Quick Question on TDEE -20%

beccib2

Hi All

Just a quick question please.

I am increasing from a VLCD to do TDEE -20%. My question is, do i need to work my way up to TDEE first and then come down 20%, or can i stop at my -20% figure?

Thanks in advance

husseycd

I'm no expert, but since it would freak me out to gain a bunch of weight during a reset, I'd work my way up slowly. I'm not sure if I ate a VLCD because I almost immediately found this method after I started tracking, but I increased slowly. I started at 1700 for a few weeks, went up to 1800 for a couple more. Crept up to 1900, had my RMR tested and got a bodymedia fit so I knew for sure and am now confidently eating--and losing--at 2000. I'm sure I'll eat over my calories today , but in another couple weeks I'll probably eat at my TDEE for a week or so and then drop it back down to 2000.

AnitraSoto

Since you are coming from a history of VLCD, you would most likely benefit from a full metabolism reset. Work your way up to your TDEE and stay there for 8 weeks, then start a modest 15% cut. The idea is that you want to eat at maintenance for a while and remind your metabolism of what it's true TDEE is. If you just go up to your cut, then you risk your metabolism "thinking" that your cut is your TDEE. Push your calories up to TDEE, stay there for 8 weeks, or until your weight fluctuations stop, and then take your 10 - 15% cut.

Also, don't forget to take a "diet break" and eat at TDEE for a week or so every couple of months, just to "remind" your body of what your true TDEE is :-)

samcat2000

what is VLCD? thanks!

skbarton

what is VLCD? thanks!

Very Low Calorie Diet. Typically any diet that has you eating below your BMR.

heybales

Hi All

Just a quick question please.

I am increasing from a VLCD to do TDEE -20%. My question is, do i need to work my way up to TDEE first and then come down 20%, or can i stop at my -20% figure?

Thanks in advance

Ditto's to advice given.

Another point, depending on how long you were on that VLCD and how much muscle mass you lost, your BMR and potential TDEE will be lower than estimated if you use the wrong BMR value as basis for the math.

Mifflin and Harris BMR's are assuming a certain level of fat to LBM ratio, which when overweight you automatically don't have, and if you lost muscle mass, you really don't have.

So you need to start the math with Katch BMR, which requires a bodyfat % at least about 5% accurate.

You are likely 200-400 calories below the other BMR/TDEE estimates. So a reset would have you not only eating above your rising metabolism, but even when it's really come up, still over it's max based on your actual current LBM.

And do weigh on valid days weekly, so you can tell the difference between fast water weight gains, and slow and steady gains showing your metabolism hasn't come up yet.

pbsue

HI, I'm jumping in hoping for clarification here that I can apply to my situation.:

So you need to start the math with Katch BMR, which requires a bodyfat % at least about 5% accurate. [I had a BOD POD body fat percentage test and just figured my BMR as you suggested using Katch-Mcardle and it is 100 calories lower than the one I did with Harris-Benedict.]

You are likely 200-400 calories below the other BMR/TDEE estimates. So a reset would have you not only eating above your rising metabolism, but even when it's really come up, still over it's max based on your actual current LBM. [So, assuming I can figure my TDEE accurately, by subtracting 100 calories from the Harris-Benedict Moderately Active category, then choose a 15 - 20 % deficit, I should lose weight. OR, I need a reset. Which may be true from a life of off and on low calorie and infrequent eating. That idea still feaks me out.]

And do weigh on valid days weekly, so you can tell the difference between fast water weight gains, and slow and steady gains showing your metabolism hasn't come up yet. [What is a valid day?]

Thanks!

heybales

HI, I'm jumping in hoping for clarification here that I can apply to my situation.:

So you need to start the math with Katch BMR, which requires a bodyfat % at least about 5% accurate. [I had a BOD POD body fat percentage test and just figured my BMR as you suggested using Katch-Mcardle and it is 100 calories lower than the one I did with Harris-Benedict.]

You are likely 200-400 calories below the other BMR/TDEE estimates. So a reset would have you not only eating above your rising metabolism, but even when it's really come up, still over it's max based on your actual current LBM. [So, assuming I can figure my TDEE accurately, by subtracting 100 calories from the Harris-Benedict Moderately Active category, then choose a 15 - 20 % deficit, I should lose weight. OR, I need a reset. Which may be true from a life of off and on low calorie and infrequent eating. That idea still feaks me out.]

And do weigh on valid days weekly, so you can tell the difference between fast water weight gains, and slow and steady gains showing your metabolism hasn't come up yet. [What is a valid day?]

Thanks!

That's great, that means you have about avg ratio of fat to non-fat mass, since it's only about 100 lower, and that's probably due to Harris being inflated when overweight.

At least you aren't starting out with a whole lot less muscle mass than you could have.

Remember the math, an activity factor is multiplied by the BMR. Depending on activity level, you could be 155 cal inflated looking at TDEE.

Use this for rough estimate, but not as rough as 5 levels.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1018770-better-rough-tdee-estimate-than-5-level-chart

It freaks you out to eat only at maintenance?
You should go back to some Food Diary days before you joined and when not on a diet, and log an honest typical day of eating, as best as your can remember.

Now how bad does the maintenance figure look?

Valid weigh-in day - morning after rest day eating normal sodium levels not still sore from last lifting workout.

That takes care of fluctuations from exercise and dehydrated, or glucose stores depleted and false weight loss, or eating high sodium or retaining water from lifting and false weight gain.

pbsue

Thanks for all the info and your dedicated participation. I found your spreadsheet and am completing the Future You tab.

I love the daily spot check and the weekly spot check looks helpful too. I was wishing MFP had a running weekly calories vs BMR data output.

One question: What is the Starting BMR data field in the weekly spot check?

It appears from the formula that it does a lot of math and then adds 370. Currently, I don't have anything completed in that table and the Starting BMR and Ending BMR are 370. The Net above BMR avg is -370.

Is that the way it should be to start out?

heybales

Thanks for all the info and your dedicated participation. I found your spreadsheet and am completing the Future You tab.

I love the daily spot check and the weekly spot check looks helpful too. I was wishing MFP had a running weekly calories vs BMR data output.

One question: What is the Starting BMR data field in the weekly spot check?

It appears from the formula that it does a lot of math and then adds 370. Currently, I don't have anything completed in that table and the Starting BMR and Ending BMR are 370. The Net above BMR avg is -370.

Is that the way it should be to start out?

I'd suggest skip that tab as too involved now.
Just fill in the Simple Setup tab, and near bottom right is your Future You results.
Only thing to watch for is the instructions as to what to change in MFP, use that value for Future TDEG.

Those 2 tables though are the reasons why I keep the tab in there, useful. (though both need corrections, because you entering raw calorie burns includes time/calories already accounted for, in reality they must be removed, like the MFP Tweak tab does when you enter in calories burned and time).
The starting BMR will be calculated based on weight entered.
If no weight entered and that 370 shows up, you have BF% entered in stats then.
It's merely the result of math done on no weight in the formula. It's 721 if no BF% or weight entered.

lenkearney

Since you are coming from a history of VLCD, you would most likely benefit from a full metabolism reset. Work your way up to your TDEE and stay there for 8 weeks, then start a modest 15% cut. The idea is that you want to eat at maintenance for a while and remind your metabolism of what it's true TDEE is. If you just go up to your cut, then you risk your metabolism "thinking" that your cut is your TDEE. Push your calories up to TDEE, stay there for 8 weeks, or until your weight fluctuations stop, and then take your 10 - 15% cut.

Also, don't forget to take a "diet break" and eat at TDEE for a week or so every couple of months, just to "remind" your body of what your true TDEE is :-)

"full metabolism reset" - can you help me understand that? I am not losing- am trying to make sure I log everything. looked at a net calorie report and appears I average under 1500 net, with a BMR of 1878. Am I screwing myself?

Len

heybales

"full metabolism reset" - can you help me understand that? I am not losing- am trying to make sure I log everything. looked at a net calorie report and appears I average under 1500 net, with a BMR of 1878. Am I screwing myself?

Len

As a man, not as bad, you have some hormones on your side for retaining muscle mass at least, or might say not losing it as fast. But it doesn't mean the metabolism still can't lower to adapt to you eating level, and you won't lose some muscle mass.

So just look at that, your body, if fed enough, would like to expend estimated 1878 calories just taking care of basic cell functions if you slept all day. Literally energy spent on the cells, of course coming from the cells too.

How many calories you burn on your best workout?
Remove out the calories you would have burned resting anyway, now is it anywhere near that number?

Don't risk in essence lowering it by under-eating - losing free calorie burn.

Use spreadsheet link several posts up to see your figures based on bodyfat and what would be reasonable deficit.
And lift if possible as main exercise focus.

tiumommy2

Question: How does one factor in wine/alcohol? Should we eat our BMR/TDEE calories in food or do we account a glass of wine in that total, too? So, If my calories are 1500/day and I have say 2 glasses of wine, should I eat 1300 (estimating a glass of wine is 100 calories)? Or make sure I eat 1500 calories & not account the wine in the total? Is that confusing??

heybales

Question: How does one factor in wine/alcohol? Should we eat our BMR/TDEE calories in food or do we account a glass of wine in that total, too? So, If my calories are 1500/day and I have say 2 glasses of wine, should I eat 1300 (estimating a glass of wine is 100 calories)? Or make sure I eat 1500 calories & not account the wine in the total? Is that confusing??

Well, it has calories, look it up in the food diary.

Don't estimate, measure it a few times so you know how much you are drinking, and look it up. Yes it counts.

tiumommy2

Thanks, Heybales!