Insulin Resistant Folks - Postprandial Somnolence (Falling Asleep After Eating) Question
Replies
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »From everything I read, you aren't getting enough sleep. Now the next question would be, have you tried sleeping 7-8 hours @ day for a solid week? You need to get to bed sooner. Until then, if I were you, I would never expect to solve your dilemma. I think you are overthinking your problem. Try the basics first, get enough sleep and go from there. Until you do that, you're just wasting time.
Along with all of this is "insomnia". Do you have it? There are several types of manifestations of it:
1) Can't fall asleep (sounds like you)
2) Wake up early into the night and can't get back to sleep
3) Wake up near the end of sleep (to use the bathroom) and can't get back to sleep (me)
Reasons a person can't get back to sleep:
1) You are a type A person that has many problems that have to be solve and you think about them ~ which keeps you from sleeping
2) You try to solve other peoples problems (family) and the thinking keeps you awake
3) You try to solve problems from work and the thinking keeps you awake
4) (you fill in the blank) and the thinking keeps you awake
5) pains, uncomfortable beds, too noisy, too quiet, lights, temperature, other external disturbances, etc ad infinitum.
There are many solutions to the above, mostly involving a "distraction" to your mind/thinking. And there are many solutions to help you "unwind" sooner in order to get enough sleep. Every sleep disorder book I read have a plethora of solutions, just read them and follow.
I do have some gut microbe stuff for weight loss/diabetics ~ but none for sleep disorders, like I said, its just a theory of mine...
BTW, I had the after lunch narcolepsy today, I didn't have a nap after lunch...
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary
93 pounds down, 31 to go.
Dan,
I have zero problem actually falling asleep. The majority of the time, I do not wake up, and I rarely have any problems getting back to sleep. I do wake up on occasion to use the bathroom, but I don't generally have any problem falling back asleep. Stress/problem solving does not keep me awake - generally I use meditation music before bed to clear my mind. Once I'm in bed, I'm pretty much asleep like a light (according to my FitBit tracker, I'm asleep deeply in under ten minutes). I do not often wake, except to use the restroom or from extremely loud noises (we have upstairs neighbors that are intermittently very loud from midnight to 6 am, at random). I generally wake and am fully alert within minutes.
While yes, I may need more sleep, I've already improved my sleep by over 50% of previous amounts and 75% or more improved quality. I am progressing as best I can. No, I haven't ever slept 7-8 hours every day for a solid week, even on vacation. My body doesn't generally want that much sleep, and never for more than 2 days in a row. For example, I had a 4 day weekend, slept 8+ hours the first two days, on day three, I woke up at either 5.5 or 6 hours of sleep, and couldn't even nap.
My body is just naturally geared toward nighttime activity. I'm always my most alert in the afternoons and evenings. Mornings were miserable for me before. They are no longer. Keto has definitely made me a functional morning person. I tend to lose track of time in the evenings, because I'm bustling about from one task to another in the "getting *kitten* done" zone. It will be 8 pm, I'll do the dishes and blink, and suddenly it's midnight.
All of that being said, I'm not actually SLEEPING when I "narc" out. It's usually a blip. And it's never proceeded by yawning, feeling tired, needing to get up and move, or any of that. It is more of a "crash" like some people have after their coffee or sugary snack wears off. And it's been nearly solved by my dietary changes in the first 4.5 months I was on this WOE (I think I can literally count on one hand the number of occurrences I had in the first 4 or so months of low-carbing it). The only return or resurgence of this effect has been in the last few weeks.
This weekend, following some suggestions about alternate ways to improve my insulin sensitivity (reducing the insulin resistance reaction), I purchased a supplement to help. In taking this supplement, I literally CRASHED HARD AND FAST after EVERY SINGLE MEAL OR SNACK. All day. Every day.
I really can't see that as progress - or as getting worse before it gets better. I've got Splenda free for several days now, and the non-supplemented times I've done the food-crash thing might have been related to the erythritol.
Also, I know we've discussed taste buds triggering insulin release, which is part of why AS stall some folks, but since a huge part of the taste bud sensation is scent based, do y'all think that the scents of certain foods (like huffing over a donut for example, or the uber-fragrant smell of some of my floral teas) can trigger that response, even if you don't actually eat them? Just wondering...
Carly
I doubt your problem will change until you get more sleep per day. Just the fact that you "sleep in" occasionally, shows you are going into sleep deficits. I too am a night time person. On vacations, I end up staying up til 3:00 am and sleeping to 10 am to noon every day. Currently I stay up until 1:00 am and go to work at 9-10 am. But I always try to sleep 7-8 hours a day. Failure to do so, results in the same symptoms that you describe and especially after lunch.
Don't give up trying things. Keep eliminating things from your diet. Also, when you blip out, did you check your BP? And did you check your blood glucose? (especially if its going low ~ under 70ish). Both are other things to consider when looking for a cause.
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary
93 pounds down, 31 to go.
Previous Discussions on the LCD & Keto Groups
DittoDan's Keto Sub Groups Blog
It's Ketogenic or Bariatric Surgery! How I Found the Ketogenic Diet
Blog #10 Keto: Abbreviations, Acronyms & Terminology Used on the LCD & Keto Discussion Groups Updated
Blog #13 DittoDan's Milestone's, First's And Good Changes Since Starting the Ketogenic Diet Updated
DittoDan's Keto Blogs
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »From everything I read, you aren't getting enough sleep. Now the next question would be, have you tried sleeping 7-8 hours @ day for a solid week? You need to get to bed sooner. Until then, if I were you, I would never expect to solve your dilemma. I think you are overthinking your problem. Try the basics first, get enough sleep and go from there. Until you do that, you're just wasting time.
Along with all of this is "insomnia". Do you have it? There are several types of manifestations of it:
1) Can't fall asleep (sounds like you)
2) Wake up early into the night and can't get back to sleep
3) Wake up near the end of sleep (to use the bathroom) and can't get back to sleep (me)
Reasons a person can't get back to sleep:
1) You are a type A person that has many problems that have to be solve and you think about them ~ which keeps you from sleeping
2) You try to solve other peoples problems (family) and the thinking keeps you awake
3) You try to solve problems from work and the thinking keeps you awake
4) (you fill in the blank) and the thinking keeps you awake
5) pains, uncomfortable beds, too noisy, too quiet, lights, temperature, other external disturbances, etc ad infinitum.
There are many solutions to the above, mostly involving a "distraction" to your mind/thinking. And there are many solutions to help you "unwind" sooner in order to get enough sleep. Every sleep disorder book I read have a plethora of solutions, just read them and follow.
I do have some gut microbe stuff for weight loss/diabetics ~ but none for sleep disorders, like I said, its just a theory of mine...
BTW, I had the after lunch narcolepsy today, I didn't have a nap after lunch...
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary
93 pounds down, 31 to go.
Dan,
I have zero problem actually falling asleep. The majority of the time, I do not wake up, and I rarely have any problems getting back to sleep. I do wake up on occasion to use the bathroom, but I don't generally have any problem falling back asleep. Stress/problem solving does not keep me awake - generally I use meditation music before bed to clear my mind. Once I'm in bed, I'm pretty much asleep like a light (according to my FitBit tracker, I'm asleep deeply in under ten minutes). I do not often wake, except to use the restroom or from extremely loud noises (we have upstairs neighbors that are intermittently very loud from midnight to 6 am, at random). I generally wake and am fully alert within minutes.
While yes, I may need more sleep, I've already improved my sleep by over 50% of previous amounts and 75% or more improved quality. I am progressing as best I can. No, I haven't ever slept 7-8 hours every day for a solid week, even on vacation. My body doesn't generally want that much sleep, and never for more than 2 days in a row. For example, I had a 4 day weekend, slept 8+ hours the first two days, on day three, I woke up at either 5.5 or 6 hours of sleep, and couldn't even nap.
My body is just naturally geared toward nighttime activity. I'm always my most alert in the afternoons and evenings. Mornings were miserable for me before. They are no longer. Keto has definitely made me a functional morning person. I tend to lose track of time in the evenings, because I'm bustling about from one task to another in the "getting *kitten* done" zone. It will be 8 pm, I'll do the dishes and blink, and suddenly it's midnight.
All of that being said, I'm not actually SLEEPING when I "narc" out. It's usually a blip. And it's never proceeded by yawning, feeling tired, needing to get up and move, or any of that. It is more of a "crash" like some people have after their coffee or sugary snack wears off. And it's been nearly solved by my dietary changes in the first 4.5 months I was on this WOE (I think I can literally count on one hand the number of occurrences I had in the first 4 or so months of low-carbing it). The only return or resurgence of this effect has been in the last few weeks.
This weekend, following some suggestions about alternate ways to improve my insulin sensitivity (reducing the insulin resistance reaction), I purchased a supplement to help. In taking this supplement, I literally CRASHED HARD AND FAST after EVERY SINGLE MEAL OR SNACK. All day. Every day.
I really can't see that as progress - or as getting worse before it gets better. I've got Splenda free for several days now, and the non-supplemented times I've done the food-crash thing might have been related to the erythritol.
Also, I know we've discussed taste buds triggering insulin release, which is part of why AS stall some folks, but since a huge part of the taste bud sensation is scent based, do y'all think that the scents of certain foods (like huffing over a donut for example, or the uber-fragrant smell of some of my floral teas) can trigger that response, even if you don't actually eat them? Just wondering...
Carly
I doubt your problem will change until you get more sleep per day. Just the fact that you "sleep in" occasionally, shows you are going into sleep deficits. I too am a night time person. On vacations, I end up staying up til 3:00 am and sleeping to 10 am to noon every day. Currently I stay up until 1:00 am and go to work at 9-10 am. But I always try to sleep 7-8 hours a day. Failure to do so, results in the same symptoms that you describe and especially after lunch.
Don't give up trying things. Keep eliminating things from your diet. Also, when you blip out, did you check your BP? And did you check your blood glucose? (especially if its going low ~ under 70ish). Both are other things to consider when looking for a cause.
I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary
93 pounds down, 31 to go.
Previous Discussions on the LCD & Keto Groups
DittoDan's Keto Sub Groups Blog
It's Ketogenic or Bariatric Surgery! How I Found the Ketogenic Diet
Blog #10 Keto: Abbreviations, Acronyms & Terminology Used on the LCD & Keto Discussion Groups Updated
Blog #13 DittoDan's Milestone's, First's And Good Changes Since Starting the Ketogenic Diet Updated
DittoDan's Keto Blogs
Yes, I've checked both my blood glucose and blood pressure, fasting, pre-meal, immediately following meal, prior to episode, and after episode. All numbers were in line with expected blood glucose and blood pressure numbers expected for a non-diabetic and person with normal blood pressure (medicated, in this case).
As I stated, I am well aware that I am in sleep deficits. Those deficits were far worse when I started this WOE 1/15/15, and yet during those times, for a grand total of 4, nearly 5, months, I had an average of less than one occurrence in any given 4 week or so period. This weekend, on Saturday, I had I think 5 episodes (luckily I was at home, so it wasn't a problem, and I was trying that new supplement). Last week at work, I think there was 1 day where I didn't have any. Two months ago, I was having none or next to none in a 4 week period, much less 4-day period.
The problem is recent. Other than the supposed "body can't do too many things at once" theory, which sounded like hooey to me, and the insulin resistance reaction (whether or not many carbs are present), no one seems to have any idea why this happens.
Like most of the health issues I encounter, it looks like the true issue will not be uncovered without deeper investigation and out of the box thinking...0 -
Just to update, I've been "no splenda" since last week and no "erythritol" since yesterday, and had about 6 carbs in breakfast, 5 in a snack (only option I thought to bring in today), 4-5 carbs with lunch, and I have not has a single dip in my alertness or any episode of narcing out today. I'll keep y'all in the loop as the experiment continues!0
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KnitOrMiss wrote: »Just to update, I've been "no splenda" since last week and no "erythritol" since yesterday, and had about 6 carbs in breakfast, 5 in a snack (only option I thought to bring in today), 4-5 carbs with lunch, and I have not has a single dip in my alertness or any episode of narcing out today. I'll keep y'all in the loop as the experiment continues!
That's what I like about this group, the sharing of info for the benefit of all...Thank you!
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary
92 pounds down, 32 to go.
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No episodes at all yesterday, even after dinner and a small chocolate mousse dessert after dinner.
Will advise today.0 -
http://www.swansonvitamins.com/bio-nutrition-blood-sugar-wellness-60-veg-caps
This is the supplement I purchased based on the recommendation of a friend with personal experiences using these supplements.
However, if you look at the list of ingredients in this similar supplement listing how each ingredient (not this blend, but most of the same supplements individually are listed) works, it seems to work opposite of how keto works. Please let me know if y'all think I'm misinterpreting this...
http://www.luckyvitamin.com/p-686836-neuliven-health-glucocil-total-blood-sugar-optimizer-120-softgels
For example:
Alpha Lipoic Acid - Reduces glucose production in the liver
- Increases glucose uptake in the cells
- Contributes to weight management
Banaba Leaf Extract - Reduces glucose production in the liver
- Increases glucose uptake in the cells
Isn't glucose production in the liver what we want? The conversion from whatever source to the glucose the body needs without it being from carbohydrates themselves? I've just read so much at this point, it's all blurring together and I'm not entirely certain which terms were the ones we want and which don't...
Any clarification anyone has is greatly appreciated.0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »Isn't glucose production in the liver what we want?
This is what I was going to say. But I'm a newbie so I'll wait for someone more knowledgeable to confirm.
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Dr. Michael Eades likes ALA supplements for balancing blood sugars and reducing inflammation, which is all good
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Alpha lipoic acid (ALA)
ALA is, next to magnesium, just about my favorite supplement. It acts as both a fat-soluble and water-soluble anti-oxidant so it can pretty much weasel its way in anywhere in the body and stamp out inflammation. It protects fatty membranes and even acts as a cellular nutrient. It also helps the body deal with blood sugar, which helps the whole low-carb adaptation process along. Many studies have shown an improvement in blood glucose levels and insulin sensitivity with ALA supplementation. ALA can rejuvenate other anti-oxidants, and has so many virtues that entire books have been written about it. My standard dose is 300 mg per day for patients starting low-carb diets. There is a newer, more potent version of ALA available now called r-alpha lipoic acid. The standard stuff is a combination of the r and l varieties, and since the r isomer is the active one, a supplement made entirely of the r variety is going to be more potent. And more expensive. If you use the r-ALA you can take 100 mg a day.
https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2011/06/25/tips-tricks-for-starting-or-restarting-low-carb-pt-ii/
But no detail there on how it actually works, so ymmv.0 -
Hi Knit,
Saw this on another MFP'er's profile:
I thought you might enjoy it.... ; )
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / IF / Sedentary
93 pounds down, 31 to go.0 -
LOL, Dan. That's fabulous.0
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The supplement at Swanson's has very good ingredients. Would need to take 3 per day to get recommended ALA, but chromium possibly is a bit high. There are multiple varieties of chromium and picolinate variety is generally recommended to control glucose levels. All the rest of the ingredients are ones that were in quasi-prescriptions recommended by naturopathic doctors that I've seen. The product seems to be marketed to those with high blood glucose and eat (hopefully) fewer carbs and yet their glucose is still too high continually (=me) because the body is allowing over- production of glucose (as opposed to over-consumption of carbs) vs. ability of insulin to lower it. So if an individual had normal insulin reactions and doing keto, this product might (stress -might) take longer to achieve goal weight. All this learned from School of Hard Knocks -- HTH. If you wish to research more, there is a book I'd highly recommend: Prescription for Nutritional Healing.0
This discussion has been closed.