Help me explain LCHF to a MFP friend

Sunny_Bunny_

I have a friend on here that has posted about how they don't understand how others are able to have such low calories, because though they try so hard, they struggle every day trying to stick to goal.
I have tried to give some subtle ideas before and I don't want to be pushy. We all know we have to find this on our own.
So I wonder, if there was just one link to share with someone that you know by looking at their journal, clearly has a sugar addiction, has PCOS and upon my previously asking if they had ever considered going low carb, mentioned they were supposed to be doing that, so I'm assuming a doctor has mentioned it at some point and has probably 150+ pounds to lose, with only 10 lost over the past 8+ months (I think)
If there was only one chance to share a link with the hopes of helping this person "see the low carb light" and finally find a successful and sustainable road to health, what would you share with them?

GaleHawkins

Some of the Dr. Peter Attia site info was what helped my understanding in the beginning.

15 months later (today) reading in Volek's book how it worked finally started coming more clear to me.

90 days was required for me to get clean from the sugars and grains but it may be an age related factor.

It is good you are helping this person.

noclady1995

Ditto on Peter Attia. I'm new to low carb and his blog isn't just a rehash of all other sites that explain keto. It's helping me to understand the actual science behind it, as well as it coming from an MD who also eats this way.

Sunny_Bunny_

She seems interested in learning more. Said she has had interest in trying it before but got overwhelmed with info available online. I will send link to Attia's page.
Maybe I should invite her to group to learn from us???
I can tell she's wanting to succeed so much. Been logging for nearly 200 days. But the diet is 300+ grams daily with less than 20g fiber on average so you know sugar has a tight hold on her.

auntstephie321

Definitely invite her here. She can lurk and learn and find something that works for her. It can be very overwhelming in the beginning and is such a huge change in mindset. I'm sure seeing so many on here who have had success would be great motivation.

Sunny_Bunny_

I gave the link. I hope this really helps her find an easier way. She's clearly been trying.

ladipoet

tsazani wrote: »

Invite her to this group. I've learned a ton from being here.

I agree with the good Doctor on this one Sunny! I hope your friend is interested enough to keep an open mind.

nicintime

I am not diabetic, but I found Dr Sarah Hallberg's Ted Talk to be clear, interesting and hugely relevant because of the obesity connection. It is the first video I show a friend who is interested.

And it's 17 minutes long. :-)

camtosh

Also the Fat Head movie on youtube.... the link is in our Launchpad, I think, which is also a good place to start reading!

KnitOrMiss

I'm in this group:

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/group/3070-p-c-o-sis

In fact, it was that group that lead me to this one. @Dragonwolf and @Alliwan were a big part of educating me to take charge for myself as far as treating my Insulin Resistance and my PCOS. My PCP had been nagging me for what seems like FOREVER to lower my carbs some to help with my cholesterol (I was a carb junkie of the worst degree). It took fighting to treat my PCOS that lead me to find a new endocrinologist which lead to my diagnosis of insulin resistance which FINALLY lead me here to start taking charge...

I think helping her look for her underlying motivations - getting away from the overwhelming big picture - and focusing on the tiny aspects of what she wants...what is her biggest goal? Her first goal? Figuring out where her motivation lies will help get her on the right path to where she can take off running into the huge pile of research and jump into it a like a leaf pile.

anglyn1

I agree the Fathead movie is a great starting point!

wabmester

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

I have a friend on here that has posted about how they don't understand how others are able to have such low calories, because though they try so hard, they struggle every day trying to stick to goal.

All of the books and movies seem to miss the central point -- the one about appetite and cravings. Maybe it's because the mechanisms are poorly understood.

So I would let her know that it's still a well-kept Secret. The struggle is real for those people. Your body will fight you if you try to restrict calories using willpower.

Our Secret is that we've found a way to reduce calories without willpower. We've discovered that if you eliminate certain foods that have an almost-drug-like effect on you, your calorie intake naturally drops, and the fat just melts away.

So if she has tried other approaches and is frustrated, I would frame it as "why not try this for 30 days."

Now you know that I believe it can work with higher carb intake, but restricting to something like 20g carbs will ensure that she dumps all of the drug-foods. So tell her to simply restrict to 20g carbs, no artificial sweeteners, and double her sodium intake for 30 days and then let you know if The Secret worked for her.

sweetteadrinker2

wabmester wrote: »

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

I have a friend on here that has posted about how they don't understand how others are able to have such low calories, because though they try so hard, they struggle every day trying to stick to goal.

All of the books and movies seem to miss the central point -- the one about appetite and cravings. Maybe it's because the mechanisms are poorly understood.

So I would let her know that it's still a well-kept Secret. The struggle is real for those people. Your body will fight you if you try to restrict calories using willpower.

Our Secret is that we've found a way to reduce calories without willpower. We've discovered that if you eliminate certain foods that have an almost-drug-like effect on you, your calorie intake naturally drops, and the fat just melts away.

So if she has tried other approaches and is frustrated, I would frame it as "why not try this for 30 days."

Now you know that I believe it can work with higher carb intake, but restricting to something like 20g carbs will ensure that she dumps all of the drug-foods. So tell her to simply restrict to 20g carbs, no artificial sweeteners, and double her sodium intake for 30 days and then let you know if The Secret worked for her.

Definitely invite her here, I don't know if telling her to jump from 300+ to 20 is so great though. Depends on her personality, but she may do herself well to step down slowly.

baconslave

I generally give people the link to the Diet Doctor site -the beginner's section. It very simply illustrates what kinds of foods LCHFers eat and do not eat.

Sunny_Bunny_

She said she joined the group. I think getting started is the big job at hand for her now with grocery shopping and figuring out what to eat the next few days.
I did stress that calories are unimportant this first week for sure because carb withdrawal is gonna stink! I hope she peeks her head in soon so she can feel the support from such a great group of people. I know it's hard to get started and just figuring out what the next meal is gonna be can seem overwhelming.

KETOGENICGURL

Sunny.. I always refer people to just READ the 18 good tips for beginners on www.dietdoctor.com I go back to it myself on occasion, when I need to reconfirm the delight of high % of fats..it is comforting to see YES you can and should have 70-80% fats..every day..horray.

and the MAIN reason is said by others: NEVER HUNGRY, or plotting and planning what you CAN eat..like a "prisoner "starving on 1200 skinny low fat calories a day….those same calories with 75% as fats is soooo satisfying.

NOT thinking about food, or the next meal's 'limits', or what is 'allowed' like Low Fat, is worth all of it!

Dragonwolf

The Primal Blueprint is what got me started. It does talk about the sugar-insulin roller coaster.

neohdiver

Let me inject a counter opinion here. I have lost ~60 pounds on a typically proportioned diet, without counting calories and without cravings* (and without feeling hungry. I have also lost 40+ lbs doing strictly CICO (without worrying about calorie content), also without cravings* and without feeling hungry. I maintained it better on the former - sticking at my maintenance weight for several years. My eating is driven by emotion, exhaustion, and habit. My life is extremely stressful. I'm the sole breadwinner in a family with (now) three people with expensive chronic illnesses (who depend on my job for health insurance) - one of whom is suicidal, off and on. I love my job, but there is far too much of it. I typically work 60 hour weeks, with the exception of January through May, when I work 80 hour weeks. It has been that way since 2008 - and when life happens, the first thing to go are my good eating habits.

The *: Sugar and, to a lesser extent fat, are the only things that create cravings for me. Carbs don't. As long as I omit sugar and most fats from my diet, I don't have cravings. So the low carb, moderate protein (as I prefer to call it) creates craving because the bulk of the calories I remove by cutting carbs have to be made up by adding fat (not protein). So I would hesitate to guarantee that this diet is a magic cure-all for hunger and cravings. I am eating this way because I want to keep from committing slow suicide by eating carbs. I have to test very carefully to see if I can find which fats are most likely to trigger my cravings. Bacon was not fun a couple of days ago. I chased it with a couple of tablespoons of sunbutter, then a couple more. Sunbutter doesn't cause cravings - but it also didn't turn off the cravings the bacon triggered.

As to the diet - set a target carb value, target protein level (based on lean body mass) then add whatever you need from high (good) fat foods to complete your target calories for the day. If that satiates you - great. If you're like me, though, you'll need to pay attention to how your body reacts to each thing you are eating. It helped me tremendously to already know that fat was likely to create cravings - so I have been slowly testing high fat foods to see what triggers the cravings so (as I strictly limit carbs, I also eliminate any fatty foods that cause cravings).

Sunny_Bunny_

neohdiver wrote: »

Let me inject a counter opinion here. I have lost ~60 pounds on a typically proportioned diet, without counting calories and without cravings* (and without feeling hungry. I have also lost 40+ lbs doing strictly CICO (without worrying about calorie content), also without cravings* and without feeling hungry. I maintained it better on the former - sticking at my maintenance weight for several years. My eating is driven by emotion, exhaustion, and habit. My life is extremely stressful. I'm the sole breadwinner in a family with (now) three people with expensive chronic illnesses (who depend on my job for health insurance) - one of whom is suicidal, off and on. I love my job, but there is far too much of it. I typically work 60 hour weeks, with the exception of January through May, when I work 80 hour weeks. It has been that way since 2008 - and when life happens, the first thing to go are my good eating habits.

The *: Sugar and, to a lesser extent fat, are the only things that create cravings for me. Carbs don't. As long as I omit sugar and most fats from my diet, I don't have cravings. So the low carb, moderate protein (as I prefer to call it) creates craving because the bulk of the calories I remove by cutting carbs have to be made up by adding fat (not protein). So I would hesitate to guarantee that this diet is a magic cure-all for hunger and cravings. I am eating this way because I want to keep from committing slow suicide by eating carbs. I have to test very carefully to see if I can find which fats are most likely to trigger my cravings. Bacon was not fun a couple of days ago. I chased it with a couple of tablespoons of sunbutter, then a couple more. Sunbutter doesn't cause cravings - but it also didn't turn off the cravings the bacon triggered.

As to the diet - set a target carb value, target protein level (based on lean body mass) then add whatever you need from high (good) fat foods to complete your target calories for the day. If that satiates you - great. If you're like me, though, you'll need to pay attention to how your body reacts to each thing you are eating. It helped me tremendously to already know that fat was likely to create cravings - so I have been slowly testing high fat foods to see what triggers the cravings so (as I strictly limit carbs, I also eliminate any fatty foods that cause cravings).

When people refer to carbs causing cravings, particularly in someone like I have mentioned is Insulin Resistant, it is not a shot in the dark to guess that reducing them will help reduce cravings and hunger when replaced with fat. It's not a guess that it might work. It's more like, to what extent will it work?
Everyone obviously knows it's not magic but you'll certainly hear people that finally found a way to get control of their out of control sugar/carb binges singing its praises as if it were actual magic, because when it works, which it does more often than not, when done properly, it sure as hell feels like magic!
Maybe you don't know how insulin and insulin resistance work? The hunger is a hormonal response that is not emotional in any way. Emotions are their own battle when it comes to food.
Even non insulin resistant people get hungrier with an insulin response. My Type 1 daughter will be kinda hungry and ready for dinner, then take her insulin injection when almost ready to eat, and almost immediately be starving! And if she waits to take the shot right after eating, she will often suddenly want more food even if she was just full.
Insulin resistance and T2D is a problem where too much insulin is being produced. Too much of a hormone that stores fat and makes us hungry is a recipe for out of control obesity, most certainly leading to much more suffering.
Fat provides a steady, non glucose energy that burns slowly and sticks with you. I don't have a clue why it doesn't work for you. I don't recall any posts where you've talked about it. Maybe I missed them? I do know there's a whole lot of other great choices for good high fat foods besides bacon and I'm sure there's a perfect balance for you.

neohdiver

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

When people refer to carbs causing cravings, particularly in someone like I have mentioned is Insulin Resistant, it is not a shot in the dark to guess that reducing them will help reduce cravings and hunger when replaced with fat. It's not a guess that it might work. It's more like, to what extent will it work?
Everyone obviously knows it's not magic but you'll certainly hear people that finally found a way to get control of their out of control sugar/carb binges singing its praises as if it were actual magic, because when it works, which it does more often than not, when done properly, it sure as hell feels like magic!
Maybe you don't know how insulin and insulin resistance work? The hunger is a hormonal response that is not emotional in any way. Emotions are their own battle when it comes to food.
Even non insulin resistant people get hungrier with an insulin response. My Type 1 daughter will be kinda hungry and ready for dinner, then take her insulin injection when almost ready to eat, and almost immediately be starving! And if she waits to take the shot right after eating, she will often suddenly want more food even if she was just full.
Insulin resistance and T2D is a problem where too much insulin is being produced. Too much of a hormone that stores fat and makes us hungry is a recipe for out of control obesity, most certainly leading to much more suffering.
Fat provides a steady, non glucose energy that burns slowly and sticks with you. I don't have a clue why it doesn't work for you. I don't recall any posts where you've talked about it. Maybe I missed them? I do know there's a whole lot of other great choices for good high fat foods besides bacon and I'm sure there's a perfect balance for you.

Please don't discount my personal experience. I have lost (collectively) close to 150 pounds and have maintained the weight loss (collectively) for more than a decade. When my weight has gone back up is when the stress in my life reaches a breaking point and I shift into survival mode - and that means doing what is efficient, meets my emotional needs, but is not necessarily healthy. I do not experience hunger, nor do I have cravings when I eat a calorie deficit, traditionally balanced diet that eliminates all added sugar and most fats, but includes the traditional amount of good quality carbs. I know very well what causes my cravings, and what doesn't, and whether I experience hunger or not. That self-knowledge is what has allowed me to very easily shed from 30-60 lbs, during the few times in my adult life that have been stress-free enough that I can devote the attention to it - rather than just grabbing whatever is convenient when I head home at 2 AM, or hitting the pizza buffet when I manage to head home early because I love the taste of barbecue pizza and it gives me a brief break during which no one (work or home) is making demands on me.

It is not a matter of not knowing how insulin resistance works. I am insulin resistant, and I am telling you what I actually experience - not the theory of how it is supposed to work. I doubt that I'm any kind of special snowflake for whom a moderate amount of high quality carbs is one of the things that keeps my cravings away - and fat is one of the things that trigger them.

I don't disagree that others have a different experience - your daughter's experience is not mine. Nor is my experience your daughter's. That does not invalidate either experience.

Low Carb, Moderate Protein will be a struggle for me long term - because I can't have the carbs that stave off cravings and I have to eat fats that cause them in order to consume the calories my body needs. For me it will be a matter of figuring out which ones I can eat that trigger the most manageable cravings - and how to cope with the cravings I can't stave off with a good multi-grain roll.

(You haven't seen posts on this issue for me, since I have just been forced into a low carb diet. My knowledge about when I experience hunger and cravings is based on 30 years and at least three large weight losses, and 3 extended maintenance periods. Refining the cravings caused by fat is new to me, since - in the past - I have addressed the cravings by eliminating most fat from my diet. Problem solved. Can't do that this time, since substituting protein for carbs is not healthy - at least for someone with diabetes. So I have to tinker, and I am in the process of refining which fats cause the least cravings. So far cheese & nut butters seem ok. Bacon, not so much. Can't stand avocados. Full fat, or fat added yogurt, fixed the way I like it, has too many carbs (and I'm not fond of the taste of the full or added fat - but I'm working on other alternatives.)

wabmester

I specifically didn't mention insulin because the appetite suppression mechanism isn't really understood, AFAIK, and it does apply to other types of diets as well. There are many people who find the same success with "paleo," for example.

But restricting to 20g guarantees ketosis, and there is a known reduction in grhelin (a hunger hormone) associated with ketosis. So go for the Sure Thing and then add other foods to see if you can keep it going.