What is wrong with my approach?

7aneena

Hello everyone,
I wrote a post a week ago I think about my plan and I don't if it is working and maybe I need to make some changes, I'm not sure what changes to make.
To make a long story short, I've been eating around 50g net carbs, the plan I was following did have cookies made with almond flour and sweetened with coconut palm sugar - I'm thinking maybe that was keeping from losing weight?
It has been over 10 days since I had LC dessert though.

Anyway since I started eating LC I've losing and gaining the same 2-3 lbs and I have about 25-30 lbs of fat to lose, I am assuming I am going to lose LBM in the process, hopefully no more than 5 lbs (currently I weigh 170 lbs at 5 feet tall, 115 LBS, 40 LBM non essential fat)
I am confused with the information I've been reading, some "expert" say women should eat between 50-75 of carbs, while others say to lose weight you should aim for around 20 carbs.

I'm also confused with the whole protein consumption thing, I just can't see how I can be full while eating less than a 100g of protein when a 6oz chicken breast is 53g of protein.

I am looking for help, advise, things that worked for you and also anyone who has an open diary and has been successful losing weight

Also, for someone who wants to lose 30lbs of fat, what is a reasonable rate?

sammyliftsandeats

If you are just starting out then I would try it without the low carb substitutes and desserts. Keep things simple at first and perhaps try using the calculator in the launch pad to figure out what is right for your body?

7aneena

I did stop the desserts but my weight still won't budge. My issue with the calculator is at 10% C, 25% P, 65% F which is 32g, 80g, 95g respectively is not enough food for me to be full. With these macros I always go above the recommended protein

FIT_Goat

You might be especially carb sensitive. Are you diabetic or insulin resistant? Do you know your fasting glucose or maybe even your HDL and trigs from a blood test?

It might be that 50 net carbs is too high for you. Would you consider going lower? And, of course, cut out the fake sweeteners and replacement foods (focus on real foods, not replacing carb foods with low-carb replicas) until you have a working baseline.

7aneena

@FIT_Goat diabetes runs in my family, I am prediabetic. My blood glucose always comes out normal but I do have insulin resistance and I am on metformin for metabolic syndrome. I don't remember my cholesterol and triglycerides levels but I know that TG, total cholesterol and LDL were borderline high while HDL was low.
I can manage ~30 g net carbs but my issue is that I do not know how to increase fat without also increasing protein.
Does anyone here have an open diary I can look at for ideas?

Sunny_Bunny_

The IR will make your current carb goal and the low carb "faux foods" particularly troublesome for you.
Same with high protein.
If you're hungry, you're likely not getting enough fat or enough of the right fat or enough calories.
What's your calorie total been like?

7aneena

@Sunny_Bunny_ my calories range between 1200-1500 but mostly avg around 1300. My fat intake is ranges from 60-70g. I did stock up on skinless chicken breast before I started all of this so eating lean meat is probably not helping

sammyliftsandeats

@7aneena Try cooking your chicken breast in butter or coconut oil. It will up the fat without adding more protein or carbs. An easy way to add more fat and help you feel more satisfied.

Beachlady228

I have an open diary, feel free to friend me. I have around 1300 calories with macros at 5/20/75. I eat a lot of chicken breasts, (my SO does not eat beef) I just cook with lots of coconut oil, butter and cream. If I get hungry, I just eat more, but keep my Macros in line.

DaniTronMcNally

I have an open diary. Saying women need more carbs than men is not really accurate. I've been researching this a lot lately. I've been told that as a woman and as a mum who is breastfeeding I can't dip below 75 carbs. Well I've been having 20-25 a day for 6 weeks now and I feel fantastic. My daughter is happier (less belly aches, better sleep etc) and I think it's making a huge difference to my anxiety and stress. Add me

FIT_Goat

Yeah, you have all the characteristics of being extra sensitive to carbs. It might just be that 50 grams net is too high for you.

The extra protein may cause you problems, but I would cross that bridge when you come to it. By my calculations, you're near 120 grams right now? Is that about right? You could probably hit 140-150 grams without major issues, if you need to add more. It takes a fairly large amount over your body's needs for it to cause a problem, and that is only for some people. The lean meat is not helping, but that is what heavy cream, cheese sauces, and bacon are there for.

It would definitely be a good idea to move down to 30 grams and see if that brings about a change. My first instinct, whenever someone is struggling to lose but everything says they shouldn't be, is to try lower carbs. Usually, they don't have any clue that they're that sensitive to them. You already have a lot of clues that carbs are a big issue and you might need to restrict them more than others.

Is it fair that some people can have success at 50 grams and you might be best at half that? No. But, life isn't always fair. How many people out there eat 60% carbs and never seem to gain weight? Everyone needs to find what works for their own body.

Personally, I find trouble if I go much above 20 grams and I am best near 0 grams. I'm not even that sensitive compared to most folks. I lose with anything under 40 grams, although being around there causes more cravings. I just find that I feel best when far away from my limit.

Sunny_Bunny_

I eat skinless chicken breast a lot myself. I cook it in butter or coconut oil and sometimes make a sauce from heavy cream, butter, cheese and garlic or whatevever flavor you like for it.
You can make it work.
If you add fat to your meal with those things you will find that 4 oz or so of chicken will do quite nicely.
BUT, being new to this, it's a good idea not to bother restricting calories at first. However, you will have to keep carbs low enough to prevent an insulin response or you will not be able to achieve enough hunger control to prevent you from wildly overeating.
Being IR makes that a bit trickier because you are more sensitive to any and all carbs. So you get a greater insulin response than a non IR person does with the same amount of carbs.
I would recommend to count total carbs. That "net" business can be a license to allow things that will become an issue. You can and will reverse your IR in time on a LCHF diet and may be able to increase to your current amount when that happens. But, I believe you find the magic spot for hunger control and the least insulin response at 20-ish or less total.
Do you drink coffee? I think if you could do an intermittent fast from dinner one night until lunch the next day by drinking a couple cups of coffee with coconut oil and butter that you will get there the fastest as far as being able to feel comfortably in control of what you're eating. And having zero carbs in the morning will be a huge benefit for you with IR too. Also helps to boost ketones, and adaptation.
Just another note, you need sodium. Quite a lot of it. Try to drink broth or eat a few pickles and salt all your foods to taste to help get the 300-5000mg you'll be needing because you will be losing a lot of salt with the water that will going.
You will also need magnesium. A good supplement is magnesium glycinate but good luck finding it in any store. You can typically find magnesium citrate at Walgreens but you'll get about 2g carbs from their gel tablets.
It really is best to order online...
So, work on getting your fat up.
Consider coconut oil/butter coffee. Will give you 30+ grams of fat right there.
Get at least 4000 mg salt a day your first week. You can even just take a couple sodium chloride tablet you can get at Walgreens if that's easier.
And order you some magnesium. Electrolytes are insanely important.

nvmomketo

I am prediabetic and appear to be quite carb sensitive. My weight loss stops when total carbs are above 30g, and I feel my best when it is well below 20g. I do tend to eat more when carbs creep up too so that would contribute to the problem too.

I am also protein sensitive. When my protein intake gets above 20% my blood glucose starts to rise. I imagine my insulin is way up again too. I am a believer in the influence of insulin on weight, so I find it unsurprising that I don't lose well when my protein intake is higher.

macchiatto

I was formerly prediabetic (reversed it) but I have PCOS and I also appear to be IR/carb sensitive. I was eating 1350 calories/day until just recently (getting closer to maintenance). I lost 20 lbs in a little over 3 months. My macro percentages were the same as yours; 10% carbs, 25% protein, 65% fat though for me that meant staying under 20-30gm net carbs. I agree I'd try 30 net and see how your body responds.

I was on a low carb/low fat/high protein diet previously and personally I've found that once I got the hang of low carb/high fat/adequate protein and what to eat, I've been less hungry and more satisfied with fewer carb cravings than when I was low carb/high protein. It might take some more experimenting with the amount and type of fat you're eating for satiety.

DietPrada

I ate 1600 calories and 20g of carbs for 9 months last year and lost almost nothing. For the last two months I've cut out vegetables, 10 - 13g carbs, no artificial sweeteners, same calories and I've lost 6kg. My whole family on my Dad's side has diabetes. My doctor told me 3 years ago if I didn't make changes I would have diabetes by the time I was 40. I'm 41 now and my bloods are perfect, my health has never been better. I don't have trouble keeping my protein at under 100g - 6oz of chicken is quite a bit. My biggest secret is intermittent fasting of a sort, meaning I will have a big coffee with 15g butter and 20ml of cream for breakfast, then about 200g meat lunch and dinner. Good foods to get fat without too much protein are avocados, and I actually love Pate. The bottom drawer of my fridge is full of salami, cheese stringers, pate pods (50g servings), little tubs of cream cheese (40g philly tubs) olives, dill pickles etc.

Edited to say, being "full" is something you need to let go of. I used to be that person, and felt I needed to be full all the time. That's partly because you can eat carbs until you feel sick but a couple of hours later you're hungry again. Once you're eating Keto you don't need to eat until you're full. Just until you're not hungry. You will stay not hungry for alot longer.

7aneena

Thank you all for your responses and suggestions. @dmedoff @DaniTronMcNally I looked at your diary and it seems very doable for me
@FIT_Goat it seems I am a poster child for what can go wrong following SAD. I do appreciate your suggestions, I think 30 is very doable especially if I don't worry so much about my 110g of protein unless it turns out to be an issue
@Sunny_Bunny_ great advise there, thank you
@nvmomketo @macchiatto your approach seems doable to me, thank you for sharing your experience, hopefully it will work for me as well
@EbonyDahlia hopefully I won't have to go that low, I'm glad you found what works for you though

erinseattle

How did you determine your lean body mass? I've been lifting weights for 10 years and at 5'2" my high was 93 lbs of LBM and that includes 4 lbs of bone. I've been analyzed by two different methods several times over the last 4 years, so I'm confident about my numbers. Visually, I have quite a lot of definition. I say all this just because I'm concerned that at 5'0", 115 lbs of LBM is a LOT, unless you have been bodybuilding. Check out this method of determining your protein needs:

http://docmuscles.com/2015/11/15/take-just-a-moment-and-admire-then-calculate-your-ideal-body-weight/

It's really easy for me to overeat protein, so I do track and use a scale. I'm fascinated by Dr. Nally and you can find a lot of information on his website, particularly about IR and diabetes - he became a doctor because he lost his father to Type 2.

You're welcome to add me - my diary is open. My starting weight was 192 and I'm around 122 now (I've put the scale in time-out until March 1).

7aneena

@erinseattle I had it measured 3 times over the past 3 years by a trainer using a caliper method that uses 20 points or areas of the body. I realize it seems like a lot but I think the heavier a person gets the more muscle they put on to compensate for the weight and carry the load. I was 220 lbs at my heaviest and for whatever reason I don't seem to lose that much muscle - lucky me

KarlaYP

You've received some amazing advice above^^^^^!!

I just wanted to wish you the best, and lat you know that I routing for you too!!

baconslave

erinseattle wrote: »

How did you determine your lean body mass? I've been lifting weights for 10 years and at 5'2" my high was 93 lbs of LBM and that includes 4 lbs of bone. I've been analyzed by two different methods several times over the last 4 years, so I'm confident about my numbers. Visually, I have quite a lot of definition. I say all this just because I'm concerned that at 5'0", 115 lbs of LBM is a LOT, unless you have been bodybuilding. Check out this method of determining your protein needs:

http://docmuscles.com/2015/11/15/take-just-a-moment-and-admire-then-calculate-your-ideal-body-weight/

It's really easy for me to overeat protein, so I do track and use a scale. I'm fascinated by Dr. Nally and you can find a lot of information on his website, particularly about IR and diabetes - he became a doctor because he lost his father to Type 2.

You're welcome to add me - my diary is open. My starting weight was 192 and I'm around 122 now (I've put the scale in time-out until March 1).

He and Jimmy Moore have a keto exclusive podcast at ketotalk.com. They answer frequently asked questions about ketogenic diets. Very informative.

wesheets

This is an interesting discussion. I have PCOS TOO. When I was eating strict 20g carbs I lost nothing-no pounds, no inches. I was at 1300 cals too. I'm not sure if the cals were too strict or the protein was too high, both or neither, I simply did not want to keep trying to work it. The fat intake philosophy is simply bizarre and upping that when protein is low and carbs is low is not eating it's trickery. That's my opinion. In other words I'm not going to eat a stick of butter or drown everything in coconut oil (bleh) just to up fat. Mind you I was eating an avocado a day! I'm not saying it can't work for others but after 7 weeks of nothing I don't think continuing on-for me-was going to produce loss or change. Frustrating. And of course when you share something like that all sorts of judge mental comments come
Out:were you honest, were you measuring correctly, were you missing something.....which implies that you've not been trying or SURELY you'd have lost something by now. I think if a diet or eating METHOD does not work for you then it doesn't. Case I point: I added back in carbs, ate 1900 calories, and lost 7 lbs overnight.

baconslave

EbonyDahlia wrote: »

Edited to say, being "full" is something you need to let go of. I used to be that person, and felt I needed to be full all the time. That's partly because you can eat carbs until you feel sick but a couple of hours later you're hungry again. Once you're eating Keto you don't need to eat until you're full. Just until you're not hungry. You will stay not hungry for alot longer.

Yeah, this is the hard part for some people but so important.

I do find though that control of my personal bottomless-pit is easier at 20g net carbs for me as well. So if you find your inner bottomless-pit on the rampage (I so hope you don't have one like mine-he's a rabid PITA) do as suggested and knock the carbs down another notch.

SamandaIndia

@wesheets I find if I eat at a big loss for a long time I can remain static weight wise until I have a day of eating much more, then what I feel like I should have lost in that time comes off in a rush like yours did (not as drastic, 7lbs is amazing). Do whatever works for you. One thing we keep seeing is that we are all different. Thxs for sharing.

baconslave

SamandaIndia wrote: »

@wesheets I find if I eat at a big loss for a long time I can remain static weight wise until I have a day of eating much more, then what I feel like I should have lost in that time comes off in a rush like yours did (not as drastic, 7lbs is amazing). Do whatever works for you. One thing we keep seeing is that we are all different. Thxs for sharing.

Yep. Sometimes the body does need a nudge.

Low-carb WOEs are a range of tools. You have to figure out the one that works best for you. Sometimes it takes experimenting to tweak your version a bit to be optimal for you. After all, we each have a unique DNA signature.

erinseattle

Good that you've been accurately measured more than once - I wish wish wish I could get to 115 lbs of muscle! That's for after I hit goal weight, perhaps.

When I started LCHF, I really only tried to stay around 50g of carbs. Over the last 18 months I have slowly gotten more comfortable with the science behind this WOE, which allowed me to tighten my macros a little more every month. As for my rate of loss, it was about 5 lbs/month.

Sending hugs because goodness knows I needed them the first several months - rewiring your brain and body is HARD and no one thing works for everyone. Feel free to message me at anytime ❤️

Erin

Sunny_Bunny_

What you see on the scale each day isn't a reflection of what you did yesterday, besides the gut contents and water balance, of course. It's more a rejection of the previous week, loosely estimating. So, changing something and seeing a difference the very next day isn't associated with fat loss or gain for that matter. It's simply water and gut contents. We talk about this constantly on here in regards to gaining. But we don't tend to mention this when someone drops 5 pounds overnight because that's not very encouraging. Maybe that's one of the reasons having a sudden gain show up the next day is so often viewed as a real gain and some kind of failure.

I know when I started out, I found it challenging to get enough fat in relation to protein. I didn't have trouble keeping carbs low. I recall asking about fat bombs once while trying to get enough to eat without it being so much protein. Even after I started adding coconut oil to my coffee with heavy cream. I just kept tweeking things and now I get an average of 110g a day with no problem. And I've never eaten a stick of butter and drown anything in coconut oil.
It's vitally important to understand the mechanics behind how insulin works, particularly for someone with IR and any associated condition that it brings.
@wabmester shared a very informative chart on another thread recently showing the blood sugar swings that occur with eating a fast acting carb and a lower, slower carb. It shows the reason why any degree of IR causes the body to immediately begin storing fat as physical fat on the body. So any spike of insulin creates fat storage.
So many things can spike insulin, especially when you are particularly sensitive to carbs. Even the taste of sweetness on the tongue from artificial sweetener can create an insulin release. Even if no carbs are ingested. The body "thinks" glucose is coming, so it reacts. And the process of protein metabolizing into glucose is greater than someone with no IR because the body is already at a state of hyperinsulinemia. So your body is "feeding the insulin" to a degree. This can significantly slow down your fat adaption because even with your very best effort, your body is producing more insulin than a non IR body on a daily basis out of habit.
It does and it will get better as sensitivity improves.
But every single time you eat a low carb "treat" or "faux food" version of carbs and all the subtracting of fiber, which does have an insulin response in many cases, and any cheat meal or snack or day, just slows down your progress by putting the body into a fat storing mode.
It's the craziest thing to think that the body will store away the energy you give it rather than use it for immediate energy needs, but that's exactly what happens with IR.
Some people with IR eat upwards of 3000 calories a day, because their bodies tell them they are still hungry all day long. Even right after having already eaten. It's a real feeling of hunger brought on by the insulin and other confused hormones. They are some of the most malnourished people around and that just doesn't make sense right? Well, it does because the body is storing too much of the eaten food and is sitting there freaking out thinking its starving because it is malfunctioning.

It's really unfortunate when someone includes low carb sweets on a regular basis, has cheat meals, doesn't include enough fat and declares low carb doesn't work for them. Asking questions to help others figure out how and where to make adjustments isn't a judgement, it's an observation. And frankly can only be made by the person sharing their disappointment and asking for help in the first place.
If I say "why can't I make purple out of blue and yellow" and people respond "well, you need red, not yellow." It's not a judgement. I'm not going to get anywhere by saying "but, I love yellow and I'm not willing to get rid of it". Even if you add red and use less yellow, you never get true purple. You might get close with the right tweeking and close can be enough sometimes. That's up to each person. But, the yellow is the clear answer to why true purple isn't happening. And saying it out loud isn't a judgement.

macchiatto

I am jealous of your LBM, too! That's awesome! I am 5'7" and my best estimate is I only have about 95 lbs of LBM. I have a small bone structure and just have never had much muscle. I'm trying to get back into a strength training routine hoping to gradually increase that (going to increase to eating at maintenance and strength train to recomp).

Dragonwolf

wesheets wrote: »

This is an interesting discussion. I have PCOS TOO. When I was eating strict 20g carbs I lost nothing-no pounds, no inches. I was at 1300 cals too. I'm not sure if the cals were too strict or the protein was too high, both or neither, I simply did not want to keep trying to work it. The fat intake philosophy is simply bizarre and upping that when protein is low and carbs is low is not eating it's trickery. That's my opinion. In other words I'm not going to eat a stick of butter or drown everything in coconut oil (bleh) just to up fat.

Contrary to popular belief, most of us don't actually eat a stick of butter, or drown everything in coconut oil, especially not for the sake of getting fat in (now, some of us might drown things in butter, but that's because we like butter ). Now, there is occasionally talk of "fat bombs," which are a blend of high fat foods, including cream cheese, coconut oil or coconut butter, and butter, plus flavorings. However, you'll find that they're generally just an aid for newer people for reprogramming the sweet cravings, dealing with the learning curve that comes with deprogramming the "low-fat" mindset that most of us start with, or compensating while phasing out things like boneless, skinless chicken breasts and low fat products. It's a short cut, basically.

Once a person gets used to eating things that are naturally higher in fat, the need for such aids diminishes and usually disappears entirely, because the fat content is built into the food. For example, you can end up with something like the following, which is a good, high-fat day:

Breakfast: 2 strips of bacon, plus 3 eggs, maybe with a tablespoon of cream, and cooked in the bacon grease

Lunch: Salad with 4oz steak, half and avocado, an ounce of cheddar cheese, a bed of romaine lettuce and spinach, maybe half a hard-boiled egg if you're into that, maybe a little carrot, cabbage, cucumbers, olives, etc., and perhaps full fat Ranch, blue cheese, or an oil and vinegar dressing

Dinner: Roasted drumsticks with skin, cauliflower and/or broccoli with cheese sauce, and fresh cucumber with full fat Ranch or French Onion dip or celery with full fat cream cheese

The above results in roughly 80g protein, 110g fat, and 50g carbs, depending on exact serving sizes and constituents of the salad, size of the eggs, choices of sides at dinner, etc. And no drowning things in coconut oil or eating sticks of butter required.

Mind you I was eating an avocado a day! I'm not saying it can't work for others but after 7 weeks of nothing I don't think continuing on-for me-was going to produce loss or change. Frustrating. And of course when you share something like that all sorts of judge mental comments come
Out:were you honest, were you measuring correctly, were you missing something.....which implies that you've not been trying or SURELY you'd have lost something by now. I think if a diet or eating METHOD does not work for you then it doesn't. Case I point: I added back in carbs, ate 1900 calories, and lost 7 lbs overnight.

While I can certainly agree with the general idea that if a framework doesn't work for you, it just doesn't work for you, and that's okay, there is a difference between asking questions for the sake of troubleshooting and being judgmental. I think it's important to recognize the differences between the two.

I've actually been flat-out told (and have seen others told) that we're lying, because on paper, we should be losing weight, but we're not. I've literally seen people accused of "sneaking food at night" if they're not losing weight. I've even been called a liar, because eating a "bacon and butter" diet can't possibly result in weight loss (even though it does for me). Those are judgmental, hands down.

Asking about whether you're logging honestly or if you missed something is usually not meant to be judgmental when it's simply asked (ie - "are you logging everything?"). It may seem that way when you first read it, especially if you're already in a state of frustration, but part of troubleshooting is going through the "101" steps that seem insulting when asked outright (this isn't unique to diet forums, either, StackOverflow has an entire guide on how to ask a good question in order to bypass these lower levels of troubleshooting; it's programming-oriented, but well worth the read for writing good questions). In the case of troubleshooting diet, such steps include questions like "are you logging everything?" and "are you weighing/measuring everything?" As a "stranger on the internet," the people trying to help don't have the background information you have about yourself, unless you tell them. It can often help to anticipate these kinds of questions and answer them in your original post. This also saves time having to ask and answer these kinds of questions.

Whether these questions turn into judgmental fights or stay civil and productive depends largely on how the asker responds to the inane questions. The important thing to remember is that cooler heads will prevail in the end, and immediately freaking out because someone asked you what you deem to be a stupid question, is very likely going to cause trouble and not get your question answered. A good tactic I've started adopting is to step away for a day or so and let my brain process the responses I've gotten so far. Usually, by doing that, I realize I've left out a crucial detail needed for others to help solve the problem, or I can re-read it and view it from a different (usually more objective) perspective. One of the hardest, but best, things I've had to make myself accept is that a forum can wait for my response. I don't need to immediately respond, and I can take my time even between reading what's there so far, and actually responding. This has gone a long way for me to keep from escalating a thread (and also means I don't have to try to "save face" later on), and makes my forum experience a more enjoyable one overall.

I've found these things to be especially important on diet websites, even moreso than on hacker/developer websites, even though the latter is far more likely to call me out on stuff and not be so polite about it, because being on the asking end of the conversation can sometimes feel like getting a bunch of rocks thrown at you. It's hard not to take it personally when someone shines light on counterproductive behaviors, especially when they're ones that you don't want to admit are hindering you or don't want to give up.

Some people with IR eat upwards of 3000 calories a day, because their bodies tell them they are still hungry all day long. Even right after having already eaten. It's a real feeling of hunger brought on by the insulin and other confused hormones. They are some of the most malnourished people around and that just doesn't make sense right? Well, it does because the body is storing too much of the eaten food and is sitting there freaking out thinking its starving because it is malfunctioning.

This is exactly the issue I dealt with when I first started watching my diet. I struggled to keep my intake below 2000 calories, because I was always hungry. Yet I continued to gain weight on that if I wasn't exercising a ton (which made the hunger worse...). Trying to describe how insulin could make this happen was rough, because it's hard to believe the body wouldn't use the fuel it has stored.

I describe it as crossed wires -- the hyperinsulinemia tells the body that there's food to store (even if there isn't), which means it's not going to use the fat stores that are on the body (so no weight loss), but the drop in blood sugar from the insulin trying to clear it all out of the system sends the "I'm hungry, must eat now" signal. The result is a miserable time trying to keep calories down through nothing but sheer willpower and not making any headway at all, and a feeling of despair when you're told "reduce your calories if you're not losing weight," because that feels like an impossible task.

wesheets

I don't understand your last paragraph but generally agree with your sentiments. I would like to note that many times I've wanted to share my ideas and garner some moral support without actually asking a question-which was germain to my point that people give advice and ask questions/make comments or judgements without any request for such. I'm not trying to be argumentative so please don't take it that way, but sometimes people are trying to be helpful but until a question is posited I think sometimes support is the desired input which is difficult to convey on a forum full of strangers who are on the same path.

Sarahb29

You've already gotten amazing advice already, keep it up! If you want a MFP friend feel free to add me, my diary is open.

RalfLott

Dragonwolf wrote: »

Thanks for the food for thought - great advice and thoughts for all of us slugging our way through the lifelong parade of puzzles and challenges.