How does this WOE work with those who are already fit?

AshleyC1023

My husband is really interested in this. He's fit, almost 46, 5 ft 6 and 140 lbs. He's also in the Army so exercise is not optional, it's mandatory. He's, at most, 13% body fat. However, he has this bad body image that he's fat and he's not.
His goals are to put on some muscle. I guess he's never been able to put it on, despite his efforts. He has lots of lean muscle, but I think he'd like to be ripped.

On the flip side of this, he's feeling sorry for me with a "diet", no matter how much I explain that I'm not suffering in the least. Low fat diets are suffering and miserable, and he's seen that and doesn't really believe me when I say this is totally different.

So, if he decides to go along with my WOE (I doubt he won't, we are both avid meat eaters and hunters), what kind of changes do we need to make to accommodate him? He really needs to retain muscle mass and strength for his job in the military. I'm honestly not suggesting it to him, and told him he should eat the same thing that the kids do (which is that I still make rice pilaf, potatoes, fries, etc and I just don't eat them) because he burns this off easily. He does have some legitimate concerns for his health, as heart disease and diabetes runs in his family.

Any ideas?

tlflag1620

My husband is also military. I modify his diet (maybe wrong way to phrase it - he eats what he wants, lol, but since I do the majority of the cooking and shopping I heavily influence his eating habits) the same way I do with our kids - they get more starchy veggies, rice, and fruit than I consume, and they get to indulge in treats more often, but otherwise we eat the same things. LCHF is muscle sparing (plenty of protein) but being very active means he will be able to tolerate higher amounts of carbs. I'd still avoid most grains (wheat can be especially nasty, but many people tolerate rice and oats just fine), industrial oils (stick with butter, coconut or palm oil, real lard if you can get it, and quality olive oil), and sugar in all its various forms, but your husband wil have more leeway when it comes to carbs, especially since he is already a healthy weight.

I didn't have my husband (or kids) go on my "diet" with me, but I made changes for the whole household and he has benefitted as well. For example - I only buy whole milk, no more skim; I switched us from flavored coffee creamer to half and half; I cook with coconut or Palm oil rather than canola; I buy and serve fattier cuts of meat for dinner (think chicken thighs rather than boneless, skinless breasts, chuck roast rather than sirloin, pork butt rather than pork loin, etc); I always serve plenty of fibrous veggies with lots of butter and much smaller amounts of rice or potatoes than I used to make; I keep almonds, cashews, lots of different cheeses (full fat), and hard boiled eggs, berries and full fat Greek yogurt on hand for snacks; I do buy "junk food" for him and the kids from time to time, and yes we still make cookies and things like that, but it is much less often and more reasonable portions (I tell them to make it last because once it's gone, it's gone; I won't buy more for a while). I had made a lot of these changes while he was TDY for a couple weeks and his reaction to coming home to bacon and eggs for breakfast and ribeye steaks for dinner was priceless. Even more priceless a few weeks later when I had dropped twelve lbs eating that way . As for him, he maintained his weight, but his waist size went down and he started looking more muscular, so I'd say it benefitted his body composition too, and he didn't change his activity level in the mean time.

wabmester

It's a low-insulin diet, and insulin is an anabolic hormone, so perhaps not the best for adding muscle mass. But it's pretty good for the combination of losing fat and maintaining muscle since it's protein sparing.

Leangains (IF) and ketogains (keto) are popular sites for guys who want to (try to) add muscle without gaining a lot of weight.

There are other benefits, but if he's already thin, he may find the reduced appetite to be a problem.

AshleyC1023

Tlflag - thanks for the insight. I did very much the same thing. He went to JRTC, I changed how I ate. I've lost more in the last week and a half than I did on the low fat diet hell in 3 months (I went back and checked my food logs and I am ashamed, even though I was under my calories, lol). There should be quite a shock when he gets home that I've lost almost 10 lbs, and it's still a couple of weeks before he'll be home. I think if his waist size went down he'd be pleased, he has been rather disappointed since his size 28 waist jeans got a bit tight. He's still in small short ACU's though.

wab - That's a curiosity I had too. He's no stranger to "fasting". When they are in the field, which is a lot, he won't eat for days because he refuses to eat MREs. You'd think after 24 years of this he'd have some tolerance, but nope. He'll just not eat as opposed to eating a MRE, until he's too hungry to care anymore, and even then he just picks out the stuff he likes like the cheese spread (can't blame him there, it's good, lol). So I usually shop before he's going to be gone for a couple of weeks and stock his pack up with tuna, jerky, stuff that won't go bad without refrigeration. Perhaps if he sees more muscle definition, it may deter him from wanting to add more muscle.

Some of it won't be a shock. I've always cooked with olive oil, lard, and butter. I use cast iron pans so I save bacon grease to season them with after washing them and cooked with it - I grew up with my very southern grandmother and that's how I know to cook - actually I was never the least bit over weight when I lived with her and she's a whopping 112 lbs at 84 years old. He used to joke that me and Paula Deen lived off of butter - can't wait until he sees bulletproof coffee, haha.

Sunny_Bunny_

He could just cut out sugar and grains but allow more vegetable, nut, legume carbs and have a little more fruit options. That would likely bring him well under 150g carbs. He would easily burn through the extra carbs but should benefit from not having the grains and also not get wiped out during the physical activity that way.

glossbones

He might find he eats more during the day. This "WOE" doesn't mean input restriction. If you're healthy, you eat to sustain your health. He may find better endurance (after initial adaptation) as he will be protected from blood sugar spikes as a result of regulating his insulin better. I don't think there's anyone who can't benefit from this way of eating, even if they're fit - there are fixes that the body will initiate when it runs more efficiently (on ketones).

I do know someone who has trouble maintaining his weight when he tries to go low carb, but it's my opinion he doesn't eat enough fat, and gets too much protein. We tease him that his tapeworm is starving to death.

deksgrl

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

He could just cut out sugar and grains but allow more vegetable, nut, legume carbs and have a little more fruit options. That would likely bring him well under 150g carbs. He would easily burn through the extra carbs but should benefit from not having the grains and also not get wiped out during the physical activity that way.

^^ This.

AshleyC1023

glossbones wrote: »

He might find he eats more during the day. This "WOE" doesn't mean input restriction. If you're healthy, you eat to sustain your health. He may find better endurance (after initial adaptation) as he will be protected from blood sugar spikes as a result of regulating his insulin better. I don't think there's anyone who can't benefit from this way of eating, even if they're fit - there are fixes that the body will initiate when it runs more efficiently (on ketones).

I do know someone who has trouble maintaining his weight when he tries to go low carb, but it's my opinion he doesn't eat enough fat, and gets too much protein. We tease him that his tapeworm is starving to death.

Marvin and Melvin. That's what we named my mom's "tapeworms". She's one of those people who can eat and eat and not gain, so when she binges, I tell her she's feeding Marvin and Melvin.

That's my only concern is that he'll have some issues with maintaining [a healthy] weight. He's not someone who enjoys eating, and it's not unusual for him to pretty much fast all day and then just eat dinner. He does have a Mountain Dew/Monster addiction though - and I don't use "addiction" lightly, he downs between 4-6 of either of those a day. So maybe he will if he swaps some of that with food since the sugar and carb content of those is pretty high. That would actually be a lot more budget friendly, lol.

ladipoet

AshleyC1023 wrote: »

He does have a Mountain Dew/Monster addiction though - and I don't use "addiction" lightly, he downs between 4-6 of either of those a day.

WOAH...that's a serious addiction!! I bet if he just cuts out the Mountain Dew he'd see some improvement from eliminating all those empty carbs / sugars!

Dragonwolf

wabmester wrote: »

It's a low-insulin diet, and insulin is an anabolic hormone, so perhaps not the best for adding muscle mass. But it's pretty good for the combination of losing fat and maintaining muscle since it's protein sparing.

Leangains (IF) and ketogains (keto) are popular sites for guys who want to (try to) add muscle without gaining a lot of weight.

There are other benefits, but if he's already thin, he may find the reduced appetite to be a problem.

The ketogains site you linked contradicts what you say about adding muscle mass.

Reader's Digest version of the Ketogains info -- the amount of protein is sufficient for diet-induced insulin increases, and the testosterone and GH increases from the exercises themselves are sufficient to put on muscle mass.

ladipoet wrote: »

AshleyC1023 wrote: »

He does have a Mountain Dew/Monster addiction though - and I don't use "addiction" lightly, he downs between 4-6 of either of those a day.

WOAH...that's a serious addiction!! I bet if he just cuts out the Mountain Dew he'd see some improvement from eliminating all those empty carbs / sugars!

Agreed! Wow!

OP -- what do his workouts look like? Does he lift or have some kind of strength training routine, or is it all cardio? If it's all cardio, switching some of it to strength training and just ditching the obvious sources of sugar/calories (ie - the Mountain Dew) will probably be sufficient for him to achieve his goals.

AshleyC1023

It's pretty much all cardio. Push ups, sit ups, 2 mile run, and just about anything listed here: http://www.goarmy.com/content/dam/goarmy/downloaded_assets/pt_guide/pocket-pt-guide.pdf

Sometimes they go to the gym, sometimes they march with all their gear on for 5-10 miles. It really varies. Unless it's the run or a ruck march, he never even comes home sweaty from it. He doesn't generally do a lot of heavy lifting because he's in a supervisory position (senior non commissioned officer), so the rest of the day he spends at a desk - drinking Monsters, lol.

KarlaYP

Imo: the side effects alone from the carbs (cardio or not) from empty calories isn't worth it!. Keto would be a life saver for him (even if he seems "fit") at this point! It's time for reading "Keto Clarity", and " Grain Brain" these books have been life changing for me and would fit into even the fittest of lifestyles!

wabmester

Dragonwolf wrote: »

The ketogains site you linked contradicts what you say about adding muscle mass.

You piqued my interest. I could find three studies comparing the results of weight lifting on high-carb vs low-carb.

This article contains two results.

Layman (2005) says women lost more muscle mass on low-carb without weight lifting, but they lost less muscle mass with weight lifting.

Volek (2010) says low-carb men lost more muscle mass without weight lifting, and they gained slightly less muscle mass with weight lifting.

And this poster (2014) says men gained more muscle mass on low-carb.

So a bit of a mixed bag for keto and adding muscle mass, but it can be done.

Edit: a pretty good podcast from one of the researchers in the last study is here with good links:
http://sigmanutrition.com/episode82/

Sunny_Bunny_

This podcast is relevant
https://www.ketovangelist.com/episode-29-dustin-schaffer-explains-how-keto-improves-fitness-and-exercise-performance/
"we talk about how keto can improve fitness and athletic performance, how it helps in aerobics, how it helps with weight lifting, and how it is an optimal state of conditioning."

JQuinnLife

AshleyC1023 wrote: »

Any ideas?

Here are two resources that I usually give to other guys who are interested in Ketogenics:

Ketogains Website + Ketogains Reddit

and

The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance

It's important for us men to never associate a style of eating with the term "diet", it sounds feminine. Might sound stupid to think that way, but we just think that way. So I would fully avoid the word diet or any association with weight loss with your husband.

Focus on the term "Keto Gains", it sounds awesome, and it spells out exactly what he's trying to do, build muscle and add weight while reducing body fat % further.

The book about Low Carb Performance is really shaking up the athletic community. And a must read for anyone even remotely interested in the idea of low carb eating for athletes.

AshleyC1023

Thanks! The word "diet" is a bad word in our house already. Especially for someone who really doesn't need to lose weight - the mentality of "why should I diet, I'm thin" ya know. He's pretty on board to "eat healthy" though, and I think I found a solution to the monsters. The Monster ultra's have 1 carb, no sugar, no calories - now if I can convince him he doesn't need to drink 4-6 a day, that'll be a miracle.
He'll go to the gym with me, no problem there. Just have to work out a plan that doesn't include a ton of running because he already does that, and like me, hates it.

JQuinnLife

AshleyC1023 wrote: »

...I think I found a solution to the monsters. The Monster ultra's have 1 carb, no sugar, no calories - now if I can convince him he doesn't need to drink 4-6 a day, that'll be a miracle.

I'm assuming he's drinking that many Monsters for energy, energy he needs because of his high carb diet. I would suggest replacing Monster with bulletproof coffee and pre-workout .

I drink at least two cups of BPC and two servings of PW Monday-Friday. Mostly for the flavor and caffeine addiction. It's a great replacement for high sugar, high carbs, high calorie Monster energy drinks.

AshleyC1023 wrote: »

He'll go to the gym with me, no problem there. Just have to work out a plan that doesn't include a ton of running because he already does that, and like me, hates it.

A great workout regimen that's super simple and very effective is StrongLifts 5x5. I recommend it to everyone. It's only three days a week, three exercises a day, 45-60 minutes a session. It's as simple as you can make a workout. Crazy part, you get shredded, strong, and can gain some serious mass.

Once your strength is built up, you can always start adding additional exercises to increase the difficultly level. One of the most important things to remember, especially for him, is to REST. It's 3 days a week only because you need the other 4 to rest and allow your body to build up that muscle.

_Terrapin_

A quote from the main forums:

'While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.' ninerbuff May 2012 was the poster....something to consider.

JQuinnLife

_Terrapin_ wrote: »

....something to consider.

I will allow BodyBuilding.com do the explaining:

Consuming too much protein might not sound like a bad thing, but it is important to understand that a ketogenic diet is very high fat (70-75 percent), very low carbohydrate (5 percent), and moderate in protein (20-25 percent). Some bodybuilders get up 40 percent of their diet from protein, 50 percent from fat, and 10 percent from carbohydrates. However, when protein is consumed above 1.5-1.8 grams per kilogram of body weight, it actually increases the formation of glucose, which we have found in our lab makes it difficult to get individuals into ketosis.6 In fact, research has shown that this kind of diet can actually be detrimental to both muscle and strength.7

Most Ketogenic proponents, myself included, recommend a 65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carb macro breakdown. At this level, you cannot really reach the level of protein needed for muscle tissue to be used as energy.

Also this doesn't take into consideration that the person would have to be at a very low body fat % already, have a massive amount of muscle, and eat at a very high percentage and caloric intake of protein for at least a month before muscle is catabolized.

When doing a comparison of the benefits of LC and HC diets, LC wins in every situation except ridiculous outliers. And you know it's true when someone has to stretch this far to reach an excuse not to eat Ketogenic for muscle mass.

_Terrapin_

Nage3000 wrote: »

_Terrapin_ wrote: »

....something to consider.

I will allow BodyBuilding.com do the explaining:

Consuming too much protein might not sound like a bad thing, but it is important to understand that a ketogenic diet is very high fat (70-75 percent), very low carbohydrate (5 percent), and moderate in protein (20-25 percent). Some bodybuilders get up 40 percent of their diet from protein, 50 percent from fat, and 10 percent from carbohydrates. However, when protein is consumed above 1.5-1.8 grams per kilogram of body weight, it actually increases the formation of glucose, which we have found in our lab makes it difficult to get individuals into ketosis.6 In fact, research has shown that this kind of diet can actually be detrimental to both muscle and strength.7

Most Ketogenic proponents, myself included, recommend a 65% fat, 30% protein, 5% carb macro breakdown. At this level, you cannot really reach the level of protein needed for muscle tissue to be used as energy.

Also this doesn't take into consideration that the person would have to be at a very low body fat % already, have a massive amount of muscle, and eat at a very high percentage and caloric intake of protein for at least a month before muscle is catabolized.

When doing a comparison of the benefits of LC and HC diets, LC wins in every situation except ridiculous outliers. And you know it's true when someone has to stretch this far to reach an excuse not to eat Ketogenic for muscle mass.

Not sure you are speaking to me, but the poster I quoted above was ninerbuff. You can PM if you'd like or take some time to read the thread it is written in, or respond to the thread since it is open. Not sure what your point is exactly.

AshleyC1023

Nage3000 wrote: »

AshleyC1023 wrote: »

...I think I found a solution to the monsters. The Monster ultra's have 1 carb, no sugar, no calories - now if I can convince him he doesn't need to drink 4-6 a day, that'll be a miracle.

I'm assuming he's drinking that many Monsters for energy, energy he needs because of his high carb diet. I would suggest replacing Monster with bulletproof coffee and pre-workout .

I drink at least two cups of BPC and two servings of PW Monday-Friday. Mostly for the flavor and caffeine addiction. It's a great replacement for high sugar, high carbs, high calorie Monster energy drinks.

AshleyC1023 wrote: »

He'll go to the gym with me, no problem there. Just have to work out a plan that doesn't include a ton of running because he already does that, and like me, hates it.

A great workout regimen that's super simple and very effective is StrongLifts 5x5. I recommend it to everyone. It's only three days a week, three exercises a day, 45-60 minutes a session. It's as simple as you can make a workout. Crazy part, you get shredded, strong, and can gain some serious mass.

Once your strength is built up, you can always start adding additional exercises to increase the difficultly level. One of the most important things to remember, especially for him, is to REST. It's 3 days a week only because you need the other 4 to rest and allow your body to build up that muscle.

Something like that for energy. He gets up before 5 AM - long days. He doesn't eat breakfast, comes home after morning physical training for a cup of coffee and to change into work uniform, then goes to work until 5-5:30. He does come home at lunch but usually doesn't eat, just chills with me for a bit. That's my gym time anyway since my toddler is at school during lunch - so we figured on going together then. I do about 20 minutes of cardio then strength training, but I don't have mandatory cardio every morning either!
I make bulletproof coffee and love it, I'm not sure how much he'll love it, but will definitely try. I really appreciate the tips, it's good to hear from a male perspective.

Sunny_Bunny_

I've always heard that Keto is very muscle sparing. Someone (can't remember who) shared their dexa scans before showing increase in muscle even without specifically attempting to gain muscle. All while also losing body fat.
I know those body fat scales aren't exactly accurate. But in averaging the given readouts, I think it's probably accurate enough when compared to later readout averages from the same scale. My muscle has increased about 1.5% in the last 5 months, using the averages, while at a caloric deficit, eating about 65g protein and doing extremely little exercise. Even if that is wrong, I doubt it's so wrong that I've lost any muscle.

wabmester

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

I've always heard that Keto is very muscle sparing.

It is, with the possible exception of the first few weeks. In fact, that's why ketosis evolved -- to keep our muscles from wasting away during periods of famine.

But is it better than higher-carb diets for building muscle? I wouldn't think so, but at least one study says "maybe."

_Terrapin_

OP---your husband has a desk job, can be called for maneuvers, etc. Adherence on this diet may prove difficult. If his goal is adding muscle he'll need a caloric surplus. If he is going to go from what he currently consumes to keto he'd need to drop the sugary drinks. Is he willing to do this? In the field, if memory serves, you eat what is available. So, if he is not a lover of MRE's he will probably be fasting in some form or other. Other field variables include stress(cortisol release), sleep deprivation(more cortisol), and the obligatory hurry up and wait. As an NCO he has responsibilities to his men/women in the field so more potential stress. Dietary intake during these times is more about what you can get your hands on.

So, keto can be used for muscle building he needs a surplus of calories which would first require a known amount of calories at maintenance. You can calculate this at IIFYM.com or other sites by plugging in his stats like height, weight, BF%, etc. If he does PT Mon-Fri, a typical PT schedule was stretch, calistenic work, then a run. Cool down and head to work or breakfast. Average PT time was about 45-60 minutes. Run distance varied based on ability and intent. ie...someone working toward a max of 300 points and had a high 2 mile run time would train with a better runner and go farther then the platoon or company.

If he would use BPC for his energy in the AM do they have blenders in the field? I think if his goal is building muscle the first step would be to have an idea of caloric need.

AshleyC1023

Yes he can bring our immersion blender to the field, he has a power converter for his vic and it's small enough to pack. The biggest challenge is packing things that won't spoil without refrigeration. Butter lasts quite well without it.

Typical things I pack for him are tuna packets, mayo packs, crackers, "cheese whiz", sandwiches (first 2 days), vienna sausage, peanut butter, SPAM, oatmeal packs, baked goods, jerky...that kind of stuff.

Yes he has a desk job, sort of. He is in a physical MOS, but being where he's at with his career he gets more admin work to do. We'll try to figure out what caloric need is during home time, vs work. No doubt it changes.

Dragonwolf

_Terrapin_ wrote: »

A quote from the main forums:

'While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.' ninerbuff May 2012 was the poster....something to consider.

I don't care who actually wrote it, the bolded is wrong and the person who wrote it is misinformed. Unfortunately, it's a common misconception, and there are a couple of potential causes at play:

1. They're confusing lean body mass and muscle mass. While we functionally treat them as the same thing, they're actually different. Muscle mass is...well...muscle. Lean body mass is actually "anything that isn't fat." This includes things like bone and water. The first two weeks or so of weight loss on keto is, indeed, primarily lean body mass, but that's because it's almost entirely water. Muscle loss during this period is only slightly more than a high carb diet, all else being equal, and this difference not only goes away, but reverses over longer periods of time, after the body adapts to fat as the primary fuel source.

2. Studies that show muscle loss on keto generally have one of three fatal flaws -- 1. they're not long enough (often lasting only about two, maybe 3 weeks), 2. they're not using a practical, "real world" version of the keto diet and are using a "clinical" variation (This really matters, because the classical clinical ketogenic diet (the one used on pediatric epilepsy patients) doesn't provide sufficient protein, nutrients, and even water, and on the extreme end is little more than fortified soybean oil), or 3. they're using bioelectrical impedance to measure body fat, which is notorious for being inaccurate.

wabmester wrote: »

Dragonwolf wrote: »

The ketogains site you linked contradicts what you say about adding muscle mass.

You piqued my interest. I could find three studies comparing the results of weight lifting on high-carb vs low-carb.

This article contains two results.

Layman (2005) says women lost more muscle mass on low-carb without weight lifting, but they lost less muscle mass with weight lifting.

Volek (2010) says low-carb men lost more muscle mass without weight lifting, and they gained slightly less muscle mass with weight lifting.

And this poster (2014) says men gained more muscle mass on low-carb.

So a bit of a mixed bag for keto and adding muscle mass, but it can be done.

Edit: a pretty good podcast from one of the researchers in the last study is here with good links:
http://sigmanutrition.com/episode82/

The ketogains site has a section specifically addressing the myth that you can't gain muscle/that you lose muscle on keto. If you haven't read it already, it's definitely worth the read -- https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index#wiki_mythbusting_.2F_troubleshooting

Then, of course, there's the old "steak and eggs" diet of one Vince Gironda -- http://www.anabolicmen.com/vince-girondas-old-school-steak-and-eggs-diet-for-ultimate-weight-loss/

You might also be interested in this paper, if you haven't seen it already -- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/

Here's another fascinating thing I found while looking this stuff up -- apparently keto is especially great for lady lifters, because we rely more on growth hormone for our muscle gains, and keto encourages GH production.

_Terrapin_

Dragonwolf wrote: »

_Terrapin_ wrote: »

A quote from the main forums:

'While ketogenic diets do tend to stimulate fast weight loss, one of the major drawbacks of the ketogenic diet is that a significant percentage of that bodyweight lost is muscle mass. This negative aspect of the ketogenic diet occurs despite the fact that the body typically prefers to burn either carbohydrates or fat for energy instead of muscle protein, even during times of reduced caloric consumption. For some reason, ketogenic diets generate a greater than normal preference for muscle protein as an energy source during hypocaloric consumption. This phenomenon appears to be partially due to the poor regulation of the all-important nutrient-sensing molecule mTOR from the low-carbohydrate ketogenic diet.

During times of energy surplus, an activated mTOR turns on protein synthesis in muscle cells— leading to enhanced muscle growth and strength. During energy deficits, the inactivated mTOR leads to diminished muscle protein synthesis— leading to muscle atrophy.The consumption of the ketogenic diet has been shown by recent scientific investigation to negatively influence specific hormones and anabolic growth factors that are known to directly or indirectly activate mTOR.This negative influence on mTOR leads to the inhibition of muscle protein synthesis and contributes to the utilization of muscle protein as an energy source.This use of muscle protein as an energy source produces significant loss of muscle mass and strength.' ninerbuff May 2012 was the poster....something to consider.

I don't care who actually wrote it, the bolded is wrong and the person who wrote it is misinformed. Unfortunately, it's a common misconception, and there are a couple of potential causes at play:

1. They're confusing lean body mass and muscle mass. While we functionally treat them as the same thing, they're actually different. Muscle mass is...well...muscle. Lean body mass is actually "anything that isn't fat." This includes things like bone and water. The first two weeks or so of weight loss on keto is, indeed, primarily lean body mass, but that's because it's almost entirely water. Muscle loss during this period is only slightly more than a high carb diet, all else being equal, and this difference not only goes away, but reverses over longer periods of time, after the body adapts to fat as the primary fuel source.

2. Studies that show muscle loss on keto generally have one of three fatal flaws -- 1. they're not long enough (often lasting only about two, maybe 3 weeks), 2. they're not using a practical, "real world" version of the keto diet and are using a "clinical" variation (This really matters, because the classical clinical ketogenic diet (the one used on pediatric epilepsy patients) doesn't provide sufficient protein, nutrients, and even water, and on the extreme end is little more than fortified soybean oil), or 3. they're using bioelectrical impedance to measure body fat, which is notorious for being inaccurate.

wabmester wrote: »

Dragonwolf wrote: »

The ketogains site you linked contradicts what you say about adding muscle mass.

You piqued my interest. I could find three studies comparing the results of weight lifting on high-carb vs low-carb.

This article contains two results.

Layman (2005) says women lost more muscle mass on low-carb without weight lifting, but they lost less muscle mass with weight lifting.

Volek (2010) says low-carb men lost more muscle mass without weight lifting, and they gained slightly less muscle mass with weight lifting.

And this poster (2014) says men gained more muscle mass on low-carb.

So a bit of a mixed bag for keto and adding muscle mass, but it can be done.

Edit: a pretty good podcast from one of the researchers in the last study is here with good links:
http://sigmanutrition.com/episode82/

The ketogains site has a section specifically addressing the myth that you can't gain muscle/that you lose muscle on keto. If you haven't read it already, it's definitely worth the read -- https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index#wiki_mythbusting_.2F_troubleshooting

Then, of course, there's the old "steak and eggs" diet of one Vince Gironda -- http://www.anabolicmen.com/vince-girondas-old-school-steak-and-eggs-diet-for-ultimate-weight-loss/

You might also be interested in this paper, if you haven't seen it already -- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/

Here's another fascinating thing I found while looking this stuff up -- apparently keto is especially great for lady lifters, because we rely more on growth hormone for our muscle gains, and keto encourages GH production.

I'll look for the thread. It has/had a brief discussion about retention/building/losing etc with respect to muscle.

_Terrapin_

The link: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/578951/ketogenic-diets-not-good-for-muscle-building

It seems this has been posted more then once in the threads on the forums. The comments are interesting for those who want to read it.

wabmester

He's talking about a specific formulation of the ketogenic diet. Specifically, a low-protein version that has been used for epilepsy patients.

He's probably right about that particular diet. Interestingly, the low protein nature of that diet might be better for cancer prevention. Some people want to lower IGF-1.

_Terrapin_

I think the topic was moved several times on the main boards and niner just stopped posting. In a general sense, I'm not sure how much better any diet is when building muscle. Strength and muscle growth are different. So, I wonder between keto, LCD, or a balance of MACROS if the protein is being hit with a minimum how much difference there is with anaerobic work? I can't imagine there is much other then adherence and preference. Some competitors will use LCD to cycle in and out of a different diet. I think part of the rationale has to with how or when they get their intake and how bored they may become just eating.

Dragonwolf

_Terrapin_ wrote: »

I think the topic was moved several times on the main boards and niner just stopped posting. In a general sense, I'm not sure how much better any diet is when building muscle. Strength and muscle growth are different. So, I wonder between keto, LCD, or a balance of MACROS if the protein is being hit with a minimum how much difference there is with anaerobic work? I can't imagine there is much other then adherence and preference. Some competitors will use LCD to cycle in and out of a different diet. I think part of the rationale has to with how or when they get their intake and how bored they may become just eating.

From what I've read of what the old school natty bodybuilders have done, there isn't really much difference when it comes to lean tissue, as long as you get enough protein and enough calories overall. They generally manipulate their carbs for purposes of fat loss or general weight gain.