Moving on from Stronglifts. Also, 5/3/1

taunto

I am currently in week 16 of stronglifts. Although I took a break from lifting for 2 weeks due to work so lets call it week 14. I absolutely love stronglifts. I love its simplicity, I don't have to know anything outside of which day it is (once you get to be decent with the forms etc). I truly do love stronglifts. But even though on stronglifts itself Mehdi says you can continue with stronglifts... I keep reading that it is a beginner program and so am I to assume wrong that at one point we should move on from SL? And if so, when?

Keep in mind that even though I'm in week 14, my lifts are NOT anywhere near what Mehdi's spreadsheet suggests for week 12. Following is what his spreadsheet says I should be at in week 12 and what I'm at in week 14

ETA: These numbers are my lifting numbers, not 1RM
Squats
should be: 237 lb
Actual: 210 lb (and even that is with GREAT difficulty)

Bench Press
should be: 138 lb
Actual: 110 lbs
OHP
should be: 138 lb
Actual: 94 lb
Barbell Row
Should be:160 lb
Actual: 132 lb
Deadlift
Should be: 275
Actual: 220

ETA: The second part is... should I be worried about the low numbers? I mean for a guy my size (5'9" and 230 lbs) these numbers look awfully low.

The third part is... I've heard of 5/3/1 a decent bit. Honestly, not thrilled about leaving SL but if I have to move on to something else, should I be looking at 5/3/1 or something?

Thank you all for the help

*All weights are converted from kg to lbs because I know you Yanks love to be rebel and use silly measuring standards

tross0924

I love both programs. The main advantage of 5/3/1 is that it allows you to continue to progress . . . but slowly.

If you're still seeing improvements with stronglifts, then I'd recommend staying with that program until you stop seeing them. Even if you've stalled a bit with strong lifts, do a reset or 2 before moving on. Increasing by 5 lbs a workout is a lot faster than 5 lbs a month.

If you're well and truly stuck then 5/3/1 is a great program to move onto.

As for the low numbers, don't be too concerned about them. As long as you're demanding more from yourself each day then you're going in the right direction. Lifting more than you did last week/month is the only thing that matters. You are your only competition.

*And thanks for converting to pounds. It's way to early for math! :-)

SideSteel

In my opinion you should be using a linear based progression model until you stop making gains on a linear based progression model.

At that point, you should consider some form of periodization.


Are your lifts still going up, and are you in an energy surplus or an energy deficit?

EDIT: Post above mine covered it nicely.

taunto

I love both programs. The main advantage of 5/3/1 is that it allows you to continue to progress . . . but slowly.

If you're still seeing improvements with stronglifts, then I'd recommend staying with that program until you stop seeing them. Even if you've stalled a bit with strong lifts, do a reset or 2 before moving on. Increasing by 5 lbs a workout is a lot faster than 5 lbs a month.

If you're well and truly stuck then 5/3/1 is a great program to move onto.

As for the low numbers, don't be too concerned about them. As long as you're demanding more from yourself each day then you're going in the right direction. Lifting more than you did last week/month is the only thing that matters. You are your only competition.

*And thanks for converting to pounds. It's way to early for math! :-)

Thank you for the feedback brother. I belive SL and 5/3/1 has similar model of slow progression. SL typically asks me to up my lifts by 2.5 kg (approx 5 lb). Its not that I'm not seeing progress, I am. And I like to think I'm a fairly patient person and not going egomaniac about the low numbers, just worried if I'm missing something.

I did a "reset" a few weeks ago when I took a 2 weeks break. I did started seeing more improvements since then but I think I'm at a stall right now. I will have to give it a week or 2 before I make an actual assessment though. I was just concerned that if after a while SL should be replaced like the training wheels ya know.

In my opinion you should be using a linear based progression model until you stop making gains on a linear based progression model.

At that point, you should consider some form of periodization.


Are your lifts still going up, and are you in an energy surplus or an energy deficit?

EDIT: Post above mine covered it nicely.

I'm sorry but i have no idea what linear based progression models are or what periodization are. Any links to help me understand?

My lifts have been going up till I took the 2 weeks break about 2 weeks ago (so the break started 4 weeks ago). Till then I was feeling energetic etc. But since i got back to it, my lifting numbers have dropped though I am picking it back up however my energy levels have dropped significantly. Might have to do with work load and poor and irregular diet though.

SideSteel

I love both programs. The main advantage of 5/3/1 is that it allows you to continue to progress . . . but slowly.

If you're still seeing improvements with stronglifts, then I'd recommend staying with that program until you stop seeing them. Even if you've stalled a bit with strong lifts, do a reset or 2 before moving on. Increasing by 5 lbs a workout is a lot faster than 5 lbs a month.

If you're well and truly stuck then 5/3/1 is a great program to move onto.

As for the low numbers, don't be too concerned about them. As long as you're demanding more from yourself each day then you're going in the right direction. Lifting more than you did last week/month is the only thing that matters. You are your only competition.

*And thanks for converting to pounds. It's way to early for math! :-)

Thank you for the feedback brother. I belive SL and 5/3/1 has similar model of slow progression. SL typically asks me to up my lifts by 2.5 kg (approx 5 lb). Its not that I'm not seeing progress, I am. And I like to think I'm a fairly patient person and not going egomaniac about the low numbers, just worried if I'm missing something.

I did a "reset" a few weeks ago when I took a 2 weeks break. I did started seeing more improvements since then but I think I'm at a stall right now. I will have to give it a week or 2 before I make an actual assessment though. I was just concerned that if after a while SL should be replaced like the training wheels ya know.

In my opinion you should be using a linear based progression model until you stop making gains on a linear based progression model.

At that point, you should consider some form of periodization.


Are your lifts still going up, and are you in an energy surplus or an energy deficit?

EDIT: Post above mine covered it nicely.

I'm sorry but i have no idea what linear based progression models are or what periodization are. Any links to help me understand?

My lifts have been going up till I took the 2 weeks break about 2 weeks ago (so the break started 4 weeks ago). Till then I was feeling energetic etc. But since i got back to it, my lifting numbers have dropped though I am picking it back up however my energy levels have dropped significantly. Might have to do with work load and poor and irregular diet though.

A linear model is one that has you adding weight to the bar either weekly or per-workout. These models tend to make you strong very FAST. Stronglifts is a linear model and consequently it will get your lifts up at a faster pace than 5/3/1.

Periodization (I'm probably going to butcher this definition-- if someone would like to correct this please do) involves using cyclical methods of training where within one cycle or macrocycle, you will have multiple meso/microcycles of training with varying intensities.

So for example: In 5/3/1, within 1 month you will have the following weeks:

Week 1 5/5/5 (<--- 3 sets of 5 reps) at 65%, 75%, 85% of your 1RM
Week 2 3/3/3 (<----3 sets of 3 reps) at 80%, 85%, 90% or your 1RM
Week 3 5/3/1 75%, 85%, 95% 1RM
Week 4 deload

Month 2: Increase weight, recalculate, repeat.

This is an example.


Regarding your specific situation:

I would look at your progress on that particular program before deciding to switch. I would look at your rate of weight loss (intake levels) your rest times, and other factors if you are stalling out repeatedly, before I would program switch.

Then, at some point, when you're clearly no longer making progress on Stronglifts I'd consider a different program.

But I do think you should first make sure that the lack of progress has to do with exhausting the linear method, vs other factors that I mentioned above.

taunto

A linear model is one that has you adding weight to the bar either weekly or per-workout. These models tend to make you strong very FAST. Stronglifts is a linear model and consequently it will get your lifts up at a faster pace than 5/3/1.

Periodization (I'm probably going to butcher this definition-- if someone would like to correct this please do) involves using cyclical methods of training where within one cycle or macrocycle, you will have multiple meso/microcycles of training with varying intensities.

So for example: In 5/3/1, within 1 month you will have the following weeks:

Week 1 5/5/5 (<--- 3 sets of 5 reps) at 65%, 75%, 85% of your 1RM
Week 2 3/3/3 (<----3 sets of 3 reps) at 80%, 85%, 90% or your 1RM
Week 3 5/3/1 75%, 85%, 95% 1RM
Week 4 deload

Month 2: Increase weight, recalculate, repeat.

This is an example.

Awesome. That was perfect.

Just to recap what you said though (in case I missed something), stick with SL till I stop seeing steady increments then move on to 5/3/1 to see periodic increases?

If that sounds about right, then I think i'll give SL about a month to see my progress better (Those 2 weeks breadk really threw me off) and if I don't i'll move to 5/3/1 and see how I like it.

Thanks ETP.

SideSteel

Just to recap what you said though (in case I missed something), stick with SL till I stop seeing steady increments then move on to 5/3/1 to see periodic increases?

If that sounds about right, then I think i'll give SL about a month to see my progress better (Those 2 weeks breadk really threw me off) and if I don't i'll move to 5/3/1 and see how I like it.

Thanks ETP.

Almost.

Stick with SL until you start stalling out. When you start stalling out, look at factors that contribute to stalling out and see which of those factors can be corrected to minimize your chances of stalling out.

When you've examined these factors and made corrections and given it some time, you may reach a point where changing programs is the right solution. But stalling out for a couple of weeks without looking at these factors, and changing program, may not be the best solution especially IF you can still get stronger using a linear model. (What I'm trying to say but being very wordy: Don't immediately think that stalling out = I'm done with a linear program).

I will give you one example with a friend who I am consulting right now on his training/diet/etc.

He is doing Starting Strength, which is a 3 set version of SL essentially. He is in a caloric deficit. He is stalling on OHP and his progression on squats is slow but still exists (example: He moves up in weight, he gets 5/4/4 on squats, following week he gets 5/5/5, weight goes up). He has another 4 to 6 weeks of cutting before bringing calories up into a bulk.

For his situation, I wouldn't move him to 5/3/1 even if he hits a wall. I would leave him on his current program (grind it out) to ride out the cut because he's going to move into a caloric surplus soon, and my expectation is that in a calorie surplus he's going to able to make gains while continuing to use a linear progression model.

Now, whether or not that's the right move is up for debate but I'm comfortable with him spending a couple of weeks not getting stronger because I know that as calories come up, this linear model is likely to get him more results.

EDIT: For a 5x5 type of program, one change you can make when you do hit a wall with your progress, is to move to a 3x5 on whatever lift you are stalling out. You can also increase rest times between sets if you are cutting it short at all. You can also use fractionals to increase loading by a lower amount than is suggested. Just some ideas....

craigmandu

Just to recap what you said though (in case I missed something), stick with SL till I stop seeing steady increments then move on to 5/3/1 to see periodic increases?

If that sounds about right, then I think i'll give SL about a month to see my progress better (Those 2 weeks breadk really threw me off) and if I don't i'll move to 5/3/1 and see how I like it.

Thanks ETP.

Almost.

Stick with SL until you start stalling out. When you start stalling out, look at factors that contribute to stalling out and see which of those factors can be corrected to minimize your chances of stalling out.

When you've examined these factors and made corrections and given it some time, you may reach a point where changing programs is the right solution. But stalling out for a couple of weeks without looking at these factors, and changing program, may not be the best solution especially IF you can still get stronger using a linear model. (What I'm trying to say but being very wordy: Don't immediately think that stalling out = I'm done with a linear program).

I will give you one example with a friend who I am consulting right now on his training/diet/etc.

He is doing Starting Strength, which is a 3 set version of SL essentially. He is in a caloric deficit. He is stalling on OHP and his progression on squats is slow but still exists (example: He moves up in weight, he gets 5/4/4 on squats, following week he gets 5/5/5, weight goes up). He has another 4 to 6 weeks of cutting before bringing calories up into a bulk.

For his situation, I wouldn't move him to 5/3/1 even if he hits a wall. I would leave him on his current program (grind it out) to ride out the cut because he's going to move into a caloric surplus soon, and my expectation is that in a calorie surplus he's going to able to make gains while continuing to use a linear progression model.

Now, whether or not that's the right move is up for debate but I'm comfortable with him spending a couple of weeks not getting stronger because I know that as calories come up, this linear model is likely to get him more results.

EDIT: For a 5x5 type of program, one change you can make when you do hit a wall with your progress, is to move to a 3x5 on whatever lift you are stalling out. You can also increase rest times between sets if you are cutting it short at all. You can also use fractionals to increase loading by a lower amount than is suggested. Just some ideas....

This is an awesome reply.

Also, how much of a calorie deficit are you in? Energy matters so much when we lift...if you have stalled, or think you are can you drop your deficit a little to see if you simply aren't getting enough energy to sustain your progress? For instance if I was a stall on my lifts, I would first probably modify to a 3x5 for those exercises, then if I still wasn't making progress change my deficit from 1lb/wk to 0.5lb/wk for a month to see if those extra cals would allow me to continue to progress....just a suggestion.

taunto

Just to recap what you said though (in case I missed something), stick with SL till I stop seeing steady increments then move on to 5/3/1 to see periodic increases?

If that sounds about right, then I think i'll give SL about a month to see my progress better (Those 2 weeks breadk really threw me off) and if I don't i'll move to 5/3/1 and see how I like it.

Thanks ETP.

Almost.

Stick with SL until you start stalling out. When you start stalling out, look at factors that contribute to stalling out and see which of those factors can be corrected to minimize your chances of stalling out.

When you've examined these factors and made corrections and given it some time, you may reach a point where changing programs is the right solution. But stalling out for a couple of weeks without looking at these factors, and changing program, may not be the best solution especially IF you can still get stronger using a linear model. (What I'm trying to say but being very wordy: Don't immediately think that stalling out = I'm done with a linear program).

I will give you one example with a friend who I am consulting right now on his training/diet/etc.

He is doing Starting Strength, which is a 3 set version of SL essentially. He is in a caloric deficit. He is stalling on OHP and his progression on squats is slow but still exists (example: He moves up in weight, he gets 5/4/4 on squats, following week he gets 5/5/5, weight goes up). He has another 4 to 6 weeks of cutting before bringing calories up into a bulk.

For his situation, I wouldn't move him to 5/3/1 even if he hits a wall. I would leave him on his current program (grind it out) to ride out the cut because he's going to move into a caloric surplus soon, and my expectation is that in a calorie surplus he's going to able to make gains while continuing to use a linear progression model.

Now, whether or not that's the right move is up for debate but I'm comfortable with him spending a couple of weeks not getting stronger because I know that as calories come up, this linear model is likely to get him more results.

EDIT: For a 5x5 type of program, one change you can make when you do hit a wall with your progress, is to move to a 3x5 on whatever lift you are stalling out. You can also increase rest times between sets if you are cutting it short at all. You can also use fractionals to increase loading by a lower amount than is suggested. Just some ideas....

Those are all awesome ideas and I think I will stick to SL in that case. I do believe I can go much higher with 5x5 specially if I take better care of my diet. Thanks again man

SideSteel

Just to recap what you said though (in case I missed something), stick with SL till I stop seeing steady increments then move on to 5/3/1 to see periodic increases?

If that sounds about right, then I think i'll give SL about a month to see my progress better (Those 2 weeks breadk really threw me off) and if I don't i'll move to 5/3/1 and see how I like it.

Thanks ETP.

Almost.

Stick with SL until you start stalling out. When you start stalling out, look at factors that contribute to stalling out and see which of those factors can be corrected to minimize your chances of stalling out.

When you've examined these factors and made corrections and given it some time, you may reach a point where changing programs is the right solution. But stalling out for a couple of weeks without looking at these factors, and changing program, may not be the best solution especially IF you can still get stronger using a linear model. (What I'm trying to say but being very wordy: Don't immediately think that stalling out = I'm done with a linear program).

I will give you one example with a friend who I am consulting right now on his training/diet/etc.

He is doing Starting Strength, which is a 3 set version of SL essentially. He is in a caloric deficit. He is stalling on OHP and his progression on squats is slow but still exists (example: He moves up in weight, he gets 5/4/4 on squats, following week he gets 5/5/5, weight goes up). He has another 4 to 6 weeks of cutting before bringing calories up into a bulk.

For his situation, I wouldn't move him to 5/3/1 even if he hits a wall. I would leave him on his current program (grind it out) to ride out the cut because he's going to move into a caloric surplus soon, and my expectation is that in a calorie surplus he's going to able to make gains while continuing to use a linear progression model.

Now, whether or not that's the right move is up for debate but I'm comfortable with him spending a couple of weeks not getting stronger because I know that as calories come up, this linear model is likely to get him more results.

EDIT: For a 5x5 type of program, one change you can make when you do hit a wall with your progress, is to move to a 3x5 on whatever lift you are stalling out. You can also increase rest times between sets if you are cutting it short at all. You can also use fractionals to increase loading by a lower amount than is suggested. Just some ideas....

Those are all awesome ideas and I think I will stick to SL in that case. I do believe I can go much higher with 5x5 specially if I take better care of my diet. Thanks again man

Anytime. If you want to go over specifics over the next few weeks as things progress (or if they don't progress) let me know.

TravisBikes

Tagging, Good info for when I'm ready to consider moving on!

jackpotclown

Excellent read because I'm currently in week 9 and was starting to think the same thing \m/

Chief_Rocka

I think most people can get some what you might call "semi-linear" progression out of a program like SL before you need to move to a true periodization routine like 5/3/1. I think you still have some faster gains left in the tank then what 5/3/1 allows for.

So, when you can't add weight to the bar every week and complete all the reps, then stick at that weight until you get all 3 sets of 5 reps.

After gains slow to a crawl on that, I would move to something like an upper lower split with Reverse Pyramid Training (http://rippedbody.jp/reverse-pyramid-training/).

Only after your gains stalled with that method would I recommend going to 5/3/1.

auddii

EDIT: For a 5x5 type of program, one change you can make when you do hit a wall with your progress, is to move to a 3x5 on whatever lift you are stalling out. You can also increase rest times between sets if you are cutting it short at all. You can also use fractionals to increase loading by a lower amount than is suggested. Just some ideas....

SL is designed so that if you fail 3 times, you deload. After three cycles of deloading, then you switch to 3x5 for that particular exercise. It obviously can be tweaked by preference, but the basic program basically follows what you're suggesting. And fractionals have been the savior of most of the women doing SL, and when the weight is getting really heavy, I see them helping the guys too.

DopeItUp

EDIT: For a 5x5 type of program, one change you can make when you do hit a wall with your progress, is to move to a 3x5 on whatever lift you are stalling out. You can also increase rest times between sets if you are cutting it short at all. You can also use fractionals to increase loading by a lower amount than is suggested. Just some ideas....

Yes. I recommend 3x5 vehemently. Especially while in a deficit. Squatting heavy 3x a week, adding 5lbs every workout, and doing 5x5 while in a deficit is just craziness. I progressed for a while but I stalled out fast and started failing. 3x5 got me a lot further. I recently switched to Madcow 5x5 which is what Mehdi recommends after doing SL. I like it a lot better. It's still squatting 3x a week but it has a heavy 5s day, then a light squat day in the middle, then a heavy 3s day. And only 5lbs a week, not 5lbs a workout. And you work your way up in weight through sets, you only do 1x5 at maximal weight. It has been a saviour to me, I thought my legs were going to fall off doing SL. SL is definitely for the beginner and will last longer for someone in maintenance or a surplus.

Just IMO of course. Once I get tired of Madcow I will be going to 5/3/1. I've been in a deficit for over 2 years though so my progress is pretty slow at this point. A slower program works better for me, I might go back to more linear (at least for a bit) once I start my bulk.

tross0924

SL is designed so that if you fail 3 times, you deload. After three cycles of deloading, then you switch to 3x5 for that particular exercise. It obviously can be tweaked by preference, but the basic program basically follows what you're suggesting. And fractionals have been the savior of most of the women doing SL, and when the weight is getting really heavy, I see them helping the guys too.

Ironically I've found that as the weight gets heavier it's easier to increase by 5 lbs rather than harder. My theory is that it's a matter of percentages. Going from 100 to 105 lbs is a 5% increase. Going from 500 to 505 lbs is a 1% and much easier.

On my squats and deadlifts I've jumped 10 lbs before and not had much of an issue. But on OHP 5 lbs is still a *itch!

auddii

SL is designed so that if you fail 3 times, you deload. After three cycles of deloading, then you switch to 3x5 for that particular exercise. It obviously can be tweaked by preference, but the basic program basically follows what you're suggesting. And fractionals have been the savior of most of the women doing SL, and when the weight is getting really heavy, I see them helping the guys too.

Ironically I've found that as the weight gets heavier it's easier to increase by 5 lbs rather than harder. My theory is that it's a matter of percentages. Going from 100 to 105 lbs is a 5% increase. Going from 500 to 505 lbs is a 1% and much easier.

On my squats and deadlifts I've jumped 10 lbs before and not had much of an issue. But on OHP 5 lbs is still a *itch!

Although, if you're squatting 500lbs and do throw some fractionals on, I'd like a picture of that because it'd look hilarious!

craigmandu

SL is designed so that if you fail 3 times, you deload. After three cycles of deloading, then you switch to 3x5 for that particular exercise. It obviously can be tweaked by preference, but the basic program basically follows what you're suggesting. And fractionals have been the savior of most of the women doing SL, and when the weight is getting really heavy, I see them helping the guys too.

Ironically I've found that as the weight gets heavier it's easier to increase by 5 lbs rather than harder. My theory is that it's a matter of percentages. Going from 100 to 105 lbs is a 5% increase. Going from 500 to 505 lbs is a 1% and much easier.

On my squats and deadlifts I've jumped 10 lbs before and not had much of an issue. But on OHP 5 lbs is still a *itch!

Although, if you're squatting 500lbs and do throw some fractionals on, I'd like a picture of that because it'd look hilarious!

Would probably just look like thick clips on the bar.

And yea...OHP is just retarded, all the way around...I absolutely hate it, I struggle sometimes with warmup sets...

The_Enginerd

Tagging to follow.

Sarauk2sf

Tagging

jaxxie

Tagging! Thanks Taunto, I've had the same issues/questions.