Newbie squat time: how do YOU make a shelf for low-bar position?

DopeItUp

So my squats have forever sucked, after 3.5 years I can only barely manage a ROUGH 385 (whereas my DL is 545). I'm dieting right now so using slightly deloaded weights and I'm trying to break down my squat form (for the millionth time) and revise it the best I can.

The part I'm working on right now is making a shelf for low-bar. I tend to slump forward a lot in the squat, leading to a bar path that drifts forward. This results in things like hips shooting up, good-morning the weight, etc.. It has perplexed me forever.

I'm working on keeping a more vertical torso with chest up. I'm actually having slightly better luck by really getting my chest out and "fighting" the bar backwards to keep from leaning forward too far in the hole. However, this is making the bar very unstable on my back. It actually slipped off my back tonight at a very light weight (265)! Boy that hurt my shoulders and elbows (I actually powered it back onto my shoulders and finished the set!). Anyway, this long backstory leads to the question at hand. How are YOU making the best low-bar rack possible? I think this may be a root cause of my problem, I subconsciously lean forward to really keep the bar secure on my back and it leads to all the other issues.

I've tried a lot of things and nothing really seems effective other than just leaning over more. If I just sorta scrunch up my back and force my shoulder blades together the bar just wants to slide down my back. It's even worse if I try to "put my shoulder blades in my back pockets" like I'm benching. Should I be trying to "shrug" my shoulders up more? Any useful cues that might help me here? How big is hand position in keeping the bar on your back? I've tried narrow, wide, full grip, false grip, everything. Nothing really seems that great. I feel like I'm just missing that one things that makes it "click".

Final note, I am forced to squat fairly upright because I'm tall (6'3") with a TALL torso. My inseam is only 32", I'm all torso. So I'm not trying to squat vertically for no reason, you can see in numerous videos how my bar path is way forward due to too much forward lean.

I may just put grip tape on the bar or just chalk my shirt for everything but it seems crazy to have 265 sliding off my back when that's only <70% of my max.

auddii

This thread needs more photos. In because I have this problem too, although I had the bar way too low even for low bar.

TR0berts

I've had the bar slip down when I was using a false grip. Ever since I started using a full grip, I haven't had that problem. Full grip also allows me to squeeze the bar better/harder, so I stay tighter.

With regards to making the shelf, I'm not really sure how to explain it - I just do it. I'll try, anyway. You mentioned shrugging your shoulders. That's kinda what I have to do for heavier weights. I pull my shoulders/lats back and down to approach the bar. But, right before I unrack, I do pull back a little more, which either seems to cause, or I just do it naturally, bring my rear delts "up" a little. That, combined with the full grip, keeps the bar steady. Granted, the most I've done is 4x5x345, but it seemed to be OK.

Regarding hand position, the sweet spot for me is putting my middle finger on the ring. Not too wide, not too narrow. Any narrower, and I tend to carry too much on my elbows. And that width still allows me to keep things tight. Of course, I'm only 5'8", so it'll likely be a different spot for you.

richln

Holy crap 265 slipped off and you pushed it back up to finish the set?

One cue I find helpful is to stick my butt back really far on warmup descents to help find my center of gravity and keep my knees back:


I use a wide grip and wideish stance and the shelf just always came pretty naturally to me, a lot more natural than high bar ever felt. I don't pinch my shoulders very much. All of this is stolen from http://ruggedfellowsguide.com/low-bar-vs-high-bar-squats/



"The barbell is places on top of the posterior deltoid, in a horizontal groove made by the scapula that is directly located between the top of the posterior deltoid and the trapezius muscles."



I can see how a tall torso would make this a challenging lift for you. Your bar has a center knurling, right?

RachelX04

bumping as I am also attempting low bar squats.

SideSteel

I'll get a video of this and post to see if it helps.

I think that if the bar is tending to roll down without you leaning over excessively, you may just need to raise the bar position slightly. It's possible that you're just a tad too low.

I'm not suggesting high-bar btw, just not quite as low as you are.

jmule24

Having the bar lower on your back is going to naturally force you to lean forward a bit more as the bar is trying to stay directly over your mid-foot. It's definitely a different feeling than a high bar squat. Just like the other lifts your setup is going to be different than the next person based on your "dimensions." Anything below your traps is "low-bar" squatting, where the most comfortable spot is depends for many.
For me, I squeeze my shoulder blades together as tight as I can and it seems to build a natural shelf for the bar to sit on.

nossmf

Rather than going low-bar, I've had better luck keeping vertical when I placed my feet in sumo position rather than close together.

SideSteel

I took a short clip, will upload later today hopefully. Not sure if it will help any but you can see where the bar is seated and how I get into position.

DopeItUp

Here's a rear-view video of a max-effort 5 rep squat from earlier this year. To me it looks fine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ArL67FU83k

But the problem I'm having, that you can't see is too much lean. Here's a side view of what should be a light weight (from last week):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfLlxUIpn-U

First rep looks okay but shaky, followed by progressively more and more forward lean through each rep.

Even the best squat I've ever done (385x1) still had me pitching forward out of the hole and my hips shooting up a little.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRXYOQ55KAw



Basically my squats look more like good mornings every time. I think I've had a vertical bar path maybe a handful of times out of the past few years of squatting. So I'm trying to figure out ways to fix it. Maybe I'm just weak and the weight is just too much. But it happens at low weights too.

So basically, long story short, the whole point of this thread was me thinking my lean was just a subconscious attempt to keep the weight more secure on my back.

I think I just need a competent coach to tell me what I'm doing wrong and/or what cues or fixes are needed. My squat really shouldn't be this bad AND weak to boot. My bench is actually only 60lbs less than my squat now and my DL is 160lbs MORE than my squat.

timg760

i get some fwd lean too, when i lose focus on what i am doing or drop too fast. I get fwd lean on one rep, get my head out of my rectum, and then no lean on the next. But that's only one possible cause of lean. Or two.

SideSteel

Being brutally honest here I'm not convinced this is even an issue.

On some of that rep work it's a tad "wobbly" and you have some minor deviation in bar path but it's really minor. Given that the 385 is a heavy squat that also looked solid to me.

Only thing I would consider addressing would possibly be to see if you can get tighter in the upper back and pull down on the barbell like you're trying to bend it over your back to see if that helps tighten things up.

I really don't think this is bad though.

Chieflrg

Dude those look pretty solid. Your slight lean forward isn't uncommon for lifters with longer torsos. I'm tall like you, and everybody is built different and we can't be picture oerfect as much as we like, but those look good. The 1rep, looked fine considering are form does bend when we are in the 1rm pool.

For me I have to use a false grip because of a joint disease making it impossible to grab the bar fully. I literally wiggle the bar into place while tightening my back while pulling my elbows down and back. My cue is to bend the bar over my shoulders. One problem im addressing is keeping tight when in the hole, but when I really lock down the bar it helps.

DopeItUp

Thanks guys. Interesting about the "pulling down" cue, I'll have to experiment a bit. I'm usually thinking about pushing the bar forward into my back to keep it in my place. In fact, I commonly squat with a false grip and without my fingers even touching the bar, just my palms pressing on the bar. I'm probably not "pulling down" because I'm already afraid of losing the bar off of my back in the first place. I'll have to play around with that a bit.

SideSteel

DopeItUp wrote: »

Thanks guys. Interesting about the "pulling down" cue, I'll have to experiment a bit. I'm usually thinking about pushing the bar forward into my back to keep it in my place. In fact, I commonly squat with a false grip and without my fingers even touching the bar, just my palms pressing on the bar. I'm probably not "pulling down" because I'm already afraid of losing the bar off of my back in the first place. I'll have to play around with that a bit.

I think if you are pushing it into your back it could contribute to forward lean, possibly. It's probably also why your elbows are a bit far back/up rather than downward -- this is itself isn't necessarily a problem but it could contribute a bit.

I'd be curious how the pulling down bit works for you, got it from Helms when I was having some trouble with feeling like the bar was secure.

DopeItUp

I did some squats tonight and played around with some scenarios. A few things I noticed:

1) Pulling down on the bar hurt the hell out of my elbows. But as I mentioned earlier, I really have my hands "high" on the bar, palms pressing the bar into my back. I lowered my hands a bit so the bar was in my fingers and that helped a lot. I was able to angle my wrists and elbows more towards my sides instead of straight back (causing the "chicken wing" effect as SS mentioned). I even tried just three fingers on the bar and that helped even more but then I didn't feel quite as stable. Might play with that more. But definitely pulling down/elbows in seemed to help quite a bit. My warm-up sets were picture perfect for a change.

2) However, at the same weight as before (265) I started losing the bar again. Didn't totally lose it but actually had to stop on rep 3 to shift the bar up a little since it was falling off of the left side. Watching the video, it's shifting mostly at the top of the rep. I try to explode up out of the hole and about 75% of the way up you can see it starting to fall a little (probably where I'm pulling down on it the hardest too).

I looked at the bar a bit and took some measurements. The smooth part of my bar is actually wider than it's supposed to be (regulation is about 16", mine is 18.25" of smooth). When it's on my back, the center knurling really isn't doing much since it's situated right between my shoulder blades (it's touching my shirt but sorta just floating), and the outside knurling doesn't touch my shoulders at all either. So basically it's all smooth on my shoulder blades/rear delts. I tried a few different shirts and an old cotton t-shirt seemed to help, whereas a tech fabric was like an oil slick. I could barely even unrack the bar without it sliding. I ended up adding two thin "rings" of friction tape to the smooth part of the bar and that helped immensely. I may add more or add knurling to the bar to help. Plus, I put calipers on the bar and it was 32mm thick, which is 4mm thicker than my other bar (deadlift bar). Thicker may not allow it to sit in the groove as well. All "little" things but may be contributing. I'll play with adding friction and then over the spring and summer maybe try to build up those upper back muscles to build a better shelf.

I think I may be heading in the right direction. 4 plates or bust this year.

timg760

DopeItUp wrote: »

4 plates or bust this year.

DITTO!!

jmule24

@DopeItUp you should look into one of these.....kinda neat.

Grip Shirt!!!

DopeItUp

I'm considering it. I saw that on Brandon Campbell's channel not too long ago if I remember. Tempting.

DopeItUp

...anndddd purchased.

_benjammin

DopeItUp wrote: »

I'm considering it. . . Tempting.

^That didn't last long.
lol

DopeItUp

_benjammin wrote: »

DopeItUp wrote: »

I'm considering it. . . Tempting.

^That didn't last long.
lol

My wife says that to me a lot.