Interesting (personal) discovery about sodium (long)

gsp90x

So I'm back on the wagon (finally) since my planned eat-all-the-things holiday escapade. I knew it would take a while to get back full on but I've no regrets.

This time around though, I haven't bought any bacon. I used to eat 5kg of bacon in two weeks. I realize now that was probably contributing a lot of sodium to my daily diet. Over the last few weeks I've had on days and off days and weird symptoms and not feeling quite right etc. I knew somehow it was just a matter of tweaking my diet. I've been following zero carb (or as close as I can reasonably be) since May 2015. I've lost (prior to the holiday escapade) 50lbs. I'm pretty comfortable with my way of eating, sustainable and my quality of life is the best it's every been.

That being said, I wanted to share my recent experience in case it helps anyone.

I knew that electrolytes were important, ESPECIALLY when going INTO ketosis to avoid the horrible side effects (keto flu).

I was horrible at taking anything other than food though. I would wait until I got cramps, then take magnesium. Sodium, because of the bacon, I never worried about.

What I've learned about my body though, is that I have to take magnesium every day. Period. When I do that I just feel better all round, and I preform better at physical tasks. The interesting part is that if I don't and it goes too long my personal sign of not enough mag. is:

Confusion, intense hunger with an utter aversion to eating. I'm so hungry but the thought of eating makes me nauseous. And of course muscle fatigue and cramping. But the weird confusion and hunger is the big sign. When I take the mag pills, it takes about 10 minutes to get "right in the head" again. Brilliant. One problem solves.

What was tripping me up this time though, was a similar yet different state of confusion. This time I would actually find myself standing in my workshop suddenly wondering what I was/had been doing. Not that I forgot what I went in the room for, but completely forgot what I was doing, what project, where I was at in my day and had to look around the room for clues!! Scarry! Secondly, I would sigh. ALOT! Like every 5 breaths or so. Like I was super stressed out (though I wasn't). I couldn't concentrate or focus on tasks. Just like I was insanely stressed out. I was exhausted but couldn't sleep. Weepy and blue. The Beast suggested it was a lack of sodium.

I took a bouillon cube in water. The sighing stopped within an hour or so, but I woke up the next day 50% better; So the next day I took two "soups". By the next day I was right again.

Over the next week the sighing built up again over a few days. I did the soup trick and again it took a couple of days to get right again. The next week, I was catching on and as soon as I noticed myself sighing I took some soup. This time it took about 4 hours to get back to normal. Each time I would take the soup to help alleviate symptoms I would feel even worse for about an hour or so.

Now? Duh. Now, even though I really don't like it, I'm just treating it like medicine. 1 bouillon cube a day if I'm not eating bacon. Happy to say, I've got my life back and it's full steam ahead, just in time. As a self-employed one woman show, it was really setting me back (and ticking me off!) I've got so much living (and working) to do now that I'm healthy and free of all the debilitating issues I had for over 20 years before I found this way of eating.

So I guess the point is if you're struggling, REALLY listen and tweak and try. No matter how weird it seems. Trust your intuition and I wish you all the health you hope for and all the joy your heart can hold!

Thank you for sharing my journey.

nicintime

Yup.

For simplicity and ease Phinney recommends one cube in the morning and one at night, which with my cubes is 5 grams of salt.

Keto adapted two main phobias seem to be recurring, fat and salt.

Glad you're finding what works.

gsp90x

Really? Interesting.

Now with the whole salt phobia thing is there a change of getting too much sodium? I'm assuming you'd simply have symptoms as well and you'd adjust? So I should likely up it to two cubes a day?

There's no way to actually test (at home for cheap) electrolytes is there? It's just more of a symptomatic thing?

baconslave

I'm so glad you're doing better!
Lord, I hate the bouillon cube, too. Most of the time I use Mio in water and mix in salt and potassium salt. Like a keto gatorade. I chug it, and it's done. Within such a short period of time, the symptoms go away. It's crazy. But it works. Every. Time. I supplement mag every day as well. Those things are so essential.

See, people! There's a reason I'm an electrolyte pusher.

gsp90x

@baconslave Interesting you say MIO water. Previously I was using a similar thing made by gatorade that said it had electrolytes. After quite a time, I was sooooo thirsty I just couldn't drink enough and had the worst headache and other symptoms. Stopped drinking that gatorade water stuff and felt better. Weird huh? I did use mio for a while without problems except it triggered my sugar cravings so I decided my personal need was to go cold turkey and water only But should I be short bouillon cubes... nice to know I can just chug it. Blech!

baconslave

gsp90x wrote: »

@baconslave Interesting you say MIO water. Previously I was using a similar thing made by gatorade that said it had electrolytes. After quite a time, I was sooooo thirsty I just couldn't drink enough and had the worst headache and other symptoms. Stopped drinking that gatorade water stuff and felt better. Weird huh? I did use mio for a while without problems except it triggered my sugar cravings so I decided my personal need was to go cold turkey and water only But should I be short bouillon cubes... nice to know I can just chug it. Blech!

Gatorade is BS. They have a pittance of sodium and potassium. I get a 500mg burst of each in the ones I make. They are rarely more than 8-12oz, so less artificial sweetener is used.

But I did actually make bouillon broth yesterday. With potassium salt added of course. I'm doing ADF and yesterday was my 1000cal day. So I got to pretend I was eating soup. Had to really use my imagination on that one.

baconslave

gsp90x wrote: »

Really? Interesting.

Now with the whole salt phobia thing is there a change of getting too much sodium? I'm assuming you'd simply have symptoms as well and you'd adjust? So I should likely up it to two cubes a day?

There's no way to actually test (at home for cheap) electrolytes is there? It's just more of a symptomatic thing?

I'm sure you can get too much sodium. But ketotic bodies excrete so much of it, as long as you keep hydrated, and don't venture too far over 5000mg, you ought to be fine.

As far as adding a second, just see how you feel. Try it once, and if you feel even better roll with it. It all depends on how much sodium you get in the rest of your diet during the day. On days I eat foods that are a little more processed, I get more added sodium. A lot of my foods are not processed and on days I eat mainly unprocessed, less-salted foods, I need a little extra added to my keto-waters.

wabmester

Welcome to the sodium lover's club.

It's hard to get too much, and your body just dumps the excess. Worst case, you retain water for about 4 days till it gets dumped.

Testing for electrolytes is useless. Your sodium concentration probably wasn't low. Your body maintains a constant 140 mmol/L. It's tightly regulated.

The way it's regulated is by changes in blood volume (dumping or retaining water) as well as some other neat tricks.

So the symptoms you experienced were due to low blood volume. Lots of interesting stuff happens when your blood volume gets low, including poor perfusion to your brain.

Probably why some people experience an anti-depressant effect when they consume sodium.

GaleHawkins

@gsp90x thanks for bringing up this subject because it is the one point about not eating processed foods that I forget about and wind up low on sodium.

ladipoet

Very interesting...glad you listened to your body and finally got right again though!

ncprice1

Hiya. I'm still dealing with dizzy spells - not fun. So far, the bouillon has helped, but my ankles swell like crazy. Frustrating!

KarlaYP

@ncprice1 , my ankles used to swell so bad that all I could wear was flip flops, even in winter! The thing is, I have never liked the taste of salt, and avoided it completely! So, why the swelling? Not sure. I know that since beginning LCHF if I don't get enough sodium I will have some swelling. I use sodium chloride tablets to keep my sodium up, instead of using food that I don't feel like eating anyway! I strive for 4000mg a day, even after being LCHF for 11 months! This way of eating is completely opposite of what we have been told (read brainwashed!)! Also, my most recent blood pressure was 118/78, so the sodium isn't affecting my blood pressure other than helping it, leading to being healthy! Imo, the broth isn't enough to sustain the needs of sodium with LCHF! Get your sodium up, and drink lots of fluids, and the swelling will go away!

macchiatto

This is interesting. Thanks for sharing!
What/how much do you take in the way of a mag supplement? I've been mindful of sodium all along and recently purchased mortons salt substitute for the potassium but haven't done anything for magnesium.

DittoDan

Another thought. I mirrored your situation for 15 months. Eat enough salt, all is well.

But lately, I have been able to go OFF of magnesium. Yes, you heard that right. My solution though, is rather complicated. I found out if you eat brine/fermented/veggies... there is a dynamic where the fermented foods add acidity to your digestion system, which make the electrolytes, mineral and vitamins ~ "uptake" better and are more available to your body. There's lot of science behind this. Too much the thresh out here.

I hope this helps,
Dan the Man from Michigan
Keto / The Recipe Water Fasting /

E.A.S.Y. Exercise Program

KarlaYP

@macchiato, I would begin magnesium with the citrate, or eliminate, name. Usually 250mg is a standard dose. Proceed slowly due to potential bathroom issues from it. I have read to take it until this occurs, then back off to the just lower dose (hope that makes sense!).

gsp90x

I used a cal/mag combo but thanks to @DittoDan's extensive research/explanations who was quite helpful in my beginning stages, I tried the citrate and definitely noticed a difference there. Now I take two citrate and one cal/mag just so I get some calcium in as well. 3 mag citrate pills will give me bathroom issues but two plus the one cal/mag works great for daily use. Last summer though I had horrendous problems with foot cramps whenever my daily exercise would go up so I haven't sorted that issue yet. I'm thinking it might be potassium. Which I do not supplement. I don't know the dose of my mag citrate or cal/mag as I'm not at home and don't have the bottle, but yeah, i'm assuming you'd have to test it out on yourself and see. I just started with what the bottle said and made sure to be near a bathroom until I knew how I reacted. When I get more mag than I need the bathroom problems last about 8 hrs.

@DittoDan That's super cool that you've gotten off your mag and are getting it from actual food sources. I mean, that is REALLY cool! I want to get into making my own fermented pickles, but that seems like a pipe dream at the moment. Then again, so did losing over 100lbs and look at me know Never say never.

@ncprice1 how much water are you drinking? I've hear people say that not enough water will actually cause the body to retain water and cause some swelling. Then I suppose when you add salt that might make it worse. I think it was dragonwolf who was also saying it was about blood volume. So maybe if you add salt but not enough water, the blood volume is still not optimal. Just a thought. It is a bit counter intuitive but from personal experience I have seen that not enough intake of water does lead to swelling in my own body. I don't know how but it does. I'm amazed at how much I have to drink. It's like I'm just drinking the bloody stuff all day. ALL day. It's almost worse than house work! Never done.