Veggies - why do people keep saying we need (so many of) them?!
nvmomketo
Posts: 12,019 Member
This is where I get the stink eye from people over this diet - lack of veggies and all of their nutrients and fibre. I'm eating pretty low carb, my total carbs are usually under 30, but people can't believe that can be good for me. I suspect some of them think I am now losing weight because I'm sickly even though my skin has cleared up and I'm in less pain.
Does anyone have really good sites or sources of info that I can quote from to prove I am doing something that is healthy, or at least not less healthy than eating 50% carbs in a day? I'd like stuff I could state simply that is hard to argue with. It's only around the main boards that referring people to scientific studies is helpful, and I've about given up on that, so I'm looking for stuff most people would understand. Easy stats or popular books or doctors are best.
Any help or direction is much appreciated!
Does anyone have really good sites or sources of info that I can quote from to prove I am doing something that is healthy, or at least not less healthy than eating 50% carbs in a day? I'd like stuff I could state simply that is hard to argue with. It's only around the main boards that referring people to scientific studies is helpful, and I've about given up on that, so I'm looking for stuff most people would understand. Easy stats or popular books or doctors are best.
Any help or direction is much appreciated!
0
Replies
-
Vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and fiber. Some will argue that we don't need those things.
I'm looking into fiber this week, especially the anti-cancer mechanism. The answer might be surprising.
0 -
not less healthy than eating 50% carbs in a day?
there is prolly NO WAY to influence people who think we need 'balance' that word alone kills LCHF
Most people just can't wrap their minds around a no veggie diet..but also it isn't necearry eat NO veggie..I am following a plant based protein LCHF..tons of butter and fats…but almost zero meat..and losing weight/feeling well and enjoying the range of foods I do have.
possibly you can say this diet allows a wide range of options.
a bit related--
Jonathan Bailor started out promoting a plate 50% full of veggies, and lots of fatty meats, butter, etc. his approach I felt would be more accepted by the 'masses'….for the young crowd he promoted lots of exercise, and fats…so he really targeted his message from elderly to 20something. his site is SANEsolution
I am not longer thrilled with him as he is now selling $50. of desiccated veggies in a bag as "garden in a bowl"…very very costly serving of 50 vege & fruits…when Texassuperfoods sells at half the price for capsule form of same dried veggies. he's become a real hypster for LCHF…and it's not pretty to see, but he's built a company that needs to pay all the employees.
0 -
I wish I had something but my belief we don't need the recommended amount of vegetables to be healthy is based on anecdotal evidence and the fact I don't find the research (the recommendations are based on) particularly compelling.
You really can't argue with what people believe and a lot of people believe low carb is inherently unhealthy - regardless of what you actually eat. Even if you do eat vegetables they wouldn't be the right kinds of vegetables in the right amounts. lol
You can't win. I would just stick to a generic response along the lines of "thank you for the concern but I'm healthy/healthier than ever but if I start feeling poorly or my doctor expresses concern I'll be sure to re-evaluate my diet."0 -
This is where I get the stink eye from people over this diet - lack of veggies and all of their nutrients and fibre. I'm eating pretty low carb, my total carbs are usually under 30, but people can't believe that can be good for me. I suspect some of them think I am now losing weight because I'm sickly even though my skin has cleared up and I'm in less pain.
Does anyone have really good sites or sources of info that I can quote from to prove I am doing something that is healthy, or at least not less healthy than eating 50% carbs in a day? I'd like stuff I could state simply that is hard to argue with. It's only around the main boards that referring people to scientific studies is helpful, and I've about given up on that, so I'm looking for stuff most people would understand. Easy stats or popular books or doctors are best.
Any help or direction is much appreciated!
I eat way more veggies on low carb than I ever did before low carb. Back then my "veggies" were mainly potatoes, potato chips, corn chips and the like!0 -
And here's an article about me not being the only one. http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/low-carb-dieting.html
We actually eat MORE veggies... "Myth #12: Low carb, ketogenic diets are low in fiber, and so detrimental to your colon. ~ Incorrect. People who follow ketogenic diets eat more fibrous vegetables than they did when following the standard American diet. In fact, fibrous vegetables such as cabbage, spinach and salads make up a large part of the carb calories allowed on a ketogenic diet. See the results of this survey."0 -
I can only say what works for me
Veggies are the catalyst
I need my veggies to lose pounds. High fiber stuff
Cabbage and broccoli
I love kale
0 -
I definitely eat more veggies, but it's still a valid question whether we need them. Fit_Goat should be along shortly. 0
-
Meh, anyone who tells me that I need vegetables isn't worth the time it would take to convince them otherwise.
I have stopped arguing with people about veggies.0 -
Going for some coffee, eggs and bacon sourced from vegetation so they are going to be my vegetables for the day. I guess the eggs and bacon will have to be called "processed" vegetables however.
Lowest common denominator is we live on sunlight and some minerals.0 -
Meh, anyone who tells me that I need vegetables isn't worth the time it would take to convince them otherwise.
I have stopped arguing with people about veggies.
LOL
@JessicaLCHF That looks like a good link. Thanks.
So I should just go with it, I guess.... Let them have the last word and just smile and thank them. That's going to take some strength. LOL I can do that.
I'm not a huge veggie eater. I have some days where I eat a couple of cups of spinach, half a cuc and some pepppers, but most days usually just include a couple stalks of celery, a few baby carrots, and that's it. I realize that I could eat high veggie on a LCHF diet, but I definitely do not. Veggies are the vehicle that carries the dip to my mouth; a tasty vehicle but still...
I'm reluctant to eat many carbs. I find that most times I let my carbs approach 50g, my FBG is back up into the prediabetic range the next morning even if I still test in ketosis. If I keep total carbs well below 30g, my FBG stays normal.... I probably need a lot more months eating LCHF before that improves.
Thanks everyone. I always appreciate your honesty and differing points of view. 0 -
I eat very few vegetables. I'm not constipated, but I don't get why people think we need to have a big poo every day to be healthy. I'm okay with every couple of days. I'd much rather NOT be bloated all the time, but that's just me.0
-
I think FIT_Goat had some good arguments against veggies in another thread (too lazy to look for it), especially if you have allergies.
I was looking into fiber recently because of the mucus connection. Some low-carbers in Poland were getting GI cancers a few years ago. There was speculation that it might be due to low mucus production due to carb restriction.
Anyway, it turns out gut mucus production does need glucose, but it's also regulated by butyrate. Butyrate is a fermentation byproduct of, you guessed it, fiber.
This study gives additional mechanisms for cancer protection via dietary fiber:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3926973/
First, dietary fiber resists digestion in the small intestine, and enters the colon where it is fermented to produce SCFAs that may enhance the healthy composition of gut microbiota. Second, SCFAs have anticancer properties which include the promotion of cancer cell cycle arrest, apoptosis, and the inhibition of chronic inflammatory process and cancer cell migration/invasion in the colon. Importantly, these molecular activities are effective only within a certain physiological concentration range of the SCFAs. Third, dietary fiber increases fecal bulking and viscosity, reduces the time for proteolytic fermentation that results in harmful substances, and shortens the contact between potential carcinogens and mucosal cells. In addition, dietary fiber can bind/excrete potential luminal carcinogens (e.g., secondary bile acids), lower fecal pH in the colon, and thus provide a healthy intestinal environment.0 -
Ha. Just today my daughter asked my husband (who was talking about frying up pork chops for his dinner) what he was planning for his sides! I told her he doesn't need any sides, but she argued that she did not agree with that - that we need vegetables. Sigh... She is so brainwashed.
0 -
I think FIT_Goat had some good arguments against veggies in another thread (too lazy to look for it), especially if you have allergies.
I was looking into fiber recently because of the mucus connection. Some low-carbers in Poland were getting GI cancers a few years ago. There was speculation that it might be due to low mucus production due to carb restriction.
Anyway, it turns out gut mucus production does need glucose, but it's also regulated by butyrate. Butyrate is a fermentation byproduct of, you guessed it, fiber.
This study gives additional mechanisms for cancer protection via dietary fiber:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3926973/
First, dietary fiber resists digestion in the small intestine, and enters the colon where it is fermented to produce SCFAs that may enhance the healthy composition of gut microbiota. Second, SCFAs have anticancer properties which include the promotion of cancer cell cycle arrest, apoptosis, and the inhibition of chronic inflammatory process and cancer cell migration/invasion in the colon. Importantly, these molecular activities are effective only within a certain physiological concentration range of the SCFAs. Third, dietary fiber increases fecal bulking and viscosity, reduces the time for proteolytic fermentation that results in harmful substances, and shortens the contact between potential carcinogens and mucosal cells. In addition, dietary fiber can bind/excrete potential luminal carcinogens (e.g., secondary bile acids), lower fecal pH in the colon, and thus provide a healthy intestinal environment.
Thanks for sharing -- you always post great stuff. This would be one for the potential downsides thread. I thought the colon cancer and fiber link was done and dusted but I see this article is from last year so perhaps not. I think the research into the gut biome is absolutely fascinating but I'm still skeptical of a lot of the conclusions that are being drawn but the research is certainly exciting.
I'm still of the opinion that some vegetables (and consequently fiber) are good but the more is better claims not compelling. But I also eat a fair amount of vegetables, fruits and try and include things like beans in my diet so that might account for my somewhat cavalier attitude -- even if there's more to it than I believe my bases are at least partially covered in this regard.
0 -
Vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, and fiber. Some will argue that we don't need those things.
I'm looking into fiber this week, especially the anti-cancer mechanism. The answer might be surprising.
I agree with this. Most SAD diets are deficient in many micronutrients. There's also the roll of your gut biome affecting physical, metabolic, and neurological health, and veggies (fibrous ones, at least) provide the pre-biotic substance the bacteria and yeast need to establish that biome.
This week is not a good example, but I've otherwise managed 30-50 carbs a day almost exclusively from veggies, about 5-7 cups a day. I've been following the Paleo AIP to help manage a neuromuscular autoimmune disease, and a large component of that diet is focused on high micronutrient density to help heal.
Obviously, we all follow this WOE for our individual reasons. In no way should my reasons for eating veggies dictate your decisions, or vice versa!0 -
I reckon 2 year olds are smart. They hate veggies. I'm gonna a pretend to be 2. 99.9% of veggies taste yuck, feel gross in my mouth and do nothing for my digestive system. I'd rather starve than eat a green been.
I don't see why our bodies would set us up to value *kitten* that tastes like *kitten*.
I like avocados and I like mushrooms, a fruit and a fungus. I'll eat those.0 -
er...crap that tastes like poo...0
-
Because tonight's "Jersey Shore Boardwalk Sausage" wouldn't be the same without peppers & onions. 0
-
Does anyone have really good sites or sources of info that I can quote from to prove I am doing something that is healthy, or at least not less healthy than eating 50% carbs in a day? I'd like stuff I could state simply that is hard to argue with'
I am a gardener and love veggies, but Weston A Price (.org) has a lot of information about traditional dies which were extremely healthy and many did not contain many veggies. Think Eskimos for example.0 -
Ditto. I need, and want the veggies.KittensMaster wrote: »I can only say what works for me
Veggies are the catalyst
I need my veggies to lose pounds. High fiber stuff
Cabbage and broccoli
I love kale
0 -
Me too. Ppl don't like veggies??? Wha!??? Why!?!0
-
They taste so gross! Take so much effort to chew and offer so little calories as a reward.0
-
I reckon 2 year olds are smart. They hate veggies. I'm gonna a pretend to be 2. 99.9% of veggies taste yuck, feel gross in my mouth and do nothing for my digestive system. I'd rather starve than eat a green been.
I don't see why our bodies would set us up to value *kitten* that tastes like *kitten*.
I like avocados and I like mushrooms, a fruit and a fungus. I'll eat those.
Lol! Maybe it's genetic? I got in trouble all through early childhood for eating too many veggies from grandma's garden-- I'd eat all the carrots when they were tiny, and I'd eat a whole row of green beans if no one stopped me in time! I cried when I developed allergies to many veggies, I missed them!0 -
@fastforlife: 'traditional diets which were extremely healthy and many did not contain many veggies. Think Eskimos for example.'
Wikipedia with references: While it is not possible to cultivate native plants for food in the Arctic, the Inuit have traditionally gathered those that are naturally available[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] including: berries including crowberry and cloudberry
Herbaceous plants such as grasses, fireweed
tubers and stems including Mousefood, roots of various tundra plants which are cached by voles in underground burrows.
roots such as Tuberous Spring Beauty and Sweet Vetch
seaweed
Because the climate of the Arctic is ill-suited for agriculture and lacks forageable plant matter for much of the year, the traditional Inuit diet is lower in carbohydrates and higher in fat and animal protein compared to the global average. When carbohydrate intake is inadequate for total energy requirements, protein is broken down in the liver through gluconeogenesis and utilized as an energy source. Inuit studied in the 1970s were found to have abnormally large livers, presumably to assist in this process. Their urine volumes were also high, a result of the excess urea produced by gluconeogenesis.[9] However, in multiple studies the traditional Inuit diet has not been shown to be a ketogenic diet.[10][11][12][13] Not only have multiple researchers been unable to detect any evidence of ketosis resulting from the traditional Inuit Diet, but the ratios of fatty-acid to glucose were observed to be well below the generally accepted level of ketogenesis.[10][11][12][13]
Inuit actually consume more carbohydrates than most nutritionists have assumed.[14] Because Inuit frequently eat their meat raw and fresh, or freshly frozen, they can obtain more carbohydrates from their meat, as dietary glycogen, than Westerners can.[14][15] The Inuit practice of preserving a whole seal or bird carcass under an intact whole skin with a thick layer of blubber also permits some proteins to ferment, or hydrolyze, into carbohydrates.[14] Furthermore, the blubber, organs, muscle and skin of the marine mammals that the Inuit ate have significant glycogen stores which assist those animals when oxygen is depleted on prolonged dives.[16][17][18] For instance, when blubber is analyzed by direct carbohydrate measurements, it has been shown to contain as much as 8—30% carbohydrates.[17] While postmortem glycogen levels are often depleted through the onset of rigor mortis, marine mammals have a much delayed onset of rigor mortis, even in warm conditions, presumably due to the high content of oxymyoglobin in the muscle that may permit aerobic metabolism to continue slowly for some time after the death of the animal.[17][19] Additionally, in cold conditions, glycogen's depletion is halted at -18 °C (-0.4 °F) and lower temperatures in comminuted meat.[20][21]
Traditional Inuit diets derive approximately 50% of their calories from fat, 30-35% from protein and 15-20% of their calories from carbohydrates, largely in the form of glycogen from the raw meat they consumed.[22]
Vitamin C is obtained through sources such as caribou liver, kelp, whale skin, and seal brain; because these foods are typically eaten raw or frozen, the vitamin C they contain, which would be destroyed by cooking, is instead preserved.[26]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_diet
0 -
I definitely eat more veggies, but it's still a valid question whether we need them. Fit_Goat should be along shortly.
Sometimes it seems people are different from each other
Our forum is good for respecting that.
I'm the only low carb person in my bike group. But I'm one of the better sprinters which seems to go against the notion one needs carbs for energy bursts
0 -
KittensMaster wrote: »
True for both physiology and for mindsets.
Some people theorize that the only reason we eat plants is because the plants tricked us into it so we would disperse their seeds. The sweet fructose is bait! And it's poisonous to both us and plants. The plants produce antioxidants to protect themselves from the poisonous fructose. The theory goes that we wouldn't need the antioxidants if we'd just stop eating the fructose.
I'm the only low carb person in my bike group. But I'm one of the better sprinters which seems to go against the notion one needs carbs for energy bursts
That's the beauty of fat-adaptation. It conserves glycogen for when you really need it. Those sugar eaters are probably running out of glycogen by the end of your sprint.
0 -
AlabasterVerve wrote: »I think FIT_Goat had some good arguments against veggies in another thread (too lazy to look for it), especially if you have allergies.
I was looking into fiber recently because of the mucus connection. Some low-carbers in Poland were getting GI cancers a few years ago. There was speculation that it might be due to low mucus production due to carb restriction.
Anyway, it turns out gut mucus production does need glucose, but it's also regulated by butyrate. Butyrate is a fermentation byproduct of, you guessed it, fiber.
This study gives additional mechanisms for cancer protection via dietary fiber:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3926973/
First, dietary fiber resists digestion in the small intestine, and enters the colon where it is fermented to produce SCFAs that may enhance the healthy composition of gut microbiota. Second, SCFAs have anticancer properties which include the promotion of cancer cell cycle arrest, apoptosis, and the inhibition of chronic inflammatory process and cancer cell migration/invasion in the colon. Importantly, these molecular activities are effective only within a certain physiological concentration range of the SCFAs. Third, dietary fiber increases fecal bulking and viscosity, reduces the time for proteolytic fermentation that results in harmful substances, and shortens the contact between potential carcinogens and mucosal cells. In addition, dietary fiber can bind/excrete potential luminal carcinogens (e.g., secondary bile acids), lower fecal pH in the colon, and thus provide a healthy intestinal environment.
Thanks for sharing -- you always post great stuff. This would be one for the potential downsides thread. I thought the colon cancer and fiber link was done and dusted but I see this article is from last year so perhaps not. I think the research into the gut biome is absolutely fascinating but I'm still skeptical of a lot of the conclusions that are being drawn but the research is certainly exciting.
I'm still of the opinion that some vegetables (and consequently fiber) are good but the more is better claims not compelling. But I also eat a fair amount of vegetables, fruits and try and include things like beans in my diet so that might account for my somewhat cavalier attitude -- even if there's more to it than I believe my bases are at least partially covered in this regard.
The fibre and BM argument doesn't seem to fit well with me. I was an undiagnosed celiac for close to four decades, and consequently I was constipated my entire life. I thought I was normal until I finally started to heal, and treated my hypothyroidism correctly, when I had normal BM's. I honestly thought I had D - I had no idea what normal was.
Eating LC or HF has made things move even better for me. Much better than the fibre supplements I used to take. It's surprising.
I don't doubt fibre is good for our intestinal health though. That's something to keep in mind. 0 -
I reckon 2 year olds are smart. They hate veggies. I'm gonna a pretend to be 2. 99.9% of veggies taste yuck, feel gross in my mouth and do nothing for my digestive system. I'd rather starve than eat a green been.
I don't see why our bodies would set us up to value *kitten* that tastes like *kitten*.
I like avocados and I like mushrooms, a fruit and a fungus. I'll eat those.
Lol! Maybe it's genetic? I got in trouble all through early childhood for eating too many veggies from grandma's garden-- I'd eat all the carrots when they were tiny, and I'd eat a whole row of green beans if no one stopped me in time! I cried when I developed allergies to many veggies, I missed them!
Could be not genetic but maybe upbringing. My mom always kept an acre garden (victory garden). Silver queen corn, bush beans, sugar snap peas, carrots, pumpkins, strawberries, asparagus, beets, lettuce, spinach, etc! We sold excess at a local farmers market which were some of some fond childhood memories as well as my first job running the welcome table (free coffee and cheap donuts).
Me and my brother would dress up like Indians (sorry I know that's not pc today) and crawl around the garden on our bellies "stealing" veggies from the "wicked villagers" (my mom, weeding) taking care not to be caught. Then we ate them raw and unwashed (she was into organic gardening) in the teepee (treehouse).
As kids my mom allowed us each one veggie we could skip (mine was beets, not cause I didn't like them but they did weird color things to my, ummm, waste) and my brothers was onions. We had two veggies every night at dinner. The only veggie I don't like to this day is spaghetti squash. But maybe that's cause mom never grew it?0 -
@cheesy567, I'm truly sorry for your allergy!
0 -
I reckon 2 year olds are smart. They hate veggies. I'm gonna a pretend to be 2. 99.9% of veggies taste yuck, feel gross in my mouth and do nothing for my digestive system. I'd rather starve than eat a green been.
I don't see why our bodies would set us up to value *kitten* that tastes like *kitten*.
I like avocados and I like mushrooms, a fruit and a fungus. I'll eat those.
0
This discussion has been closed.