March Q and A thread
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Speaking of renaissance periodization and nutrient timing...
I'm not sure how to phrase everything so be prepared for word vomit.
I know that nutrient timing is a small part of the big picture, but I'm interested in learning more about it. I can't find much in regards to non-bro science nutrient timing except for endurance athletes completing multiple events in the same day. Unfortunately I don't have as much time to dig as I'd like so I thought I'd try here! It's my understanding that RP is mostly about macros, timing carbs around your workouts, and not eating any fat around the time of your workouts. This is what I've gathered from talking to a few people about it so it might be completely off. RP practically promises you'll go from morbidly obese to a 6 pack while getting world records in squat, bench, dead, and total.
I have some RL friends that use it that really like it, but I'm not sure how much attention they paid to macros/nutrition in general when trying to lose fat before RP. I follow RP on IG, and with the exception of sponsored ladies I don't seem to see female strength athletes. I see a lot of women who seem want to look better (which is fine!) say they're still getting PR's, but they all have fairly average numbers so regular PR's should be expected cutting or not. While I don't doubt that RP works, as any macro based program would work, I'm a bit dubious there is any actual advantage to their particular brand of it. Which brings us to my questions...
Does anyone have any thoughts on RP specifically? Especially vs the same macros eaten like a normal human?
Any thoughts or research regarding nutrient timing for strength athletes?0 -
Fittreelol wrote: »Speaking of renaissance periodization and nutrient timing...
I'm not sure how to phrase everything so be prepared for word vomit.
I know that nutrient timing is a small part of the big picture, but I'm interested in learning more about it. I can't find much in regards to non-bro science nutrient timing except for endurance athletes completing multiple events in the same day. Unfortunately I don't have as much time to dig as I'd like so I thought I'd try here! It's my understanding that RP is mostly about macros, timing carbs around your workouts, and not eating any fat around the time of your workouts. This is what I've gathered from talking to a few people about it so it might be completely off. RP practically promises you'll go from morbidly obese to a 6 pack while getting world records in squat, bench, dead, and total. I have some RL friends that use it that really like it, but I'm not sure how much attention they paid to macros/nutrition in general when trying to lose fat before RP. I follow RP on IG, and with the exception of sponsored ladies I don't seem to see female strength athletes. I see a lot of women who seem want to look better (which is fine!) say they're still getting PR's, but they all have fairly average numbers so regular PR's should be expected cutting or not. While I don't doubt that RP works, as any macro based program would work, I'm a bit dubious there is any actual advantage to their particular brand of it. Which brings us to my questions...
Does anyone have any thoughts on RP specifically? Especially vs the same macros eaten like a normal human?
Any thoughts or research regarding nutrient timing for strength athletes?
So their templates they offer are doing all of the calorie, macro, timing details for you. Your question I know specifically deals with nutrient timing and Dr. Israetel outlines their importance in many of his videos, blogs, papers, books, etc... he has done which amounts to about 10% effect on overall body composition. This falls in line with the importance Eric Helms has associated with it based on his video and book series (although I don't think he gives it an actual value, just a level of importance). Below are the links to the research they refer to about nutrient timing. But also realize, they are catering to athletes as their clientele. Nutrient timing could be the difference of a professional athlete placing above his or her competitor, but for the general populace trainee, its not that important as that is not their job.
Sources and Further Reading:
1.) Reviews limiting the scope of effect of nutrient timing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23360586
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9155494
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19566598
2.) Reviews expanding the scope of effect of nutrient timing:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21410984
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18834505
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15806828
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23668654
3.) DOMS reduces muscular glucose uptake:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1629073
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8913325
4.) Intra-Workout Carbs:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23846824
5.) General guidelines of intake for strength/power and body composition athletes:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21660839
6.) Recommendations for Natural Bodybuilding Diet Preparation:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24864135
7.) ACSM Position Stand on Nutrition and Athletic Performance:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19225360
Also, the diet templates are auto-regulated (think calorie/carb cycling) based on the day's training activity (i.e... Less carbs for days off, moderate carbs for moderate training, higher carbs for higher intensity training), and shift to less or more calories depending on the rate of loss or gain (if trying to mass).
Note...these links are excerpts from his book to public linked material, so I don't feel like I am infringing on any copy-right issues. If the moderator feels otherwise, please delete my post.0 -
Great post0
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Thank you for the links. Some of them weren't applicable to what I was after, and some I'll be investigating more thoroughly at a later time. All look interesting nonetheless. I've read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23360586 (Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?) previously and my take away was that as long as you're eating something within a few hours before or after you're probably good, but we really don't know because there isn't enough information and there are limitations with the information that we do have. I love reading other's conjecture though so if anyone has any please share!
I'm aware RP thinks nutrient timing is important, but I'm a bit dubious that it actually is that important- even 10% important. If I were to eat exactly according to their macros but not timing for say 10 weeks, then jump back in time (and start at my starting weight) and eat the exact same food, doing the exact same workouts, but eat according to their timing would it make a significant difference? Again conjecture welcome.
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Fittreelol wrote: »Thank you for the links. Some of them weren't applicable to what I was after, and some I'll be investigating more thoroughly at a later time. All look interesting nonetheless. I've read http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23360586 (Nutrient timing revisited: is there a post-exercise anabolic window?) previously and my take away was that as long as you're eating something within a few hours before or after you're probably good, but we really don't know because there isn't enough information and there are limitations with the information that we do have. I love reading other's conjecture though so if anyone has any please share!
I'm aware RP thinks nutrient timing is important, but I'm a bit dubious that it actually is that important- even 10% important. If I were to eat exactly according to their macros but not timing for say 10 weeks, then jump back in time (and start at my starting weight) and eat the exact same food, doing the exact same workouts, but eat according to their timing would it make a significant difference? Again conjecture welcome.
The diet templates don't negate the findings from Brad or Alan. The paper you are referencing just discusses if you have to have nutrients within a short window after training like was once thought (the anabolic window). The aspect of nutrient timing from RP are more in the form of carb cycling as stated with focus on higher carb intake on higher activity days (less carbs on non or low intensity training days) with a majority of those carbs around your training and equally spacing out protein intake throughout the day. Again, the focused clientele are athletes which usually train many hours a day, so one of the other aspects you might be seeing is having an intra workout protein and carb shake to help continue to fuel long training sessions. Things like Gatorade would not have been invented if it had not been shown to help during long training or sporting competitions. They are just including protein to help keep the spacing of protein intake where you aren't going too long without intake.
The links referenced have some degree of influence to their (RP) utilization and priority to body composition, so don't discount some just based on their title or topic heading.
I myself am not following this, so I don't want you to think that I "have a dog in this hunt", I have just read and heard all of the information (including seeing the diet templates with associated documentation) that he (Dr. Israetel) and Eric Helms have done on the matter and without any correspondence between the two, they have come up with the same priority structure for body composition (based on evidence to date) which includes nutrient timing having a small impact, even more than supplements or food quality (GMO, Organic, etc...).
But the main takeaway is the priority in context to the intended audience. The intended audience are athletes whose job is to perform better than themselves or their competitor at the next competition. My job is a network engineer who likes to workout, so...not important to me, but they won't card me to show them proof otherwise if I want to buy their templates
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Great post again
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I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said.
Well actually I do:
The main thing you need to always keep at the top of the list is adherence.
For many people, nutrient timing micromanagement can create a slightly less enjoyable method.
Since the potential effects of nutrient timing are likely to only contribute a small amount to the big picture, I think there are many people for whom it's not likely worth it.
Having said that, I have coached people who are at a level of both performance and adherence where paying closer attention nutrient timing makes perfect sense.
If you don't think managing nutrient timing would negatively impact your adherence to your diet then I would generally recommend it in some fashion.
I would break the protein up into multiple doses per day probably 3 to 5, and I would primarily structural carbohydrate timing and dose around training performance and training volume needs.0 -
@SideSteel here is video from this morning with a bit heavier weight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck9Pv2oYuoU 0 -
How long should I expect "newbie gains" to last? I've been lifting with a guy twice a week since mid oct. Have definitely gotten stronger and I'm starting to see some definition (I am also the proud owner of a 2-pack!), but I've lost around 40# in that time too, so maybe I'm just finally able to see what's always been there. The weight I'm able to move has kinda stalled - I'm not sure if that's a result of my deficit, not working it hard enough, or the program that I'm on.
Monday: hiit, accessory work or functional movements
Thursdays: higher rep, lower weight lifts.
I run/walk 3-4 the other days and do yoga 1-2 nights a week.0 -
Sounds about right, 4-6 months is pretty normal for newbie gainz to skyrocket. You can also get a similar effect even as an established lifter when you first start doing a new lift -- I only added deadlifts after lifting for several years, and I was able to add a couple hundred pounds in just a couple months, though most of that gain was learning proper technique (which I still struggle with). Same principle would apply if tomorrow I tried doing Olympic cleans for the first time.0
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jmule24, I'm not an expert in bench pressing, but I do notice your left arm lifting faster than your right. This could be a strength imbalance; doing unilateral movements would help (DB bench press rather than BB for instance).0
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Sounds about right, 4-6 months is pretty normal for newbie gainz to skyrocket. You can also get a similar effect even as an established lifter when you first start doing a new lift -- I only added deadlifts after lifting for several years, and I was able to add a couple hundred pounds in just a couple months, though most of that gain was learning proper technique (which I still struggle with). Same principle would apply if tomorrow I tried doing Olympic cleans for the first time.
Thanks! So does that mean I should accept where I'm at until I'm done actively losing? Any way to make some kind of progress in a deficit? I guess I just don't know what I'm looking/shooting for.0 -
A coworker just told me he started jogging and is gaining muscle...from jogging...ha? Am I missing something?0
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I've been trying to wrap my head over his comment, he was so serious. My thought, he indicated that he lost 10 lbs therefore I'm assuming he lost the fat covering his muscles which are now visible, hence his theory that he gained muscle. And now time to move on - Happy Spring.0
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Thanks! So does that mean I should accept where I'm at until I'm done actively losing? Any way to make some kind of progress in a deficit? I guess I just don't know what I'm looking/shooting for.
By "progress" are you looking to make your muscles bigger during a deficit? Extremely difficult to accomplish, but possible. Are you trying to get stronger or lift heavier (NOT necessarily the same thing) during a deficit? Much more doable, especially if you're still in the glow of noobie gains and/or learning proper lifting technique.0 -
I've been trying to wrap my head over his comment, he was so serious. My thought, he indicated that he lost 10 lbs therefore I'm assuming he lost the fat covering his muscles which are now visible, hence his theory that he gained muscle. And now time to move on - Happy Spring.
This would be my guess.0 -
I don't understand the jogging thing, can someone please explain. It seems to me that moving weight through space should build muscle, even if the weight moving is body weight not body+extra weight. Why wouldn't there be muscle building from jogging?0
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tcunbeliever wrote: »I don't understand the jogging thing, can someone please explain. It seems to me that moving weight through space should build muscle, even if the weight moving is body weight not body+extra weight. Why wouldn't there be muscle building from jogging?
It depends on whether or not jogging represents an increase in training stimulus compared to what was previously being done.
It is also necessary to increase said training stimulus to further drive adaptations. In the context of weight lifting we do this by adding more resistance and increasing total workload.
In the context of jogging the same does not really occur aside from possibly in the very beginning with a sedentary individual.0 -
tcunbeliever wrote: »I don't understand the jogging thing, can someone please explain. It seems to me that moving weight through space should build muscle, even if the weight moving is body weight not body+extra weight. Why wouldn't there be muscle building from jogging?
Doing pullups or pushups will absolutely build muscle. But note the direction in motion: these are working against gravity. Jogging is working perpendicular to gravity, as in gravity pulls down while you jog sideways. While there is a small amount of pushing against gravity with every step taken, the effect is considerably smaller than when doing calisthenics. This is why, as side steel pointed out, there will be some small gain at first simply by starting to do ANY exercise after living a sedentary lifestyle, but not typically over the long haul.
Now sprinting is a different animal, since you are using explosive force to propel yourself forwards. Tons of muscle potential compared to a slower, steady pace. This is one of the reasons why Olympic sprinters have such huge muscles while marathoners are generally extremely lean. That plus caloric expenditure, of course.
(Note I said slower, steady above, but I did NOT say "easier"...anybody trying to keep up the pace of world-class marathoners would be hard-pressed to maintain it for more than a mile or two, let alone 26+. But comparing an elite marathon speed of 13 mph vs a gold-medal sprinter speed of 27 mph, you can see one speed is definitely slower than the other!)0 -
Can I submit one more dumb question for March or have it met my quota?
What is the difference between gaining strength and gaining muscle?0 -
Can I submit one more dumb question for March or have it met my quota?
What is the difference between gaining strength and gaining muscle?
Strength has a large neurological component as well as a technical component depending on how strength is measured.
You can get stronger by becoming more efficient.
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If you gain muscle, you will also gain strength from having more muscle fibers pulling together. But you can gain strength at any time; gaining muscle, maintaining muscle, even losing muscle mass, from a combination of using better lifting technique along with mind-muscle connection (the source of the majority of noob-gains).
Look at Bruce Li, one of the most famous martial artists and fitness buffs of all time. Barely cracking 130# soaking wet, he was stronger than many men twice his size.0 -
If you gain muscle, you will also gain strength from having more muscle fibers pulling together. But you can gain strength at any time; gaining muscle, maintaining muscle, even losing muscle mass, from a combination of using better lifting technique along with mind-muscle connection (the source of the majority of noob-gains).
Look at Bruce Li, one of the most famous martial artists and fitness buffs of all time. Barely cracking 130# soaking wet, he was stronger than many men twice his size.
Thanks, I guess I didn't think of it that way. Makes sense though!0 -
I didn't see a April post so I am posting up here. Hope that is okay.
I used to follow stronglifts 5x5. Stopped lifting 1 1/2 years due to pregnancy complications.
Now am unable to get to a gym now between work and an infant so I have bought adjustable dumbbells (up to 52.5lbs each) and a small bench for at my home. I do not have space for a rack or similar set up.
so far I have found these two workouts.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/rudy6.htm
https://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/dumbbell-only-home-or-gym-fullbody-workout.html
Is there anyone missing from these that I should include into my workout?1 -
sunflowerhippi wrote: »
Is there anyone missing from these that I should include into my workout?
I would add Bulgarian Split Leg Squats 1 day.
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_benjammin wrote: »sunflowerhippi wrote: »
Is there anyone missing from these that I should include into my workout?
I would add Bulgarian Split Leg Squats 1 day.
thanks.0 -
How long should I expect "newbie gains" to last? I've been lifting with a guy twice a week since mid oct. Have definitely gotten stronger and I'm starting to see some definition (I am also the proud owner of a 2-pack!), but I've lost around 40# in that time too, so maybe I'm just finally able to see what's always been there. The weight I'm able to move has kinda stalled - I'm not sure if that's a result of my deficit, not working it hard enough, or the program that I'm on.
Monday: hiit, accessory work or functional movements
Thursdays: higher rep, lower weight lifts.
I run/walk 3-4 the other days and do yoga 1-2 nights a week.
Curious on this. You lost 40 lbs in that time off the body.
Did your weight on the bar increase on squats and deadlift by at least 40 lb's?
With purely improvements in form - should be much more than that if viewed as total time period, so may want to look at the timing for just the last 20 lbs lost. Did bar weight go up 20 lbs during that time?
Volume may not be enough if really just 1 x weekly.0 -
How long should I expect "newbie gains" to last? I've been lifting with a guy twice a week since mid oct. Have definitely gotten stronger and I'm starting to see some definition (I am also the proud owner of a 2-pack!), but I've lost around 40# in that time too, so maybe I'm just finally able to see what's always been there. The weight I'm able to move has kinda stalled - I'm not sure if that's a result of my deficit, not working it hard enough, or the program that I'm on.
Monday: hiit, accessory work or functional movements
Thursdays: higher rep, lower weight lifts.
I run/walk 3-4 the other days and do yoga 1-2 nights a week.
Curious on this. You lost 40 lbs in that time off the body.
Did your weight on the bar increase on squats and deadlift by at least 40 lb's?
With purely improvements in form - should be much more than that if viewed as total time period, so may want to look at the timing for just the last 20 lbs lost. Did bar weight go up 20 lbs during that time?
Volume may not be enough if really just 1 x weekly.
Hmm. During the first 40# of weight loss, absolutely. It was much more. Are you saying that the weight loss is inversely related to lifting gains? IE, lose 20# on the scale, gain 20# on the bar? At some point I'd think the lines would cross and then level off...but maybe I'm wrong.
We've been doing something different lately. Something similar to a 5x5 program 2x/week and some accessory work or functional stuff here and there. I did hit a DL PR a couple of weeks ago, but I haven't tried with the squat. (My squat form sucks lately so I need to work on that first). Maybe shaking it up a bit has helped. I would love to get in a 3rd day, but my work schedule just doesn't allow it. At least I can run/walk whenever I can sneak away.
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Well, if you think about it, if you are doing body weight lifts (dead/squats), and there is X amount less on the body - there better be X amount more on the bar - or you lost strength.
There is many a person claiming they gained major muscle while they lost weight - and that little fact points out while they may see more muscle under less fat - they lost strength actually when they share the numbers - I've seen referenced losing 60-80 lbs and that much more was NOT put back on the bar, invaliding their claim.
But when starting out and merely improvements in form and CNS engagement cause increase in weight on bar - it's hard to judge.
This is nothing about the weight loss in relation to the lifting - purely about strength gains in relation to weight lost.
Just thinking that amount of volume isn't enough for beginner.2
This discussion has been closed.