Keto vs LC question.

carimiller7391

OK.. I've read the launch pad 3 or 4 times trying to understand. My long story short version. I've had 3 (yes all 3) bariatric surgeries. Really wish I found this site/thread/group and some of the awesome people I call friends before having the 3rd surgery in Jan 2015. I need to lose about 140-150lbs still. I started off 411, now 289.0 this morning. I know I have a long long road ahead of me.... but which is better for weight loss. I already feel the affects of the LCHFMP plan. Puffiness in face and legs has started to subside. A little more energy, not jumping out of bed yet, but looking forward to the day it happens.

My understanding is, ketosis will put you in a mode where your body burns fat for fuel, instead of carbs (yes, I'm very technical, right) LOL. LC is just a healthier way of eating for those of us who believe that carbs are the enemy. A side effect of LC is some weight loss, but not to the extreme of keto... Do I have any of this right?? I keep net carbs to 25 per day or less 99.0% of the days.

Any help anyone could offer would be so appreciated?? I guess I just need to validate that I am doing this right.

Thanks!!!

wabmester

There are no well-accepted definitions, but there are physiological differences. In a nutshell:

Above 200g = high carb. SAD.
< 150g = mild ketosis.
< 50g = strong ketosis.
< 30g = below minimum brain needs for glucose, which means you'll start burning protein for sure.

Low-carb is typically under 150g. That's only 600 calories in carbs, so you'll obviously burn a bunch of fat for fuel.

The "fat burning mode" of ketosis is sort of marketing hype, but ketones are made from fat, and there are several potential health benefits of making ketones, so I'm not going to try to talk you out of it.

In terms of weight loss, both LC and keto are pretty close -- it's mostly about the reduction in appetite and the reduction in insulin.

Try keto. Crank up your sodium intake if you feel any signs of the "flu."

KittensMaster

The 80-100 worked for me!

Good luck on this try at it.

Sunny_Bunny_

Let your appetite or other effects help determine your carb limit. If you start to swell when you go above a certain amount, then stay below that. If you have trouble with appetite control if you go over a certain amount, then stay under that. You'll lose weight either way as long as you stick to your plan once you iron it out.

carimiller7391

Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom. I've just been feeling a bit deprived at 25g net carbs. I'll keep it between 25-50g net carbs for about a month and see how I do.

KnitOrMiss

carimiller7391 wrote: »

Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom. I've just been feeling a bit deprived at 25g net carbs. I'll keep it between 25-50g net carbs for about a month and see how I do.

I would agree to this feeling of "deprivation" only if you are referring to nutritious foods like veggies. I would not up your carb limit to incorporate breads or treats or anything like that. I would do a hard look at what I feel deprived from - and where my current carbs are being "spent," because there may be lower carb swaps for what you are currently eating that would still allow more veg in...

I just worry about words like deprived, because to me, that shows and red-flags and emotional response and emotional eating. If I'm off base, ignore me... If not, do some thinking! (hugs)

EDITED TO ADD: I would also focus on sticking with your original plan a full 4-6 weeks before making any adjustments, then only making adjustments after a 4 or so week period so you can isolate problems, changes, good benefits, etc. Patience is key to low carbing it...patience and scientific exploration.

KarlaYP

I love what Carly said! Feeling of deprivation are tough to deal with and can lead to poor choices. I'm sure deprived isn't the correct word for you. I would think some boredom can come in to play, making us feel deprived. Make sure you are eating a variety of LCHF foods to keep this from being an issue.

I always heard that WLS may not work for some. I am one too! I, also, wish I would have found this woe before having my intestines cut. But, it is what it is and I'm dealing with it! I do know that success will be greater this way too (and I can see it happening - with the surgeries I couldn't ever see it)!

carimiller7391

Good call Carly, I'll stick to the original 25g net carbs per day for another 2 weeks. Today is the middle of week 3 for me.... and I'm not missing bread or junk food. I still have a piece of 72% dark cocoa once every few days. I'm just missing some variety. I use to enjoy apple with PB.... I miss that. But I'd like to be able to incorporate it into my day... NOT daily, but once in awhile. I will plan better and see about incorporating some different veggies and lower carb fruit into my plan. Again, not daily.. but on occasion.

KnitOrMiss

carimiller7391 wrote: »

Good call Carly, I'll stick to the original 25g net carbs per day for another 2 weeks. Today is the middle of week 3 for me.... and I'm not missing bread or junk food. I still have a piece of 72% dark cocoa once every few days. I'm just missing some variety. I use to enjoy apple with PB.... I miss that. But I'd like to be able to incorporate it into my day... NOT daily, but once in awhile. I will plan better and see about incorporating some different veggies and lower carb fruit into my plan. Again, not daily.. but on occasion.

I used to be an apple a day type. Honestly, I don't miss them anymore. But if you were to get a single granny smith apple, and eat like a quarter of it a day (lemon-ing the rest), and use natural peanut butter in limited quantity, and were careful with the rest of your macros, I bet you could fit it in now. But you would have to make sure to be very careful not to want to binge eat the rest. Also, what about an apple scented/lightly flavored peanut butter fat bomb? Or is it the crunch factor?

I found that I really had to hit that 8-12 week zone before I realized how much I didn't miss the foods I thought I could never live without. I eat strawberries about once a month. Now that I'm heading into this kombucha venture, I'm hoping to add a little more fermented fruit in periodically.

And being almost 7 months keto, I can tell you that once you are adapted, you'll have far more flexibility to adjust one day a month (maybe two days if you do it right, but staggered) to be slightly higher to enjoy an apple or berries or whatever without much detriment. I keep finding myself shocked that I've been on a fairly restrictive eating plan (fairly permissive, too, admittedly) since January. I'm almost at 8 months low carb and 7 months keto. I've never been able to stick with anything that long, ever, except maybe laziness!!!

Of course, like all things, there are waxing and waning phases, but I am loving the changes my eating has made in my life.

ki4eld

carimiller7391 wrote: »

OK.. I've read the launch pad 3 or 4 times trying to understand. My long story short version. I've had 3 (yes all 3) bariatric surgeries. Really wish I found this site/thread/group and some of the awesome people I call friends before having the 3rd surgery in Jan 2015. I need to lose about 140-150lbs still. I started off 411, now 289.0 this morning. I know I have a long long road ahead of me.... but which is better for weight loss. I already feel the affects of the LCHFMP plan. Puffiness in face and legs has started to subside. A little more energy, not jumping out of bed yet, but looking forward to the day it happens.

My understanding is, ketosis will put you in a mode where your body burns fat for fuel, instead of carbs (yes, I'm very technical, right) LOL. LC is just a healthier way of eating for those of us who believe that carbs are the enemy. A side effect of LC is some weight loss, but not to the extreme of keto... Do I have any of this right?? I keep net carbs to 25 per day or less 99.0% of the days.

Any help anyone could offer would be so appreciated?? I guess I just need to validate that I am doing this right.

Thanks!!!

My RNY was January 19th.

I just kept dropping the carbs until I found a place I liked and that liked me. Granted, my doctors and dietitian jack around my diet (like today, for instance), but I'm happiest in the 20-30g range, at least for now. There's a lot of finagling to find your sweet spot. Plus with the malabsorption, you might eat 30g, but that doesn't mean you're absorbing 30g. You could be getting 5g or 29g. So, don't be afraid to move the mark about every 10 days up or down 5g to see what feels best.

KnitOrMiss

2Poufs wrote: »

carimiller7391 wrote: »

OK.. I've read the launch pad 3 or 4 times trying to understand. My long story short version. I've had 3 (yes all 3) bariatric surgeries. Really wish I found this site/thread/group and some of the awesome people I call friends before having the 3rd surgery in Jan 2015. I need to lose about 140-150lbs still. I started off 411, now 289.0 this morning. I know I have a long long road ahead of me.... but which is better for weight loss. I already feel the affects of the LCHFMP plan. Puffiness in face and legs has started to subside. A little more energy, not jumping out of bed yet, but looking forward to the day it happens.

My understanding is, ketosis will put you in a mode where your body burns fat for fuel, instead of carbs (yes, I'm very technical, right) LOL. LC is just a healthier way of eating for those of us who believe that carbs are the enemy. A side effect of LC is some weight loss, but not to the extreme of keto... Do I have any of this right?? I keep net carbs to 25 per day or less 99.0% of the days.

Any help anyone could offer would be so appreciated?? I guess I just need to validate that I am doing this right.

Thanks!!!

My RNY was January 19th.

I just kept dropping the carbs until I found a place I liked and that liked me. Granted, my doctors and dietitian jack around my diet (like today, for instance), but I'm happiest in the 20-30g range, at least for now. There's a lot of finagling to find your sweet spot. Plus with the malabsorption, you might eat 30g, but that doesn't mean you're absorbing 30g. You could be getting 5g or 29g. So, don't be afraid to move the mark about every 10 days up or down 5g to see what feels best.

Awesome advice!!!

greenautumn17

RE Apples - Didn't someone on here say that most of the carbs are in the flesh? So you can probably eat the peel with natural PB for a small sweet.

Foamroller

This is my understanding:
State of Nutritional Ketosis (NK) is a tool to achieve and sustain Fat Adaptation (FA). Body using primarily fat and ketones for energy.

The carb threshold that kicks you out of NK is individual. Some feel better at zerocarb, some feel better at 120g net. Most of us fall somewhere in between. Experiment to find your individual threshold. The longer I'm in FA, the more my body wants it. I find I can briefly be out of NK without trouble. FA is intact. The higher your carb count is, the more you risk getting kicked out of NK. It's a balancing act.

I agree on the comments already made that eating nutrient rich foods that [strikethrough]keeps [/strikethrough] enhances hormonal balance, rather than lots of substitutes every day is probably better for health and fat loss. But we all have to compromise on occasion

KittensMaster

You can be in a glycogen deleted state at 200 carbs if you ride for 40 miles!

I have noticed that since I have added about 20 lbs of muscle over 2 years, it is a bit easier to be flexible on carbs

Maybe the right term would be easier to blast thru dietary carbs and stay in a keto state

But to understand it I owe much to our good friend Wab and researching a very strange and mysterious organelle, the mitochondria

It is the fuel furnace and directs carbs or fat to be burnt in the optimal mix

This stuff isn't complex. But not understanding the role of lean body mass leaves one with an incomplete picture

I was not able to burn the last 30 pounds until getting a grasp on that and modify my diet exercise program

This last 10 pounds will be interesting

It seems so counterintuitive to eat so much fat to most people

But as I'm losing torso fat and even seeing veins appear in my hip flexors...

It works

It is wild how incredibly backwards the standard American diet is.

At least for me.

Awesome comments in this thread!

I love this group. It has really been a huge help

Thank you

carimiller7391

Thanks for the great advice everyone. I think Karla may have hit the nail on the head... more bored then deprived. I'll stick to the 25g net for another 9 days and see how I feel and than I'll play around with the carb macros and see how I feel. I think I need to review the recipes also.

wabmester

I've found that it's dangerous to disagree with @foamroller, but fat adaptation is somewhat ambiguous. For sedentary people, it may be mostly the effect of lowered insulin, and that happens relatively quickly. This is something the recent Hall study reinforced.

For athletes, it may be something else. Those new mitochondria that are made seem to require a trigger for biogenesis, and that trigger may be oxidative stress -- i.e., specifically pushing the muscles into the anaerobic zone.

So different environments, different stressors, different results, different meanings of "fat adaptation."

KittensMaster

Interesting wholistic approach @wabmester

I really have just rode the results and tried to reverse engineer things

I'm the lightest I have been in 30 years. Possibly best physical shape ever.

There is something to stressor response and type of diet.

Higher protein and fat diet combined with anaerobic exercise is a powerful metabolic change agent.

I have read before that Muscle is King. There does seem to be a tipping point on LBM percentage.

Interesting thread!

KarlaYP

Hey @carimiller7391, playing around with the recipies can add that variety you may feel you are missing. There are too many websites with different LCHF recipies to list, but I recommend finding one, or more, that use the foods you like in different ways. It's not always fun eating the same thing all the time for some of us (we can't all be like Fit_Goat, lol!)and boredom can set in. Look for any new way to cook the food you like in different ways. Hang in there! We all have to adjust things at times!

@Wab and Kitt, interesting discussion regarding the cellular level of fat burning! I am thankful for the educational information you provide that helps us understand how this woe works!

Foamroller

wabmester wrote: »

I've found that it's dangerous to disagree with @foamroller, but fat adaptation is somewhat ambiguous. For sedentary people, it may be mostly the effect of lowered insulin, and that happens relatively quickly. This is something the recent Hall study reinforced.

For athletes, it may be something else. Those new mitochondria that are made seem to require a trigger for biogenesis, and that trigger may be oxidative stress -- i.e., specifically pushing the muscles into the anaerobic zone.

So different environments, different stressors, different results, different meanings of "fat adaptation."

Hmm, I didn't know it's dangerous to disagree with me. That has never been my intention. I'm sorry if it has come off that way, cause that's not what I want.

A good discussion is about putting up the best arguments we can find to shed light on a topic. I come from a profession where one gets slaughtered at morning meetings if you present a weak unfounded idea. It's highly competitive, so you gotta be quite source critical, or end up waste a lot of time. I'm a very passionate person, but I think that getting good contra arguments is a good thing. Convince me I'm wrong, but you gotta work for it

Re FA sedentary vs physically active people. FA is in itself very understudied. We all here are sorta pioneers, making our own N=1. I don't think we disagree on this wab. My theory is that training enhances the state of FA. The body loves to be in FA. The body also loves to train, it probably upregulates all vital processes in the body: higher metabolism, more «efficient» (depending on how you see it) better nutrient flow, more capillaries, bigger muscle glycogen storage etc, etc. Everything runs better. I think it works synergistically, just like keto +IF is a great combo. And I think it's a sliding scale. I notice big difference from last fall, when only trained 2-3x/week.

I view not training in FA as missing out. Not necessary, but an additional lifehacking possibility. Bode Miller set a historic alpine record (age) when he got Olympic medal on keto in 2014. He said somewhere that recovery time was reduced. At top levels this is very, very important. It means you can train more than your competitors. It also could mean that an athletes career could be extended!

I suspect the world's #1 ATP single male tennis player, Novak Djokovic, is in FA. Before he changed diet to «gluten free» he ran out of energy. Now he literally blows his competitor off the court, seemingly never running out. I recommend to read his book. He talks about his training and diet, that can inspire anyone, also us amateurs.

KittensMaster

Foamroller wrote: »

wabmester wrote: »

I've found that it's dangerous to disagree with @foamroller, but fat adaptation is somewhat ambiguous. For sedentary people, it may be mostly the effect of lowered insulin, and that happens relatively quickly. This is something the recent Hall study reinforced.

For athletes, it may be something else. Those new mitochondria that are made seem to require a trigger for biogenesis, and that trigger may be oxidative stress -- i.e., specifically pushing the muscles into the anaerobic zone.

So different environments, different stressors, different results, different meanings of "fat adaptation."

Hmm, I didn't know it's dangerous to disagree with me. That has never been my intention. I'm sorry if it has come off that way, cause that's not what I want.

A good discussion is about putting up the best arguments we can find to shed light on a topic. I come from a profession where one gets slaughtered at morning meetings if you present a weak unfounded idea. It's highly competitive, so you gotta be quite source critical, or end up waste a lot of time. I'm a very passionate person, but I think that getting good contra arguments is a good thing. Convince me I'm wrong, but you gotta work for it

Re FA sedentary vs physically active people. FA is in itself very understudied. We all here are sorta pioneers, making our own N=1. I don't think we disagree on this wab. My theory is that training enhances the state of FA. The body loves to be in FA. The body also loves to train, it probably upregulates all vital processes in the body: higher metabolism, more «efficient» (depending on how you see it) better nutrient flow, more capillaries, bigger muscle glycogen storage etc, etc. Everything runs better. I think it works synergistically, just like keto +IF is a great combo. And I think it's a sliding scale. I notice big difference from last fall, when only trained 2-3x/week.

I view not training in FA as missing out. Not necessary, but an additional lifehacking possibility. Bode Miller set a historic alpine record (age) when he got Olympic medal on keto in 2014. He said somewhere that recovery time was reduced. At top levels this is very, very important. It means you can train more than your competitors. It also could mean that an athletes career could be extended!

I suspect the world's #1 ATP single male tennis player, Novak Djokovic, is in FA. Before he changed diet to «gluten free» he ran out of energy. Now he literally blows his competitor off the court, seemingly never running out. I recommend to read his book. He talks about his training and diet, that can inspire anyone, also us amateurs.tying

Getting to carb depletion by eating 20 or less per day, or eating 70 and then an hour of hard cardio, the seemingly same result is reached. On paper

I have done it both ways.

By diet at first, and now by some dietary limits and a cardio blast.

I will say that using and adding muscle seems to provide some extra capacity to metabolize carbs quickly.

I'm still finding the balance. But it is easy to just add some more exercise and see the glycogen go away if I tilt too far.

Low Carb definitely has been the key for me. It will be a lifetime eating strategy.

carimiller7391

Thank you all for the great info. I think (LOL) I am following correctly.

Right now, I can only walk moderately without pain. I have a associate of mine designing a plan for working out that doesn't hurt my back any worse than it is right now. I have seen the inflammation decrease some with the LC I've been doing for the past 3 weeks now. I'm trying VERY hard to avoid surgery on my back. SO, with that said, I know I need to get the weight off and work on making my core stronger. I know that my huge belly isn't helping my lower back pain.

I am most definitely a work in progress.

I plan on printing out this thread to make sure I grasp all the info.

carimiller7391

@knitormiss Also, what about an apple scented/lightly flavored peanut butter fat bomb? Or is it the crunch factor?

--I had 1/2 c of apple no skin yesterday. Made me so ILL, I doubt I will never eat another apple again. I don't think it was the crunch, just the variety.


@2poufs- I appreciate the advice of moving the carbs up/down by 5 every 10 days. Are your carbs net ot total and do you eat veggies/fruits at all?

@greenautumn17-can't do apple peels, they make me gag.

@kittensmaster- I wish I could work out like a maniac, but due to a bulging disc in lower back, walking is the most I can do right now. I'm going to try to get my bike out this weekend... It's low impact, so should not be too bad.

wabmester

@foamroller, it's dangerous to disagree with you because you're usually right.

And you're right that "fat adaptation" is understudied. I've wanted to write up a rough timeline and enumerate the adaptations, but there's very little information or agreement about what actually happens.

The best metric we have of FA is RQ (respiratory quotient) that tells us how much fat we're oxidizing by measuring the ratio of exhaled CO2 to inhaled O2. Kevin Hall, the guy who did the recent controversial low-fat vs low-carb metabolic chamber study, has also measured RQ for longer-term (over 30 days) fasting.

In the fasting case, fat oxidation maxed out in 3 days. In the "low-carb" case, it took about 6 days. His "low-carb" study was at 140g/day. So, maximal "fat burning mode" seems to happen as soon as you burn through the liver's glycogen supply.

But people say it takes something like 4 weeks for fat adaptation and that you feel like crap until that happens.

And that's about how long it takes for the kidneys to adapt to high blood ketone levels. That's how long it takes for uric acid levels to drop back down to normal. So that's probably when the kidneys stop dumping so much ketoacid and sodium. And we all know it's the sodium flux that makes us feel good or bad on this diet.

There's other stuff that happens, too. But by far the most interesting is the increased mitochondrial biogenesis, and that seems to require intense exercise.

KnitOrMiss

carimiller7391 wrote: »

@knitormiss Also, what about an apple scented/lightly flavored peanut butter fat bomb? Or is it the crunch factor?

--I had 1/2 c of apple no skin yesterday. Made me so ILL, I doubt I will never eat another apple again. I don't think it was the crunch, just the variety.


@2poufs- I appreciate the advice of moving the carbs up/down by 5 every 10 days. Are your carbs net ot total and do you eat veggies/fruits at all?

@greenautumn17-can't do apple peels, they make me gag.

@kittensmaster- I wish I could work out like a maniac, but due to a bulging disc in lower back, walking is the most I can do right now. I'm going to try to get my bike out this weekend... It's low impact, so should not be too bad.

Do you have a back support/compression binder? Bike riding is VERY HARD on the lower back without support, and since like me, it sounds like your core is weak, this will likely hurt A LOT... I'd definitely look into some kind of support...

carimiller7391

ugh, no.. no back support.

wabmester

Just be clear, the fat adaptation experienced by athletes is really just a benefit for athletes. It's not a weight loss thing, but it helps conserve glycogen for endurance events, and it may also help with high-altitude exercise.

ki4eld

My carbs are net, as those are the ones I have to work off. The fiber takes care of itself.

FIT_Goat

Karlottap wrote: »

Hey @carimiller7391, playing around with the recipies can add that variety you may feel you are missing. There are too many websites with different LCHF recipies to list, but I recommend finding one, or more, that use the foods you like in different ways. It's not always fun eating the same thing all the time for some of us (we can't all be like Fit_Goat, lol!)and boredom can set in. Look for any new way to cook the food you like in different ways. Hang in there! We all have to adjust things at times!

@Wab and Kitt, interesting discussion regarding the cellular level of fat burning! I am thankful for the educational information you provide that helps us understand how this woe works!

LOL, I saw how you used @ for everyone but me. Trying to sneak that past me, huh?

It's true, though. Few people can be happy with the lack of variety that I find pleasant. I treat my body like a dog when it comes to food. Not in a bad way, I love my dogs very much. I just mean, I prefer to feed my dogs food that is right for them even if it's not very exciting. They rarely get treats and even those aren't really bad for them. For example, I might give them some bacon or steak as a treat but I wouldn't give them chocolate or grapes--which can both be harmful. I treat myself the same way. I might treat myself with some ribeye or a different type of meat. I might even add seasoning. But, the more likely something is to be bad for me, the less likely it makes my treat list.

I am a very boring person.

greenautumn17

Along the same lines, FITGoat, I find that if I stick to the same meals, I stay on the WOL better than if I change up what I eat all the time. The kids might get bored, but that's where they can add in different veggies or sides, LOL! I "usually" have a BPC in the AM or whenever I decide to break a fast, later I have a salad with lots of OO, dinner is a fatty meat sometimes with a vegetable, but mostly just with butter or oil. The less I have to think about food the better!
(My kids are 25, 21, and 14 so they can fend for themselves if they don't like what I make for dinner.)

_Terrapin_

Maybe there are 2 Bode Millers?!?

'Skier Bode Miller won our hearts in the 2002 Olympics in Salt Lake City, and again in the 2010 Olympic Games in Vancouver. But he also won five Olympic medals as well, all while being a strict vegetarian. In fact, Bode Miller has been vegetarian since birth, and is a leading advocate for sustainable organic farming.' Sorry couldn't provide the link but you get the idea.

Then again, maybe at 36 he is using HBOT during training since the portable units have become mainstream for athletes. HBOT(hyper basic oxygen therapy) aids in quicker recovery during training. He may also have resorted to what cyclists do, which is doping(research Armstrong and Landis as examples). While I'm sure as elite athletes age they look for any edge I'm not so sure their diet whether it is keto or vegetarian plays a role other then opportunity. Opportunity equalling endorsements not 'an edge'.

carimiller7391

Maybe if I buy and make more steaks, meats, chicken and have more variety during the week.... would help greatly.