but I'm in week 3 or 4 of having a Primal variation of my tea, so I'm getting at least 10 eggs a week now. Dunno what natto is (oh, saw it is soy - yeah, not happening, soy and I are NOT friends...lol); I eat a decent amount of hard cheese (usually 2-4 oz a day); soft cheeses not as much since I cut my sweets down - I like using cream cheese and cheddar to stuff pieces of steak; butter - any time I can!; chicken livers (going to try my hand at making pate this week - have NEVER been a liver fan; salami is expensive - how is pepperoni in comparison - they're related, right?; chicken breasts I usually do in a sauce or butter because my guy likes them and they are much cheaper than thighs; and ground beef is a weekly if not more often occurrence in my house... So I guess I should be okay there. Not sure how much of this change has been since the bloodwork - I know the eggs for sure and cream cheese, too, so I guess I won't worry to much until I do bloodwork again in October. LOL
If I can afford it next check, I'll get one thing of Kerrygold butter for me (leave the regular stuff for my guy) since my Walmart finally started carrying it. It's just twice as expensive for half as much...LOL. But for using like 1 TBSP a day, in conjunction with the other stuff, I can see it. Might try it again in my LOADED tea, since I've got the eggs in there and all...I'd cut it out because I didn't like it in just the BP version. I might also see if any of my local farmers carry it at all at the market, since I haven't made it yet this year! LOL0 -
https://drvitaminsolutions.com/products/Life-Extension-Super-K-with-Advanced-K2-Complex-90-Softgels
This is the Vitamin K complex we currently take. As mentioned it is thought to work with Vitamin D3 to get calcium to deposit in the bones and teeth and out of the arteries for example.0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »And I'm one of those who sunburns super easily - and I only have two shades, red and white, and after burning, I go back to being pale. My fiance jokes that I have no melanin in my body (he's native, so he bronzes nicely after walking through the sunlight once or twice. So I don't get much of any sunlight exposure directly. Anything I get must be through sunscreen, which negates the effect.
Oh how I feel your pain. I can get sunburned in the kitchen doing dishes if I stay too long after the sun rises. My burn factor is so high that I have to reapply every half hour or so in direct sun, no matter how high the SPF.
However, it is possible to get your vitamin D in safely. Assuming you are in a lattitude that gets strong enough sunlight, you only need direct exposure on an area the size of your face and hands for a total of fifteen minutes a day. I would burn like toast if I tried to do this in one go, but you can break it up. I try to wait for the sun to be up and make coffee in the streaming morning sunlight. I park far away from stores and count the time I spend in the sun walking in and out of the building. If i am just taking a short drive, I don't wear sunscreen and don't freak about the sun on my hands. If I am a passenger, I play with having different bits of skin in sun, first one forearm, then the other, then the underside, then my face. Otherwise I keep myself shaded at all times. Since I moved to a sunnier climate, my chronically low vitamin D levels have completely reversed, even though I am majorly sun phobic.0 -
1. You guys make me glad I have enough Native American to tan and not usually burn. My change in diet has even stopped me from my usual "first strong sun of the summer" burn. (That is something else -- a number of foods, particularly coconut oil, are known for their sun protective effects, both when used topically and when consumed on a regular basis. You might find yourself a little more tolerant to the sun with LCHF. Maybe at least enough to be able to not have to hide in a curtained room all day.)
2. You sound like my husband and boss. They're both about as ginger as you can get. So much so, that when my boss went to Australia late last year or early this year (I forget exactly when, but I know it was summer there), I joked that he'd end up roasting like a turkey. :laugh:0
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