Types of Keto
Options
mongoosealamode
Posts: 112 Member
So I am a part of FB groups, MFP groups, and read random forums sometimes.
I keep seeing people argue about 'different types of keto'
I know one is just wrong in that they say high protein, mod fat, low carb. That's just not keto.
But there seems to be an argument over nutritional(medical) ketosis vs. weight loss ketosis.
Is there really a difference?
My macros are set to 75%, 20%, 5% which is what people are saying is nutritional. I have lost about 20 lbs since mid March which isn't as fast as some but I'm mostly ok with it.
I keep seeing people argue about 'different types of keto'
I know one is just wrong in that they say high protein, mod fat, low carb. That's just not keto.
But there seems to be an argument over nutritional(medical) ketosis vs. weight loss ketosis.
Is there really a difference?
My macros are set to 75%, 20%, 5% which is what people are saying is nutritional. I have lost about 20 lbs since mid March which isn't as fast as some but I'm mostly ok with it.
0
Replies
-
There is no official definition, so everyone is free to make up their own. They're ALL right!
The original keto is fasting. Bad keto is the ketoacidosis that results from T1D.
The term "nutritional ketosis" was coined to differentiate it from fasting and ketoacidosis. It basically means "simulated fasting with exogenous nutrients."
Medically, it's used to treat epilepsy. They use at least four different types in medical settings, with the newest types being "modifed Atkins" and "low glycemic."
They used to talk about a "ketogenic ratio," which basically reflects the amount of fat in the diet, but it's not used as much as it once was, and it's even fallen out of favor with biohackers:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/ketosis-and-the-ketogenic-ratio-qa.html/
If you want to lose weight, eat less. Ketosis makes that easier by dampening hunger. Almost everybody on a low-carb diet will get that benefit.
The "fat burning" aspect is sort of true, but what else are you going to burn if you don't eat carbs? In athletes, ketosis can raise the peak fat oxidation rate, but most of us don't care about that, and even most athletes don't care.
0 -
You're in luck. We had this discussion in late February. I was trying to identify the variations. So I started the discussion and we came up with many definitions/labels and terms. I was supposed to make a blog, but never did, partly because MFP had severe problems with their blog editor and I get distracted easily
. Subsequently the blog editor has been repaired. So I'm blogging again... 
So tonight, after seeing your question, I decided to finish the work, it may be found here:
DittoDan's Keto Sub Groups Blog
I hope this helps answer your question,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary
Acetone Smell in Your Breath?
Should You Use a Kitchen Scale to Weigh Your Food?
Should a Person Have a Food Diary for the Keto Diet?0 -
Exactly.There is no official definition, so everyone is free to make up their own. They're ALL right!
I would like to elaborate on this whole discussion. Read or don't as you like.
Dan mentioned the numbers 75%/20%/5% in his blog as the standard for keto. There really is no standard. Some ketogenic macro percentages are 65% fat/30% protein. Those were the parameters I followed from r/keto from the beginning last year. I aim for that myself. Or 60/30/10 sometimes. I need a bit more protein to run my machinery than some people. Actually, keto is a range, and has been transitioning, at least in the r/keto subset, to focus on ketosis plus "adequate" protein for the individual a bit more. Making sure you get enough protein to keep it muscle-sparing. That isn't "high protein." And it isn't "wrong." There are some people that actually eat 80/15 regularly. I could do that, but it's not optimal functioning for me. Not something I could personally thrive under nor sustain. If keto is under 50g carbs then the percentages will vary dependent upon where they are in that carb range. (Mine is between 5-10% where I am now. Which is anywhere between 20g net to 40g net. If I were heavier and consuming more calories, then that percentage would be different.)
I think that ketogenic diets could possibly be further subdivided. There is VLC and keto but what about the other people also in nutritional ketosis? The people who are often 55/30 (protein grams are higher than fat, but fat is still more than 50% of intake)? The AHA says over 35% protein is high. People who do "higher" protein than keto but lower fat (while still over 50% fat), are still not "high protein" then are they? That's level is insufficient to trigger gluconeogenesis. How do we define protein as "too high"? And then there are within keto those who do 20g total, 20g net, and many striations between 20g and 50g. Yet other subdivisions.
And there is the problem with macro percentages as well. We have to futz with them if we are using MFP because that's the nature of the game. And they aren't bad as a general guide for beginners. Grams are really a better determiner though. Ketosis is under 50g for most but then some can stay ketotic higher than that. (I'm good to 70g I think.) Protein should be dependent on your lean body mass, IMO to spare muscle, which is a gram metric. But what is the minimum? .8 to 1.2g per kg of lean body mass? 1g per kg of bodyweight? Phinney and Volek have a chart with ranges based upon height. Proper protein levels are going to depend on the individual and their own personal bio-machinery.
Keto calcs say that I should eat between 73g and 120g of protein. Big range. Which would make my macros end up between 64-76% fat and 19-31% protein. I tend to try to keep it on the upper end of protein, because that's where I feel best and perform best. This is keeping carbs constant at 5%. Which I don't always do. And I don't always hit my other chosen targets even though I try. Life is too big and too messy to keep rigid. It doesn't cooperate with my ideal conditions.
Low-carb, regardless of which label you fall under, becomes a giant personal experiment, doesn't it?
Just some things to consider.
0 -
Interesting. I think the discussion is really about different "eating plans" that can get you into a state of ketosis.
There aren't different "types of ketosis". Ketosis is when your blood level of ketones is anywhere above 0.5mmol. There are many ways of getting there. When I was doing 150 grams of carb a day in an 8 hr eating window, I was still ketotic for part of each day.
I love that there are so many options to try. I actually just met a lady who successfully does high protein, moderate fat, low carb And maintains low level ketosis.0 -
baconslave wrote: »
Exactly.There is no official definition, so everyone is free to make up their own. They're ALL right!
I would like to elaborate on this whole discussion. Read or don't as you like.
Dan mentioned the numbers 75%/20%/5% in his blog as the standard for keto. There really is no standard. Some ketogenic macro percentages are 65% fat/30% protein. Those were the parameters I followed from r/keto from the beginning last year. I aim for that myself. Or 60/30/10 sometimes. I need a bit more protein to run my machinery than some people. Actually, keto is a range, and has been transitioning, at least in the r/keto subset, to focus on ketosis plus "adequate" protein for the individual a bit more. Making sure you get enough protein to keep it muscle-sparing. That isn't "high protein." And it isn't "wrong." There are some people that actually eat 80/15 regularly. I could do that, but it's not optimal functioning for me. Not something I could personally thrive under nor sustain. If keto is under 50g carbs then the percentages will vary dependent upon where they are in that carb range. (Mine is between 5-10% where I am now. Which is anywhere between 20g net to 40g net. If I were heavier and consuming more calories, then that percentage would be different.)
I think that ketogenic diets could possibly be further subdivided. There is VLC and keto but what about the other people also in nutritional ketosis? The people who are often 55/30 (protein grams are higher than fat, but fat is still more than 50% of intake)? The AHA says over 35% protein is high. People who do "higher" protein than keto but lower fat (while still over 50% fat), are still not "high protein" then are they? That's level is insufficient to trigger gluconeogenesis. How do we define protein as "too high"? And then there are within keto those who do 20g total, 20g net, and many striations between 20g and 50g. Yet other subdivisions.
And there is the problem with macro percentages as well. We have to futz with them if we are using MFP because that's the nature of the game. And they aren't bad as a general guide for beginners. Grams are really a better determiner though. Ketosis is under 50g for most but then some can stay ketotic higher than that. (I'm good to 70g I think.) Protein should be dependent on your lean body mass, IMO to spare muscle, which is a gram metric. But what is the minimum? .8 to 1.2g per kg of lean body mass? 1g per kg of bodyweight? Phinney and Volek have a chart with ranges based upon height. Proper protein levels are going to depend on the individual and their own personal bio-machinery.
Keto calcs say that I should eat between 73g and 120g of protein. Big range. Which would make my macros end up between 64-76% fat and 19-31% protein. I tend to try to keep it on the upper end of protein, because that's where I feel best and perform best. This is keeping carbs constant at 5%. Which I don't always do. And I don't always hit my other chosen targets even though I try. Life is too big and too messy to keep rigid. It doesn't cooperate with my ideal conditions.
Low-carb, regardless of which label you fall under, becomes a giant personal experiment, doesn't it?
Just some things to consider.
Good stuff BaconSlave. Points well taken. One of the reasons I never finished the blog, was that there wasn't total consensus. To put absolute perfected definitions of these things was like herding cats. I could leave it undone or just put it up there and know that there will be those that disagree. This is the same way in engineer and designing things: when you give engineers to design a building or other large project, you literally have to stop them at some point, because they will keep designing it until its perfect. The problem is you only a set amount of time to design, otherwise nothing would get built and your company would go down the tubes. So I'd rather put up a general guideline that is short and sweet and will serve a good purpose for the newbies to see what' what in terms of the different Keto sub groups.
I edited the definition to broaden the percentages. I am not going to consider the "fringe" group ketoers and you mentioned (higher protein) because those groups usually have to be doctor supervised and I am focussing on the fewer bigger keto groups. Not fractionalise them into to splinter groups.
Actually, I just now eliminated the two groups: PSMF & FODMAP, their percentages are terribly low. I wanted a short read for newbies to read and understand the differences between the groups when the elder ketoer's talk on this group. I will move PSMF & FODMAP descriptions to my blog:
Blog #10 Keto: Abbreviations, Acronyms & Terminology Used on the LCD & Keto Discussion Groups
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary
0 -
Great points baconslave! The thing is, with almost anything concerning diet and lifestyle choices, the variables are not constant and can interact. Which makes it almost impossible to make valid generalizations for everyone, since we're individual after all.
The hormonal responses from exercise and IF can impact carb threshold considerably, IME. Also different TYPES of exercise and IF protocols might differ for outcome. I experiment a lot. Yes, less hypos with more carbs!
For me, ketosis is just a tool to get and keep FA. I
FA ! I've tried ca 20 g the past weeks in hopes of healing inflamed arm. It seems like slightly less painful. BUT, I generally feel better at 50-70 g. I give the experiment some more time and assess if the results are worth it. Maybe it was those damn ramen. Everything's cost benefits. 0 -
Foamroller wrote: »Great points baconslave! The thing is, with almost anything concerning diet and lifestyle choices, the variables are not constant and can interact. Which makes it almost impossible to make valid generalizations for everyone, since we're individual after all.
The hormonal responses from exercise and IF can impact carb threshold considerably, IME. Also different TYPES of exercise and IF protocols might differ for outcome. I experiment a lot. Yes, less hypos with more carbs!
For me, ketosis is just a tool to get and keep FA. I FA ! I've tried ca 20 g the past weeks in hopes of healing inflamed arm. It seems like slightly less painful. BUT, I generally feel better at 50-70 g. I give the experiment some more time and assess if the results are worth it. Maybe it was those damn ramen. Everything's cost benefits.
What is "FA" and "IME"? I have been racking my small brain and trying to guess...but I give up...I also read Bacon's post to get a clue, but couldn't figure it out.... I will add it to my terminology stuff if its diet related.... its probably something easy....
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary0 -
FA = fat adapted
IME = in my experience
FA is a very cool benefit for those who exercise a bunch, like @foamroller.0 -
I was wondering about FA...feeling awsome??/ IME is ..in my experience.....and no, lol, I dont get dittodan! Unless you are referring to the film Ghost where the man cant say I love you but just says 'ditto;??!!! LOLOL0
-
I'm guessing...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dittohead0 -
I'm guessing...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dittohead
Yup! (psssssst...hold it down, a lot of women don't like him....)
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary0 -
FA = fat adapted
IME = in my experience
FA is a very cool benefit for those who exercise a bunch, like @foamroller.
Thank you WAB! That makes sense now. I have never see "Fat Adapted" abbreviated. I will ad to my terms...
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary
0
