How do you find your Keto happy place?

daylitemag

So, I've been doing the LCHF thing for two weeks now. For the vast majority of those days I have kept my total carbs at or below 25 with net being even lower (see I can learn!). I bought the ketostix and they indicate I am either at, or close to the highest level of ketone output. So, I think I am in Ketosis. I've lost 10LBS which I think was about 6LBS water and the rest presumably fat. Not a huge loss, but a loss nonetheless, and some of my clothes fit a bit better, which is encouraging.

Here is my question. Do you rely on the Ketostix to guide you to know if you are in Ketosis? I'd like to add a very small amount of fruit to my daily routine (i.e. Apple-a-day) as a treat. This will obviously push my carb count above 25, but staying below 50. Can I rely on the Ketostix to help me ensure if I am staying in Ketosis while I find my own natural Carb tolerance? Ultimately, I want to experiment to find out how many daily carbs I can consume and still remain in Ketosis. I'm loving the LCHF WOE but to be sustainable in the long term I do want to be able to eat some carbs.

I am keeping my Calorie count in a deficit so even adding say 100 Calories in fruit won't put me above or even close to my recommended Caloric intake.

Thanks in advance for any advice/guidance.

ki4eld

For me, it's all trial and error. Some things that should bump me out of keto, don't. Other foods that shouldn't be a problem can bump me right on out. I keep testing new foods and recording the results.

lodro

I'd say: first stay in ketosis for a good many weeks, and become keto adapted. If you feel you must have fruit, go for the berries, sparingly. You don't know your ketosis sweet spot yet: one apple might push you out of ketosis, or it might not. Give yourself the time to become well adapted, before you experiment with carbohydrates.

lithezebra

You can get a test kit for testing ketones in your blood if you want more precision than the urine test strips allow. If you are doing low carb for your weight, you measure your portions and track your calories, you should be fine fitting an apple into your diet. Fifty grams is still pretty low.

We always produce some ketones. I get measurable ketones when I'm eating 100 grams of carbs a day, but that wouldn't be enough ketosis if I were trying to control seizures with diet, for example. Ketostix aren't reliable for determining the ketone concentration in your blood. If you're peeing a lot you may not see ketones at all in urine. If you're dehydrated, they may appear very high, even when you're only mildly ketotic.

KnitOrMiss

Okay, the first thing that jumped out at me is your statement that 10 pounds, regardless of composition, is "not a huge loss" for 2 weeks. Are you insane? 1-2 pounds lost in a week, even while on a ketogenic diet are considered highly effective. You are going to severely need to reevaluate your definitions of progress and success or you will never properly succeed on any plan. I'm sorry for seeming a bit intense on this, but if you don't get your expectations properly set now, you're in for a world of hurt going forward. The key to proper ketosis is patience.

Second, MINIMUM 12 weeks to fat adapt before trying to find your carb tolerance. That will convert your system and get you enjoying the proper benefits of ketosis. Flat out.

Third, fruits - berries and stone fruits (peaches, etc.) are recommended, in small doses, and paired with fats. For the most part, I don't know many people who can tolerate even 1/4 of an apple regularly. Perhaps the Granny Smith type, slathered with no-sugar peanut butter... There are some squashes that can be prepared like baked apple, but without the sweetness and just the "flavor." I have also been told that due to the way most folks are wired, generally, the body can handle more carbs in the morning with less effect.

As for the rest, you got some great answers for how to determine ketosis levels. For me, I would go by weight loss. At each Monday (or day you choose), increase your carbs by 5 daily carbs. So if you're using 25 now, next Monday you could increase to 30 carbs, and so forth until you stop losing. Then bump back down 5 carbs to lose again.

That being said, all carbs are not equal for most of us. I could eat four or more times as many carbs from broccoli or asparagus or even tomatoes than from strawberries or whatever and have next to no impact from the veggies whereas the berries would have major impact. So this will take some experimenting. Later.

That being said, this calculator helps determine the ketogenic balance of a meal or day's macros. Might be worth playing with...

http://www.flexibleketogenic.com/

anglyn1

Thanks for the website Knit! I'll keep that for future reference. I think I'm going to stay under 30 for the foreseeable future. Right now my weight is slowly going down which is exciting since the past couple of years I've just been up down the same 5 pounds. So I'm hoping to stay the course until I get to a weight that I think it both healthy and easy to maintain. I am mainly doing this diet for arthritis pain control so after I get to a decent weight I'll experiment with finding my carb threshold.

Sunny_Bunny_

daylitemag wrote: »

So, I've been doing the LCHF thing for two weeks now. For the vast majority of those days I have kept my total carbs at or below 25 with net being even lower (see I can learn!). I bought the ketostix and they indicate I am either at, or close to the highest level of ketone output. So, I think I am in Ketosis. I've lost 10LBS which I think was about 6LBS water and the rest presumably fat. Not a huge loss, but a loss nonetheless, and some of my clothes fit a bit better, which is encouraging.

Here is my question. Do you rely on the Ketostix to guide you to know if you are in Ketosis? I'd like to add a very small amount of fruit to my daily routine (i.e. Apple-a-day) as a treat. This will obviously push my carb count above 25, but staying below 50. Can I rely on the Ketostix to help me ensure if I am staying in Ketosis while I find my own natural Carb tolerance? Ultimately, I want to experiment to find out how many daily carbs I can consume and still remain in Ketosis. I'm loving the LCHF WOE but to be sustainable in the long term I do want to be able to eat some carbs.

I am keeping my Calorie count in a deficit so even adding say 100 Calories in fruit won't put me above or even close to my recommended Caloric intake.

Thanks in advance for any advice/guidance.

Ok, so... I'm a touch worried about your words up there... 10lbs, assuming 4 of actual fat (who knows) is a HUGE loss and you seem to think it's barely worth recognizing. You can't look at that as small beans because you may not see that large of a drop in that time frame again, since we know a lot of it was water. I'm super afraid for how you will handle next week or the week after with only 1 or 2 pounds lost... Or nothing showing on the scale... It happens to us all. But you had real, significant loss those 2 weeks.
Anyway, I definitely encourage you to see it through another 2-4 weeks to get fully adapted and then maybe add 15g carbs max of fruit a day and see if anything changes either with the Keto stick measurements or with your appetite since carbs and the resulting insulin can make you feel hungry.
Other things to note as you try this experiment, some people will test lower on urine strips once adapted, so make it habit of checking every other morning (first urine) just to know how you fluctuate from day to day as the weeks go by. I personally pretty much stay the same even after 6 months. Also, the reading a urine strip gives is about 2 hours behind, so if you eat an apple and want to check if it affected ketones, wait 2 hours before checking. It's also a good idea to keep in mind your water consumption. If you're drinking a bunch of water to the point that you're making more trips to the bathroom, your test will show fewer ketones simply because your urine is diluted.
Another thing to keep in mind to perhaps help make fruit a possibility is the timing of it. I wouldn't eat some right before I'm about to sit down to watch tv... Instead eat it when you can move some and can use up the glucose from it ASAP and therefore, get right back into full ketone production mode. This will also affect your test results at that 2 hour point.
Something else to consider is a typical Honeycrisp Apple like the one I have in my fridge right now is 40g carbs. My apple is 9.3oz. Based on what I could find, a large apple is considered 8oz and mine isn't much bigger than a baseball, so weighing will be very important. And the "verified" MFP entry just says 1apple with no size information at all and a carb count of only 22g, 16 of which is sugar (fructose).
If you ate that whole 40g at once, I would expect a decent insulin response. Avoiding an insulin response is the main idea I think, so I would consider how much you eat at any given time to be very important.
It's certainly possible to work in very small amounts and stay Keto, but it's very challenging and requires very good, strict, portion control. Can you do that?

lithezebra

It's not excessive for a man to lose 2 pounds a week at the beginning of a calorie deficit, which is what 4 pounds in two weeks adds up to. It will likely slow down, and you'll likely regain water. Don't be discouraged.

Sunny_bunny's point about weighing your apple is an important one.

Sunny_Bunny_

lithezebra wrote: »

It's not excessive for a man to lose 2 pounds a week at the beginning of a calorie deficit, which is what 4 pounds in two weeks adds up to. It will likely slow down, and you'll likely regain water. Don't be discouraged.

Sunny_bunny's point about weighing your apple is an important one.

I'm just always so worried about someone becoming discouraged because that's so easy to do. I've definitely felt it at times even though I give myself these little pep talks in my head.

daylitemag

Thanks for the great information. This is exactly what I wanted to get a handle on.

I'm sorry if I came off as sounding like I don't recognize my current weight loss. I do. As I've mentioned in previous posts this "ain't my first time to the rodeo!" LOL. I've literally gained and lost 100s of pounds over the years. Believe me I get that 2lbs per week is good. I guess I was just thinking that perhaps with this WOE I might have seen a more dramatic initial loss. However, I am going to absorb all the great info and advice here, and put it into action. Thanks, again.

Sunny_Bunny_

daylitemag wrote: »

Thanks for the great information. This is exactly what I wanted to get a handle on.

I'm sorry if I came off as sounding like I don't recognize my current weight loss. I do. As I've mentioned in previous posts this "ain't my first time to the rodeo!" LOL. I've literally gained and lost 100s of pounds over the years. Believe me I get that 2lbs per week is good. I guess I was just thinking that perhaps with this WOE I might have seen a more dramatic initial loss. However, I am going to absorb all the great info and advice here, and put it into action. Thanks, again.

I'm glad you recognize it as good progress. I really wanted you to celebrate it. That was a great 2 weeks!

lithezebra

daylitemag wrote: »

Thanks for the great information. This is exactly what I wanted to get a handle on.

I'm sorry if I came off as sounding like I don't recognize my current weight loss. I do. As I've mentioned in previous posts this "ain't my first time to the rodeo!" LOL. I've literally gained and lost 100s of pounds over the years. Believe me I get that 2lbs per week is good. I guess I was just thinking that perhaps with this WOE I might have seen a more dramatic initial loss. However, I am going to absorb all the great info and advice here, and put it into action. Thanks, again.

Permanent, sustainable change is what you're looking for! It's totally worth taking extra time to make your good habits stick and find a way of eating that you can live with.

lithezebra

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

lithezebra wrote: »

It's not excessive for a man to lose 2 pounds a week at the beginning of a calorie deficit, which is what 4 pounds in two weeks adds up to. It will likely slow down, and you'll likely regain water. Don't be discouraged.

Sunny_bunny's point about weighing your apple is an important one.

I'm just always so worried about someone becoming discouraged because that's so easy to do. I've definitely felt it at times even though I give myself these little pep talks in my head.

You've obviously done a great job. Look at your pics!

nicintime

Fruit is a non starter for me - I've got too far to go.

I've done the yo yo dieting and its killing me. I'm 59, and don't have time for another "leisurely " stroll up 50 and then down again. It is simply not worth it.

Maybe a ways down I'll add in my beloved raspberries, but only when I get to where I'm working on maintaining - wherever that is.

Dancing around the edges of how I should eat is what got me to 350 lbs in the first place.

I suspect that the intensity that is heard in some of our comments comes from that place of experience and desperation.

Fighting for a long term perspective. ....

lithezebra

I'm kind of worried about my low fiber intake, which makes me wonder if going lower carb is worth it for me. I made a vegetable and chicken stew, and even without starchy vegetables, it has 17 grams of carbs per serving, which is probably from the tomatoes that make it delicious. I don't need to lose weight, and I don't need to eat fewer vegetables. But I do have other reasons for aspiring to ketogenesis.

daylitemag

It wasn't the apples, carrots, bananas or other fruits that got me to 300LBS. LOL! What I am hoping to achieve this time around is a sustainable WOE that includes all of those healthy things (and yes, maybe even some good quality, whole grain foods, too). My problem is being able to stick with a healthy WOE. As with many others (statistically most others), I can commit to a healthier WOE for a period of time, but invariably I fall back into age old, bad habits. I can't even imagine what my "normal" carb intake might have been. Actually, now that I think of it, I might try doing a "mock" day on MFP just to see what a typical day would be pre-LCHF. I will come back to this thread and post the results. Should be an eye opener!

lodro

I think for me the point about eating this way is that it controls cravings and hunger and gives me tremendous freedom to eat as I see fit, but only if I keep carbohydrates and, by extension, insulin response in check. For me, fruits and grains are not healthy, because I'm insulin resistant. Reading between the lines, I see you associate fruit and grains with "health". I've learned that for me, they're not healthy at all. I did like you, ate low carb, lost the weight, then thought I would be able to add carbohydrates back in, and would end up 10g heavier than when I began eating sensibly. For me, carbs lead to more carbs.

anglyn1

daylitemag wrote: »

It wasn't the apples, carrots, bananas or other fruits that got me to 300LBS. LOL! What I am hoping to achieve this time around is a sustainable WOE that includes all of those healthy things (and yes, maybe even some good quality, whole grain foods, too). My problem is being able to stick with a healthy WOE. As with many others (statistically most others), I can commit to a healthier WOE for a period of time, but invariably I fall back into age old, bad habits. I can't even imagine what my "normal" carb intake might have been. Actually, now that I think of it, I might try doing a "mock" day on MFP just to see what a typical day would be pre-LCHF. I will come back to this thread and post the results. Should be an eye opener!

All you can do is try it and see. Is there a reason you want to be on a ketogenic diet? It sounds like the ideal diet you describe above is more paleo or perhaps "clean eating" and not really compatible with ketosis for most people.

daylitemag

Ok. Just for fun I tried entering a typical day before LCHF and the totals are:

Cal: 3220
Carbs: 335

I didn't take a lot of time to try and search the food database to verify each item, but I think this is more or less accurate. In my calculation I included six cans of Guinness, two slices of pizza, a small bag of chips. The dinner I entered was actually quite healthy but could easily have been much, much worse. Plus I didn't enter any sweets, which on any given day could make an appearance.

Yesterday, my calorie count was below 1200 and my net carbs were below 25. Quite a big difference.

KnitOrMiss

anglyn1 wrote: »

daylitemag wrote: »

It wasn't the apples, carrots, bananas or other fruits that got me to 300LBS. LOL! What I am hoping to achieve this time around is a sustainable WOE that includes all of those healthy things (and yes, maybe even some good quality, whole grain foods, too). My problem is being able to stick with a healthy WOE. As with many others (statistically most others), I can commit to a healthier WOE for a period of time, but invariably I fall back into age old, bad habits. I can't even imagine what my "normal" carb intake might have been. Actually, now that I think of it, I might try doing a "mock" day on MFP just to see what a typical day would be pre-LCHF. I will come back to this thread and post the results. Should be an eye opener!

All you can do is try it and see. Is there a reason you want to be on a ketogenic diet? It sounds like the ideal diet you describe above is more paleo or perhaps "clean eating" and not really compatible with ketosis for most people.

Or Whole30...

KnitOrMiss

daylitemag wrote: »

Ok. Just for fun I tried entering a typical day before LCHF and the totals are:

Cal: 3220
Carbs: 335

I didn't take a lot of time to try and search the food database to verify each item, but I think this is more or less accurate. In my calculation I included six cans of Guinness, two slices of pizza, a small bag of chips. The dinner I entered was actually quite healthy but could easily have been much, much worse. Plus I didn't enter any sweets, which on any given day could make an appearance.

Yesterday, my calorie count was below 1200 and my net carbs were below 25. Quite a big difference.

Anything under 100 grams of carbs a day (several folks here follow that range of plan) is considered low carb. If done properly, some people enjoy the low carb benefits up to 150 grams of carbs daily, but it has be mostly veggie carbs and such...

But this level is LCHFMP, not Keto. Keto typically caps out around 50 grams of carbs daily...YMMV

daylitemag

anglyn1 wrote: »

daylitemag wrote: »

It wasn't the apples, carrots, bananas or other fruits that got me to 300LBS. LOL! What I am hoping to achieve this time around is a sustainable WOE that includes all of those healthy things (and yes, maybe even some good quality, whole grain foods, too). My problem is being able to stick with a healthy WOE. As with many others (statistically most others), I can commit to a healthier WOE for a period of time, but invariably I fall back into age old, bad habits. I can't even imagine what my "normal" carb intake might have been. Actually, now that I think of it, I might try doing a "mock" day on MFP just to see what a typical day would be pre-LCHF. I will come back to this thread and post the results. Should be an eye opener!

All you can do is try it and see. Is there a reason you want to be on a ketogenic diet? It sounds like the ideal diet you describe above is more paleo or perhaps "clean eating" and not really compatible with ketosis for most people.

I actually never really though about that. I have a good friend who swears by Ketogenic and I guess that's what got me interested. I also like the relative simplicity. I've always been a "meat guy" and so that also works for me. I started this thread by talking about fruit, but the reality is that I've never eaten a lot of fruit or vegetables. I literally cannot stand eating vegetables, but I don't mind fruit. With that said, I can easily go without eating either for long stretches of time. However, I WANT to change my evil ways, and this seems like a good option for me and hopefully something I can embrace, long term. For me there will always be foods that I have to avoid eating entirely, but as I'm sure people here know, it isn't always easy to "just say no."

Sunny_Bunny_

daylitemag wrote: »

It wasn't the apples, carrots, bananas or other fruits that got me to 300LBS. LOL! What I am hoping to achieve this time around is a sustainable WOE that includes all of those healthy things (and yes, maybe even some good quality, whole grain foods, too). My problem is being able to stick with a healthy WOE. As with many others (statistically most others), I can commit to a healthier WOE for a period of time, but invariably I fall back into age old, bad habits. I can't even imagine what my "normal" carb intake might have been. Actually, now that I think of it, I might try doing a "mock" day on MFP just to see what a typical day would be pre-LCHF. I will come back to this thread and post the results. Should be an eye opener!

To be honest, I thought your desire to add fruit was maybe coming from a carb withdrawal, need for something sweet that you might be experiencing.
If you're wanting to add fruit and whole grains because you think they are healthy, I'd suggest digging a little deeper. I will avoid all grains of any kind for ever because they are just not good for us. And I may have had a small baking type apple on a trip to a farm this fall but I did it knowing it was a fructose laden sweet treat. Kinda like the way I used to think of candy. Well, how a person who knows how to eat in moderation would have thought of candy. As something that won't be a problem in a small amount once in a while, but it's not necessarily good for a daily diet.

KnitOrMiss

daylitemag wrote: »

anglyn1 wrote: »

daylitemag wrote: »

It wasn't the apples, carrots, bananas or other fruits that got me to 300LBS. LOL! What I am hoping to achieve this time around is a sustainable WOE that includes all of those healthy things (and yes, maybe even some good quality, whole grain foods, too). My problem is being able to stick with a healthy WOE. As with many others (statistically most others), I can commit to a healthier WOE for a period of time, but invariably I fall back into age old, bad habits. I can't even imagine what my "normal" carb intake might have been. Actually, now that I think of it, I might try doing a "mock" day on MFP just to see what a typical day would be pre-LCHF. I will come back to this thread and post the results. Should be an eye opener!

All you can do is try it and see. Is there a reason you want to be on a ketogenic diet? It sounds like the ideal diet you describe above is more paleo or perhaps "clean eating" and not really compatible with ketosis for most people.

I actually never really though about that. I have a good friend who swears by Ketogenic and I guess that's what got me interested. I also like the relative simplicity. I've always been a "meat guy" and so that also works for me. I started this thread by talking about fruit, but the reality is that I've never eaten a lot of fruit or vegetables. I literally cannot stand eating vegetables, but I don't mind fruit. With that said, I can easily go without eating either for long stretches of time. However, I WANT to change my evil ways, and this seems like a good option for me and hopefully something I can embrace, long term. For me there will always be foods that I have to avoid eating entirely, but as I'm sure people here know, it isn't always easy to "just say no."

Sincerely, you might investigate zero-carb eating - which is no fruits/no veggies. It has some amazing health benefits, too... @FIT_Goat and a few others here follow that plan. The calories tend to be more self-regulating and "simple." I personally don't think I would want to do it, but I might someday....lol.

daylitemag

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

daylitemag wrote: »

It wasn't the apples, carrots, bananas or other fruits that got me to 300LBS. LOL! What I am hoping to achieve this time around is a sustainable WOE that includes all of those healthy things (and yes, maybe even some good quality, whole grain foods, too). My problem is being able to stick with a healthy WOE. As with many others (statistically most others), I can commit to a healthier WOE for a period of time, but invariably I fall back into age old, bad habits. I can't even imagine what my "normal" carb intake might have been. Actually, now that I think of it, I might try doing a "mock" day on MFP just to see what a typical day would be pre-LCHF. I will come back to this thread and post the results. Should be an eye opener!

To be honest, I thought your desire to add fruit was maybe coming from a carb withdrawal, need for something sweet that you might be experiencing.
If you're wanting to add fruit and whole grains because you think they are healthy, I'd suggest digging a little deeper. I will avoid all grains of any kind for ever because they are just not good for us. And I may have had a small baking type apple on a trip to a farm this fall but I did it knowing it was a fructose laden sweet treat. Kinda like the way I used to think of candy. Well, how a person who knows how to eat in moderation would have thought of candy. As something that won't be a problem in a small amount once in a while, but it's not necessarily good for a daily diet.

That's really what I was getting at. I'd like one day to be able to have a piece of fruit, or whatever as a treat.

Sunny_Bunny_

daylitemag wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

daylitemag wrote: »

It wasn't the apples, carrots, bananas or other fruits that got me to 300LBS. LOL! What I am hoping to achieve this time around is a sustainable WOE that includes all of those healthy things (and yes, maybe even some good quality, whole grain foods, too). My problem is being able to stick with a healthy WOE. As with many others (statistically most others), I can commit to a healthier WOE for a period of time, but invariably I fall back into age old, bad habits. I can't even imagine what my "normal" carb intake might have been. Actually, now that I think of it, I might try doing a "mock" day on MFP just to see what a typical day would be pre-LCHF. I will come back to this thread and post the results. Should be an eye opener!

To be honest, I thought your desire to add fruit was maybe coming from a carb withdrawal, need for something sweet that you might be experiencing.
If you're wanting to add fruit and whole grains because you think they are healthy, I'd suggest digging a little deeper. I will avoid all grains of any kind for ever because they are just not good for us. And I may have had a small baking type apple on a trip to a farm this fall but I did it knowing it was a fructose laden sweet treat. Kinda like the way I used to think of candy. Well, how a person who knows how to eat in moderation would have thought of candy. As something that won't be a problem in a small amount once in a while, but it's not necessarily good for a daily diet.

That's really what I was getting at. I'd like one day to be able to have a piece of fruit, or whatever as a treat.

Then I think you have the right idea
Cuz frute iz bad. Lol