Strength and endurance but not bulk

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Some back ground first. This is a bit of a brain dump so apologies, I'm just trying to include as much info as possible.

I'm into mountain biking. I'm hoping to get into ultra endurance racing; 12/24 hour and multi day unsupported racing.

Mountain biking is all about the power to weight ratios. I have been cutting and I'm down to 160lbs (I'm 5' 9") I have been for one body composition assessment at the high performance sports centre in Birmingham University, which was extremely helpful.

It turns out I carry a disproportionate amount of body fat on my abdomen compared to my limbs which are pretty lean. In terms of the SUM of 7 method (they don't use body fat % there as they feel that there are too many different ways to calculate it) I'm at 63mm which puts me at the very top end of the normal range for ultra endurance athletes, so I have some work to do. I was told that if my abdomen measurements were at an equivalent to my limbs then I would be around mid 40's which they say is spot on for my goals. I was given the goal of losing 2lbs weight but to maintain my muscle measurements. I had 4 weeks to do this before my next assessment, I'm 2 weeks in.

To protect the muscle I was advised to eat high protein; at least 150g a day and to keep working out my upper body and legs doing weight sessions in between my bike sessions.

To give you an idea of my current training.

Monday - 30min light warmup on the bike then sets of tabata intervals. These are super high intensity cardio intervals for VO2 max training and neuromuscular training for fast leg speed. In the afternoon I do a "push" session for upper body and leg weights as well as a bunch of plank sets. Then 30mins light bike work.

Tuesday - 2 x 30min sessions light bike work.

Wednesday - 1 x 30 min session light bike work + 2-4 hour mild intensity bike session with the odd bit of high thrown in.

Thursday - 30min light warmup on the bike then sets of threshold intervals. In the afternoon I do a "pull" session for upper body + plank sets. Then 30mins light bike work again.

Friday - 2x30min light bike sessions + 1-2 hour highish/thresholdish bike session.

Saturday - Anywhere from 6-8 hour endurance sessions depending upon how much life gets in the way. My base level endurance is pretty good these days so I don't worry so much about getting the long ride in every weekend.

Sunday - rest.

I normally take a rest week every 4-6 weeks. The 30mins light bike session are just me getting backwards and forwards to work but they are great for active recovery to relax the legs a bit after the other training sessions.

So I'm looking for advice on the reps and weights in 2 different scenarios.ie the point of the thread.

1. I realise that at a calorie deficit at best I'm just going to be maintaining muscle mass/strength etc. That's fine for now until I'm down to my target. What is the best way to maintain in this situation, Should I be lifting high reps low weight or the reverse?

2. Once I'm down to target I will go to maintenance cals. Mountain biking is extremely physical and requires quite a lot of upper body strength. I would like to build strength and endurance in my upper body, but as already mentioned it's all about power to weight ratios so the last thing I want to do is bulk up much. Again what sort of rep to weight ratios should I be lifting with these goals?

Thanks in advance for any help.

SideSteel

Tagging

BusyRaeNOTBusty

My husband is also an endurance mountain bike racer (100ks, and 100miles instead of timed races though). Interestingly enough he is also 5'9" and 160lbs. He doesn't lift during racing season but I think he should.

Anyway. I'll let Sara or SideSteel answer the lifting question. Just making conversation.

composite

100miles would tick my boxes as well, it just seems the majority of the stuff I have seen in the UK seems to be as timed rather than distance. I would actually rather do point to point, distance type racing rather than laps.

I'm not really "in season" yet as I'm aiming to get into racing properly next season. I was planning it for this season but broke my arm and a rib in 2 different bike crashes late last year so winter training was a non starter.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

Yikes! Yeah that could but a damper on your racing season for sure.

Sarauk2sf

Tagging

Sarauk2sf

Hi! So SideSteel and I chatted, and while we had some ideas, we want to get some input from someone who has more experience with specific functional training. So....off to get him!

Pookylou

100miles would tick my boxes as well, it just seems the majority of the stuff I have seen in the UK seems to be as timed rather than distance. I would actually rather do point to point, distance type racing rather than laps.

I'm not really "in season" yet as I'm aiming to get into racing properly next season. I was planning it for this season but broke my arm and a rib in 2 different bike crashes late last year so winter training was a non starter.

Check out http://www.ukcyclingevents.co.uk/ they have big list of Sportive Events (all sponsored by Wiggle) which have various distances. Merida used to sponsor a load of distance events around the UK too (can't seem to find them though.....) Was also going to suggest the Kielder 100 but that has been cancelled this year too! Mountain Mayhem is always fun :laugh:

EvgeniZyntx

Hi! So SideSteel and I chatted, and while we had some ideas, we want to get some input from someone who has more experience with specific functional training. So....off to get him!

Hi, I'm guessing that's me.

Ok - I'm a reacreational mountain biker now but road raced in the late 80's so know a little about endurance and weight training specifc to the sport.

First off, on the advice you were given:

To protect the muscle I was advised to eat high protein; at least 150g a day and to keep working out my upper body and legs doing weight sessions in between my bike sessions

Yes, absolutely - but you will see an initial impact on endurance and strength that is negative! Soreness, muscle repair, swelling (water uptake=weight gain=slow as molasses). Don't give in to the mental issues that this will generate.

Training program wise - we used to train at both relative low rep (3-8) for strength and "speedplay" - fast high rep or plyometrics for endurance. I would focus on strength.

However, it seems that you stated question - reps vs intensity is missing some of the other elements you might want to focus on.

1) body recomp. - if you are "holding belly fat" (like me, but I'm quite sure you are more in shape - I'm an old fart) consider reducing the total volume of bike riding for a little while (and this will drive you crazy, if you are like me) - the endurance needs tend to program the body to use fat as a ready storage system. Cardio training does not seems to help much in body recomp. If you do reduce the riding - do it slowly and adjust your eating down accordingly or boom - it's counter productive.

2) balanced training - A major issue with bike riding is that it creates a muscle inbalance that weight training and yoga can help with. Look at Ken Doyle's book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Weight-Training-Cyclists-Program-Endurance/dp/1934030295/ref=pd_cp_b_0/278-2064926-1114403

and also see the Cycling Anatomy book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cycling-Anatomy-Sports-Shannon-Sovndal/dp/0736075879/ref=pd_sim_b_3

This second one is more like an exercise list - they might be available from your coach or local library.

I would also suggest that you think about summer vs winter/spring training - winter is for strength/endurance and not getting fat. Spring to dial it in amd Summer is the peak/race/do not burn out or injure yourself period.

So ... look into the Morris Plan for training.

See the Team MWC blog - it had a great write up on it, in 2005:

Here is the index, see each part.
http://ashwinearl.blogspot.de/2005/11/off-season-training-index-and.html

As to specific reps, Sara and SS are best at giving that advice but my question: what is your current weight training regimen? What do you do specifically, at what freq and weight/rep range.

Oh, and before I forget -I imagine you know mtbr.com ? - the forums have lots of racers too (if you can get past the newbie noise)

Rubber side down!

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Check out http://www.ukcyclingevents.co.uk/ they have big list of Sportive Events (all sponsored by Wiggle) which have various distances. Merida used to sponsor a load of distance events around the UK too (can't seem to find them though.....) Was also going to suggest the Kielder 100 but that has been cancelled this year too! Mountain Mayhem is always fun :laugh:

Kielder 100 is one of the few that is a set distance that I have seen and I thought it looked good. Need to keep hunting though.

Off road Sportives are not really where I'm at. I'm into the endurance challenge and with most being 100km longest that wouldn't be the challenge I'm after, I did longer than that last Sunday on a 140mm full sus trail bike haha. The biggest problem I have with them though is I don't really get what I'm paying for. Mostly the routes are all on publicly accessible bridle way and a couple of flapjacks and a water bottle fill doesn't ever seem like value for money to me. Thanks for the suggestion though.

@EvgeniZyntx Thanks for that response I will digest it properly later on. Just about to go out for a ride.

composite

Yes, absolutely - but you will see an initial impact on endurance and strength that is negative! Soreness, muscle repair, swelling (water uptake=weight gain=slow as molasses). Don't give in to the mental issues that this will generate.

This has actually not been too bad. Recovery has been slightly longer but the rides I have been doing have been getting longer with more climbing so I think that's expected anyway. Ultimately it's nothing I can't get through in my head. The endurance aspect has not be an issue at all really, I feel that has just been steadily improving. In terms of strength though I have definitely noticed that in the gym. The weight has decreased a fair amount compared to when I was eating at maintenance or probably slightly over cals. However as a beach body or power lifting is not my goals I have just been accepting it so I'm not having any mental issues.

Training program wise - we used to train at both relative low rep (3-8) for strength and "speedplay" - fast high rep or plyometrics for endurance. I would focus on strength.

Upper and lower body in terms of strength yeah?

1) body recomp. - if you are "holding belly fat" (like me, but I'm quite sure you are more in shape - I'm an old fart) consider reducing the total volume of bike riding for a little while (and this will drive you crazy, if you are like me) - the endurance needs tend to program the body to use fat as a ready storage system. Cardio training does not seems to help much in body recomp. If you do reduce the riding - do it slowly and adjust your eating down accordingly or boom - it's counter productive.

This is an interesting point and certainly tallies with my experience. I found that even though most of my training has always been in the supposed "fat burning zone" it was actually diet change and real careful calorie counting that got my results in terms of dropping body fat.

My dilemma is that as I'm not racing at the moment, I see this period as "winter" training. As it is actually the summer here (UK - no really it is.....) it's actually pretty easy to get out doing the volume required to get me to where I need to be for 12hour+ racing. In all fairness I'm not really that far off target body composition (I guess the last bit is the hardest though) and so I'm wondering if I'm worrying about that aspect of it a bit early. That right now and possibly up until December/Jan time I should be more concerned about just getting the endurance and strength done (while just maintaining my current body comp) and spend the spring reducing volume like you say, towards the start of the season and trying to drop that last bit of body fat. I have another body comp assessment in exactly 2 weeks time so I think it's probably worth waiting until then at least before making any changes so I have some data to make a decision with.

2) balanced training - A major issue with bike riding is that it creates a muscle inbalance that weight training and yoga can help with. Look at Ken Doyle's book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Weight-Training-Cyclists-Program-Endurance/dp/1934030295/ref=pd_cp_b_0/278-2064926-1114403

and also see the Cycling Anatomy book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cycling-Anatomy-Sports-Shannon-Sovndal/dp/0736075879/ref=pd_sim_b_3

This second one is more like an exercise list - they might be available from your coach or local library.

This is why I have always worked out my upper body in the gym. I tend to do mostly compounds chest press, push ups, shoulder press, lat pull down, rows and a few isolations like dips and hammers/curls and shrugs. I also do a lot planks/side planks each week. I do like to mix it up a bit though but generally what I have mentioned is the core of what I do. There is only one compound I don't do but would like to (kinda) and that's dead lift. I have had several different coaches show me form but I've never been happy with how my back feels during the periods when I have been doing dead lifts. Aching/stiffness going on well after when the recovering period should have been. I have had problems in the past with my back and although I haven't suffered with it for 10 years or so I still have flash backs of the pain I was in. I tend to use the back extension machine now (don't really like machines but...) to do lower back strength training. This hasn't given me problems yet so I have just continued with that.

I would also suggest that you think about summer vs winter/spring training - winter is for strength/endurance and not getting fat. Spring to dial it in amd Summer is the peak/race/do not burn out or injure yourself period.

So ... look into the Morris Plan for training.


See the Team MWC blog - it had a great write up on it, in 2005:

Here is the index, see each part.
http://ashwinearl.blogspot.de/2005/11/off-season-training-index-and.html


Oh, and before I forget -I imagine you know mtbr.com ? - the forums have lots of racers too (if you can get past the newbie noise)

I have done a lot of research already into the cycle specific training, books forums etc. Also I work at a university so I get free access to a lot of databases of papers and journals which has been handy.

You can't read to much stuff though IMO so I will I will take a look at that blog and the Morris plan.

As to specific reps, Sara and SS are best at giving that advice but my question: what is your current weight training regimen? What do you do specifically, at what freq and weight/rep range.

So this is my last 2 sessions with reps and sets:

Push day:

Plank 120s, 90s, 105s (30s between)
Push ups 10, 10, 10, 8
Dumbbell Flyes 12, 8, 8
Dips 20, 15, 15
Dumbbell Shoulder Press 12, 10, 8

Pull day:

Side plank 60s, 60s (30s between)
Lat pull down 15, 10, 10
seated row 16, 10, 8
dumbbell curl 10, 10, 10
Machine Back Extension 15, 15, 15
Dumbbell Shrug 20, 15, 15

Legs: (I fit legs in when I think its sensible based on when I'm riding the bike)

leg press 10,10,10
seated curl 8, 8, 8
calf raise 10,10,10

I don't do extensions as I don't like how it makes my knees feel and my knees take enough of a battering as it is. :ohwell:

It seems that I should maybe be going lower reps but heavier?

Thanks EvgeniZyntx for all the input.

EvgeniZyntx

Yes, it was upper and lower in terms of strength and a lot of flexibility work because roadies just dont get the off the seat work out we get on mountain bikes.

Ok, the aching & stiffness in the back might point to a cycling imbalance (impossible to tell over the internet) - how flexible do you feel you are? In any case it is good to know. A general thought - we tend to protect the areas we think are prone to injury which then results in that these areas are weaker and this becomes a self-fullfilling story:

injury ---> protected area ---> weakness ---> more injury

For deadlifts in general one needs to build up volume and weight slloowwlly to avoid injury (at least that is what I keep hearing and reading).

Anyway - let me consult with Sara and SS and one of us will post back.

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The issue with dead lifts were pre when cycling would have given me any sort of imbalance. I was working out in the gym before I got into any sort of volume on the bike. I don't really protect the lower back in that sense as I do other exercises for it I just don't do dead lifts. I feel like there is something specific about that movement that my body doesn't like.

I hear what you are saying though and I'm not against giving it another go. I'll try in my pull sessions from next week with low weight and see how it goes.

EDIT: another thing I have just thought of is that when I do a lot of hard climbing in a single ride I can start to feel tired in my lower back sometimes. I would guess that my lower back has been used a lot more now and is stronger than it used to be. Could be worth just giving it a go again as it has been so long since I tired it last.

composite

OK so I think what I'm going to do for now is follow something resembling the Morris plan. Take those lifts but do them somewhere between the light and heavy days 2-3 sessions a week. That way I can continue with the bike training while the weather is good and I can enjoy the outside. I want to enjoy riding not just see it as training.

Once the winter really comes I think I'm going to then follow it more closely and do a strength portion of training with the heavy/light days 4 sessions a week and considerably less bike volume.

Sarauk2sf

Sorry - just realized that this was not completely resolved.