joint pain....
DianaElena76
Posts: 1,241 Member
So I went off plan a bit this weekend, starting on Friday... carb levels up to 150ish or so. I noticed yesterday my knee, lower back, and hips were hurting again. I guess I didn't realize they'd stopped hurting until they started again. Carb-related? Or just a coincidence?
0
Replies
-
@Mami1976D read some of my posts. I got into ketosis as a way of life for pain management nearly a year ago.
It cured my IBS of 40 years in six months and is giving me about a 3 pound a month weight loss on average at 2600 calories daily are just side effects in my case but welcomed.
Folks some of you need to read up on current info about sugar or it may kill you.
I do NOT know why my body started to reacting to carbs many years ago. Not all react to carbs like my body did starting about 40 years ago and still does today.
If you are one with a body that flips out in a bad way if fed carbs you must act now before it ends badly for you.
Again I do NOT know why sugar is toxic to my body and that is not really important that I now know sugar is toxic to me because I am smart enough to stop putting sugar into my body now. I did not know this 40 years ago to prevent wrecking my body and health. Being off of sugar and grains (carbs) for nearly a year gives me hope of living more years AND be able to walk and talk those added years.
0 -
150g is still pretty low. Your brain can slurp all of that up in a day.
But as Gale suggests, it could be inflammation due to the source of carbs, like grains. There are even cases of bacteria causing joint pain, and some of those little guys love glucose.0 -
I expect my heavy use of coconut oil may have killed off or limited the number of some bad gut critters of some type that was in part a cause of my pain. Bateria, cancer and most all things that can kill us or make us wish were were dead live on GLUCOSE we know.0
-
Well, back on track it is, either way. I was just curious, as the knee pain had gone away quite some time ago and had not yet been aggravated by the stairs to our new third-floor apartment... until I increased my carbs for a couple days in a row. It's definitely another NSV to have minimal joint pain while on this WOE. 0
-
I also have added Hyaluronic Acid to my supplements to see if I can rescue any remaining cartilage! It helps with joint discomfort, though for me it took a while and adjusted dosage to get there.0
-
I need to read up on Hyaluronic Acid.0
-
That pain is what keeps me from eating them. It's been the best motivation, for me, for any woe, ever! At least I get to eat awesome food!0
-
That pain is what keeps me from eating them. It's been the best motivation, for me, for any woe, ever! At least I get to eat awesome food!
Good to know. And yes, in general the way I feel when eating LCHF is so much better. I had forgotten how gross I felt after each meal when I ate high carb.0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »I also have added Hyaluronic Acid to my supplements to see if I can rescue any remaining cartilage! It helps with joint discomfort, though for me it took a while and adjusted dosage to get there.
Maybe I'll look into this.0 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »I need to read up on Hyaluronic Acid.
@Dragonwolf posted some good information on it recently, and it has helped restore her back function. @carimiller7391 also has had great success with it. I have to attribute the fact that I have successively had to ice my knee less and less to this as well. It is a less common usage to use it this way, orally, as it is typically injected directly in surgery and recovery, but it really seems to help my pain levels.KnitOrMiss wrote: »I also have added Hyaluronic Acid to my supplements to see if I can rescue any remaining cartilage! It helps with joint discomfort, though for me it took a while and adjusted dosage to get there.
Maybe I'll look into this.
I got mine for $10 at WM for 60 or 90 capsules, but I'm sure there is far better quality available, I wanted to try the cheap stuff first to see if it was worth researching and investing in better quality.0 -
This is the study that Phinney and Volek refer to as the mechanism for reduced inflammation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735349/
Our observation that βOHB is an endogenous HDAC inhibitor present in organisms at millimolar concentrations during prolonged fasting and CR reveals an example of integration between metabolic status and epigenetic changes. We show that changes in histone acetylation and gene expression caused by βOHB promote stress resistance in the kidney.
OK, that wasn't very specific to joint inflammation. This might connect the dots:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21327299
In conclusion, inhibition of HDAC prevents joint inflammation and cartilage and bone destruction in experimental arthritis.
So ketones inhibit HDAC. That down-regulates generation of inflammatory cytokines. And that relieves joint pain.0 -
Thanks for the info, @wabmester! I noticed last night that I've had joint pain at bedtime over the past few nights, bad enough to keep me from falling asleep easily... which coincides with my eating more carbs than usual lately. Going back to 70/20/10 and target 50g gross carbs to see if the pain goes away.0
-
mlinton_mesapark wrote: »Thanks for the info, @wabmester! I noticed last night that I've had joint pain at bedtime over the past few nights, bad enough to keep me from falling asleep easily... which coincides with my eating more carbs than usual lately. Going back to 70/20/10 and target 50g gross carbs to see if the pain goes away.
Ditto.0 -
mlinton_mesapark wrote: »Thanks for the info, @wabmester! I noticed last night that I've had joint pain at bedtime over the past few nights, bad enough to keep me from falling asleep easily... which coincides with my eating more carbs than usual lately. Going back to 70/20/10 and target 50g gross carbs to see if the pain goes away.
me too, thanks!0 -
This is the study that Phinney and Volek refer to as the mechanism for reduced inflammation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3735349/
Our observation that βOHB is an endogenous HDAC inhibitor present in organisms at millimolar concentrations during prolonged fasting and CR reveals an example of integration between metabolic status and epigenetic changes. We show that changes in histone acetylation and gene expression caused by βOHB promote stress resistance in the kidney.
OK, that wasn't very specific to joint inflammation. This might connect the dots:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21327299
In conclusion, inhibition of HDAC prevents joint inflammation and cartilage and bone destruction in experimental arthritis.
So ketones inhibit HDAC. That down-regulates generation of inflammatory cytokines. And that relieves joint pain.
Thanks wabmester I live for research like this. Below is the last paragraph of the first link.
" Our observation that βOHB is an endogenous HDAC inhibitor present in organisms at millimolar concentrations during prolonged fasting and CR reveals an example of integration between metabolic status and epigenetic changes. We show that changes in histone acetylation and gene expression caused by βOHB promote stress resistance in the kidney. Future studies should investigate the specific gene expression and physiological effects of βOHB in other tissues. For example, low-carbohydrate diets that induce substantial ketogenesis are broadly neuroprotective and enhance resistance of neurons to oxidative damage (20). In addition, reduction in HDAC activity by either genetic manipulation or chemical inhibition extends life span in Drosophila (21, 22). Inhibition of HDACs by βOHB might contribute to the beneficial effect of ketogenic diets and may be one mechanism by which calorie restriction confers health benefits."
Below is the link to Reference 20 in the above paragraph. It contains good info about living in nutritional ketosis.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17403035
Text from the link:
Abstract in part.
"Ketone bodies (KB) have been shown to prevent neurodegeneration in models of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's diseases.... our data suggest that KB may prevent mPT and oxidative injury in neocortical neurons, most likely by decreasing mitochondrial ROS production."
If burning ketones vs glucose may decrease mitochondrial ROS production you may find the below article of interest concerning keto eating possible role in preventing cancers, hypertension, atherosclerosis and other inflammatory diseases.
jhoonline.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1756-8722-6-19
Research articles can have many new words so read the research articles skipping the terms that are new and often the major points can be understood. If you are using Google Chrome you can highlight terms then just right click on the word or group of words to do a Google search for the meaning.
I am guessing this info is how after 30 day my pain was managed quite well by staying in a state of nutritional ketosis and how my long term IBS was cured in 6 months.0 -
Short article on Sugar and Inflammation by Dr. Brownstein
http://www.centerforholisticmedicine.com/blog/general-health/refined-sugar-impairs-immunity/
I cannot stress enough the dangers of eating refined sugar. Researchers have shown that white blood cells, the first line of defense of our immune system, become dysfunctional for up to five hours after ingestion of refined sugar. Needless to say, inactivating the first step in our immune system is never a good thing to do. Every patient I have treated who removed all sources of refined sugar from their diet has seen a significant improvement in their health.
Most of us DO NOT eat refined sugar specifically when we go High Carb..but usually there is some form of sugar in what we did eat..0 -
Has your pain gotten any better? I'm going through the same thing but my carbs haven't been overly high for an extended period. I hope you're feeling better.0
-
I've been trying to do better on my carbs but still going quite a bit over my goal, up to the 60s. And the pain is still there. *sigh*0
-
I'm sorry that really stinks, your still pretty low carb though, I hope it clears up soon0
-
Thanks. My body is falling apart, and I've got to get it back together! Foot pain, sciatic nerve pain, lower back pain... at least my hips stopped hurting again. 0
-
I've been trying to do better on my carbs but still going quite a bit over my goal, up to the 60s. And the pain is still there. *sigh*
I see three possible causes:
Grains (the low carb tortillas, tortilla chips, etc)
Legumes (black beans, peanuts)
Nightshades (the tomato bases)
I know for me, the biggest inflammation culprit were the grains. Try dropping them out and switch to things like salads (instead of tacos) and lettuce wraps for a week or two and see how you feel. It should also help with your carb goal.
If you're still having issues, drop the nightshades (yeah, that means dropping the tomatoes; sad, I know). Again, give it a week or two and see how you feel.
(I would recommend keeping the grains out until you get rid of your pain/inflammation, then re-introduce things. That way, you have a no-pain baseline from which to work.)KnitOrMiss wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I need to read up on Hyaluronic Acid.
@Dragonwolf posted some good information on it recently, and it has helped restore her back function. @carimiller7391 also has had great success with it. I have to attribute the fact that I have successively had to ice my knee less and less to this as well. It is a less common usage to use it this way, orally, as it is typically injected directly in surgery and recovery, but it really seems to help my pain levels.
It was literally a life-saver for me. I have degenerative disc disease in my L4-L5 and L5-S1 discs (the ones at the base of the spine, right where it meets the hips). It got to a point where I was having trouble moving at all without excruciating pain. Despite chiropractic help and massage therapy, I was still in a large amount of pain (the chiro was able to take some of the pressure off and keep the vertebrae from crushing what was left of the discs, while the massage therapy helped with the muscle imbalances and other issues that stemmed from the spinal issue).
I basically started getting desperate and found Hyaluronic Acid. At the time, I had wanted to do more research (since I was finding mixed info, but a lot was done with the injections and wanted to get more info about the oral supplement), but I got to the point where I felt I had nothing to lose by trying it.
I buy NOW Foods brand, which is $18 for 120 caps on Amazon, which is a 2-month supply at 2 caps per day. At that dose, I started feeling better after about a week, and by the end of two weeks, my total pain had gone from the 7-9 range to the 2-4 range, most of which feels like muscle pain/tightness from having a desk job and residual from the imbalances caused by the since-corrected compression issue that threw my spine and hips out of alignment.
The caveat that I found was that it works best for "wear and tear" type of joint issues - osteoarthritis, injuries, degenerative disc disease, etc. - but can backfire for inflammation type joint issues - rheumatoid arthritis, etc. So be aware of what the cause of your pain is before trying HA, and if pain increases, stop supplementing. (HA works by hydrating the joint tissue, which can increase their mass. This works great if your joints are "drying up," but if they're inflamed, you're just adding more pressure to them, basically.)
Another nice thing that I found is that it doesn't seem to require constant supplementing to keep the benefits. You can take it for a few weeks, or just use up the bottle, and you might not have to keep going with it. It doesn't seem to hurt, though, so another good option is dropping to a "maintenance dose" of 1 cap a day.0 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »I've been trying to do better on my carbs but still going quite a bit over my goal, up to the 60s. And the pain is still there. *sigh*
I see three possible causes:
Grains (the low carb tortillas, tortilla chips, etc)
Legumes (black beans, peanuts)
Nightshades (the tomato bases)
I know for me, the biggest inflammation culprit were the grains. Try dropping them out and switch to things like salads (instead of tacos) and lettuce wraps for a week or two and see how you feel. It should also help with your carb goal.
If you're still having issues, drop the nightshades (yeah, that means dropping the tomatoes; sad, I know). Again, give it a week or two and see how you feel.
(I would recommend keeping the grains out until you get rid of your pain/inflammation, then re-introduce things. That way, you have a no-pain baseline from which to work.)KnitOrMiss wrote: »GaleHawkins wrote: »I need to read up on Hyaluronic Acid.
@Dragonwolf posted some good information on it recently, and it has helped restore her back function. @carimiller7391 also has had great success with it. I have to attribute the fact that I have successively had to ice my knee less and less to this as well. It is a less common usage to use it this way, orally, as it is typically injected directly in surgery and recovery, but it really seems to help my pain levels.
It was literally a life-saver for me. I have degenerative disc disease in my L4-L5 and L5-S1 discs (the ones at the base of the spine, right where it meets the hips). It got to a point where I was having trouble moving at all without excruciating pain. Despite chiropractic help and massage therapy, I was still in a large amount of pain (the chiro was able to take some of the pressure off and keep the vertebrae from crushing what was left of the discs, while the massage therapy helped with the muscle imbalances and other issues that stemmed from the spinal issue).
I basically started getting desperate and found Hyaluronic Acid. At the time, I had wanted to do more research (since I was finding mixed info, but a lot was done with the injections and wanted to get more info about the oral supplement), but I got to the point where I felt I had nothing to lose by trying it.
I buy NOW Foods brand, which is $18 for 120 caps on Amazon, which is a 2-month supply at 2 caps per day. At that dose, I started feeling better after about a week, and by the end of two weeks, my total pain had gone from the 7-9 range to the 2-4 range, most of which feels like muscle pain/tightness from having a desk job and residual from the imbalances caused by the since-corrected compression issue that threw my spine and hips out of alignment.
The caveat that I found was that it works best for "wear and tear" type of joint issues - osteoarthritis, injuries, degenerative disc disease, etc. - but can backfire for inflammation type joint issues - rheumatoid arthritis, etc. So be aware of what the cause of your pain is before trying HA, and if pain increases, stop supplementing. (HA works by hydrating the joint tissue, which can increase their mass. This works great if your joints are "drying up," but if they're inflamed, you're just adding more pressure to them, basically.)
Another nice thing that I found is that it doesn't seem to require constant supplementing to keep the benefits. You can take it for a few weeks, or just use up the bottle, and you might not have to keep going with it. It doesn't seem to hurt, though, so another good option is dropping to a "maintenance dose" of 1 cap a day.
So here's an odd thought. My knee has gotten better, but my wrist is the same, and occasionally worse, but the knee is a wear and tear thing, and part of my wrist problem has been wear and tear AND inflammation. I'm wondering what to do now... SIGH0 -
Before I cut carbs to <50 grams by stopping eating food containing sugar and or grains my joint pain levels stayed very high. I had added coconut oil 2 months before I left carbs cold turkey and still had the pain. The coconut oil may have played a role in my IBS being cured within six months after ditching food containing sugar and grains. 30 days after I cut out food containing sugar and or grains my pain level tumbled by the end of Oct 2014 and still remain low 11 months later.0
-
Wow, so much info. I'm going to get back on plan... once my awesome Puerto Rican food is finished. I ran out of the low carb tortillas and don't intend to keep them in the house anyway, so I won't replace them. And the corn chips and stuff like that are obviously not part of my plan, so out they go. Nightshades include so many of my favorites, though, so I'll start with the legumes (I don't even like beans anyway, but peanut butter?!) and grains.... 0
-
I did the May challenge of eating only from the animal kingdom for that month. Mid June I began to add back one higher carb food (onions, mushrooms, tomatoes, avocado) one at a time and have been able to see how they affect me. Has been a great way to eliminate foods that my body doesn't like. Such as, onions clogging my sinuses and tomatoes increase my fibromyalgia pain. This woe has helped me in many ways!0
-
Have you tried making cheese taco shells? That's what I do when I'm in the mood for tacos. Put a piece of parchment paper in the bottom of a fry pan on medium heat. Cover it, not too thick, with shredded cheese. When it all melts together and starts turning brown and crispy on the ends, turn it over for just a minute or two. Then take it out and drape it over a wooden spoon handle or something similar until it dries and hardens. LC taco shell - no grains. It might take a bit of practice, my first couple were lopsided and a bit out of shape, LOL. but it's not that hard. Also works as a flat "tortilla" base, or fill and roll for enchiladas. Use mozzarella cheese as a flat pizza base.0
-
DebraWilliams1 wrote: »Have you tried making cheese taco shells? That's what I do when I'm in the mood for tacos. Put a piece of parchment paper in the bottom of a fry pan on medium heat. Cover it, not too thick, with shredded cheese. When it all melts together and starts turning brown and crispy on the ends, turn it over for just a minute or two. Then take it out and drape it over a wooden spoon handle or something similar until it dries and hardens. LC taco shell - no grains. It might take a bit of practice, my first couple were lopsided and a bit out of shape, LOL. but it's not that hard. Also works as a flat "tortilla" base, or fill and roll for enchiladas. Use mozzarella cheese as a flat pizza base.
Yum! I do make cheese chips, but never taco shells. That's a must-try! 0 -
I did the May challenge of eating only from the animal kingdom for that month. Mid June I began to add back one higher carb food (onions, mushrooms, tomatoes, avocado) one at a time and have been able to see how they affect me. Has been a great way to eliminate foods that my body doesn't like. Such as, onions clogging my sinuses and tomatoes increase my fibromyalgia pain. This woe has helped me in many ways!
I have noticed onions and my body are not friends. But I should do an elimination diet to pinpoint where my problem areas are.0
