Yet another electrolyte question

gsp90x

Yo ho low carbers!

I've been lchf since about may of this year and with that I actually did the meativore may and have had a loose goal of zero carb ever since. Been doing fairly well though the last few weeks I was starting to get a little squirrelly and added a resonably sized salad maybe 3 to 4 times a week. Still keeping in ketosis.

Kay now that the background is done.

So, I'm not terribly active. Really not. Though I have been in the past and I'm starting back slowly. Basically I walk the dog about 2km a day and I do pushups every 3 to 4 days or so when I get around to it (3 sets of 40). Stop laughing! lol! Ya gotta start somewhere.

During this time I've settled on a 'maintenance' dose of 2 x cal/mag pill once a day to avoid annoying and mildly painful calf cramps at night. The pills I have are: 333mg elemental calcium (carbonate, citgrate, fumarate, malate, succinate) PLUS 167mg Elemental Magnesium (oxide, citrate, fumarate, malate, succinate PLUS 5mcg Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol)

I salt pretty much everything I eat and have gotten to know my signs of "not enough sodium".

Now that you know where I started.

I recently did a 5km obstacle race. My first ever, thank you very much. The first third of the race was basically walking up a ski hill. Hello cardio and sore calves. The second third was of course coming back down and climbing over walls, wading through mud, crawling under cargo nets etc.

But then came the final leg and here enters the foot cramps. Both feet. Those debilitating ones in your toes where one toe sticks up in the air and you can't stand on your foot. It was as though every time I flexed my foot to step forward (while trying to keep from losing my shoe in the mud) it would cramp again. The temporary solution was to not flex my foot. Very impractical and almost impossible to climb walls and fences like that. Not to mention it would be excrutiating when you would have to wade through the icy water at some points.


kay so all that aside.

I didn't find the actual course that difficult physically. As in I didn't feel sweaty (we walked a lot of it) or tired or weak.

although I felt like the weakest link when I had to be rescued from the icy water because I couldn't walk.

I'm looking for suggestions on how to approach these kinds of physical activites given the info above. As I'm losing weight and getting stronger, we would like to do lots more of these things but I HAVE to figure out this cramping thing!!!!

I'm asking for advice because I'm concerned that just upping the cal/mag on that day may give me the trots! Once I forgot I had taken them and took a second dose that day and had "emergency" bathroom trips for 2 days. Not to mention the cramping and everything that goes with it.

Is it usually just the cal/mag that prevents the cramping? I know I can up sodium without bathroom worries. How could I best experiment without having to create a mock race to test out my body on? since then I have done a few other out of the ordinary activity days including Parcour with the Beast. That was MUCH more challenging and I didn't have any cramping.

Could it also have been exacerbated from all the walking up the steep ski hill?

OK. if you've read this far you are hard core and deserve a special thank you.

So ... thank you.

And thank you for any insite and advice.

ps. I mostly subsist on bacon and eggs and "loaded tea" that included coconut oil, butter and eggs.

glossbones

Someone who knows better will probably chime in soon, but I remember reading somewhere that Magnesium and Calcium are best taken at night. What time of day do you dose?

wabmester

My wife suffers from occasional nocturnal calf cramps, so I looked into it a bit.

Studies don't support any connection between muscle cramps and hydration or electrolytes.

In sports, cramps are associated with higher intensity muscle usage and with prior cramps. That's about it.

I haven't seen any sure-fire way to prevent them. Let us know if you figure it out!

DittoDan

I would up the dose.

I used to take Solgar Mag Citrate, twice a day 200mg per pill = 400mg @ day. Then I got a low calcium report from my bloodwork.

So I started taking another pill instead, it was Cal-mag. I'm not using the same one as you, but a similar one.

It said it had more Mag citrate than my Solgar brand. But, I soon started getting cramps and I was very disappointed. So I started to double the cal-mag and that fixed the problem.

Or you could look into just Mag Citrate instead. Not all magnesium is available to the body. Here is a good article on it:
Different Forms of Magnesium

Lastly, you say your taking 2x and it has 167mg. That doesn't sound enough, even if it was pure Mag Citrate. But its a mixture, and I think some of it is not readily available to the body. So, bottom line: you need more Mag, and in a form the body can use.

Magnesium Mistake I Made for 8 Months

I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / Water Fasting / E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program
103 pounds down, 21 to go.

Foamroller

Try Mag glycinate ? I've seen it mentioned as «less bathroom effects» in r/keto. Are you having salt, potassium in right ratios too?

I'm someone who cramps easily. Without straining even. Must up the dosage when training harder. Problem solved

Hope you find something that works for you.

totaloblivia

I use a magnesium oil spray every night. If I forget for more than two or three nights in a row then I get leg cramps. The oil avoids me having to take horse sized pills that make me gag. It really does help to avoid cramps so not sure why studies @wabmester refers to do not support this as most lchfers on here seem to find that it's a direct correlation. I use this type of oil: http://www.betteryou.com/magnesium-oil-original-spray

Would spraying your legs with magnesium oil before a run help? Can't hurt to try.

When I did take an oral supplement I used Solgar's chelated magnesium and never had bathroom issues. I don't take calcium, but do take Solgar 99mg potassium every day as well (it's also quite large).

Hope this resolves itself as foot cramps sound horrible.

bluefish86

gsp90x wrote: »

I recently did a 5km obstacle race. My first ever, thank you very much. The first third of the race was basically walking up a ski hill. Hello cardio and sore calves. The second third was of course coming back down and climbing over walls, wading through mud, crawling under cargo nets etc.

But then came the final leg and here enters the foot cramps. Both feet. Those debilitating ones in your toes where one toe sticks up in the air and you can't stand on your foot. It was as though every time I flexed my foot to step forward (while trying to keep from losing my shoe in the mud) it would cramp again. The temporary solution was to not flex my foot. Very impractical and almost impossible to climb walls and fences like that. Not to mention it would be excrutiating when you would have to wade through the icy water at some points.

Congratulations on your achievement completing your first obstacle course!!!

I sometimes get really bad, spastic cramps in my feet. When I first started going to Yoga, I couldn't do half the poses because I couldn't point my toes without experiencing nasty cramping in both my feet. For me, the solution was more potassium. Avocados are a good source of this. I've also started using pink Himilayan salt (as suggested by my Yoga instructor). It took a few weeks to take effect but it's made a huge difference for me and I hardly ever get that kind of cramping anymore.

KnitOrMiss

I think this was more about using your muscles in ways they aren't used to being used. I have a weird tendon issue where my set point of "relaxed" tendons is more contracted than that point for most people. (Probably at least in part from being a lazy butt...but there is some science thing I don't remember details of.) As such, when I pushed into a HIIT/weight routine (without much research, support, or planning), I developed a severe case of plantar fasciitis that lingered a decade or so (not the least of which complicating factors in healing was my weight). I still get various foot cramps, but I think that any most folks without problems of this nature don't realize that any cramps in the bottom of your feel are related to everything they tie into. That means foot into ankle, ankle into calf, calf into knee, knee into hamstring, hamstring into buttocks, buttocks into back, back into shoulders, shoulders into neck, etc.

So your problem really and truly could be anywhere along the way. My PF was triggered due to my hamstrings over-tightening and pulling my already too tight calves past sanity. The calves shortening put major stress on the tendon that connects to me heel. SO I had to focus on stretching my hams and calves before I could stretch the part that hurt - the heels/feet!!!!

I think that incorporating some regular stretching and flexibility work into your daily routine would help tremendously. I don't know what to recommend, because I still haven't found my sweet spot routine, either. I just do basic floor stretches whenever things start feeling tight.

And I think everyone covered the medical side of it. For me, cramps come from magnesium deficiency. For my fiance, it's a potassium thing. Most folks try to take the two in balance, but I'd recommend testing before figuring out optimum doses. Maybe an electrolyte drink/packet (not gatorade/powerade - those are notoriously low on what we really need) mid way? Or right before?

All of that being said, congrats on completing the obstacle course!!! I know I want to do something like that in the future, but first I have to get past the point of recurrent injuries!

wabmester

totaloblivia wrote: »

It really does help to avoid cramps so not sure why studies @wabmester refers to do not support this as most lchfers on here seem to find that it's a direct correlation.

Yes, a lot of people report relief from increased hydration, magnesium, and potassium. Phinney and Volek recommend supplementing with Slow-Mag (3 times a day for 20 days).

But the studies I've seen tested lots of people with cramps and without cramps and found no differences in terms of hydration levels or electrolyte levels.

This is a good summary:
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2012/0815/p350.html

The exact mechanism is unknown, but the cramps are probably caused by muscle fatigue and nerve dysfunction rather than electrolyte or other abnormalities.

Same thing with sports-induced cramps. They tested the blood of hundreds of runners after marathons and found no correlation with anything except for creatine kinase levels, which are higher when muscle activity is higher.

totaloblivia

@wabmester I hardly ever fatigue my muscles! Maybe the science will catch up with experience one day...