Does anyone do intermittent fasting with LCHF?
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Whew.
That's more than finding a long-term diet to keep your BG down - that's reacting to ordinary, healthier meals like a nondiabetic teen in good shape who doesn't drink or smoke.
Should we T2Ds all be asking or doctors for regular insulin tests?
Kudos on your success to date!
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Thanks!
I've read/watched quite a bit of Dr. Fung's material - I found quite a few useful tidbits. I would have been absolutely thrilled if he had focused on peer-reviewed research rather than promoting his clinic (details of his methods are not available unless you are a paying customer). But his material at least pointed me to research that gave me the guidelines I needed to determine the minimum fasting time that would be useful for what I wanted to accomplish.
I don't think I've run across Dr. Hallberg before, but in the video you linked to, she seriously mischaracterizes Dr. Taylor's study. (I get grumpy enough with people misrepresenting the facts that I probably won't seek out anything else by Dr. Hallberg
)
Trying to sort out services hype, from research, from unrealistic extension of a small study to general principles has been quite frustrating!0 -
I've read/watched quite a bit of Dr. Fung's material - I found quite a few useful tidbits. I would have been absolutely thrilled if he had focused on peer-reviewed research rather than promoting his clinic (details of his methods are not available unless you are a paying customer). But his material at least pointed me to research that gave me the guidelines I needed to determine the minimum fasting time that would be useful for what I wanted to accomplish.
I don't think I've run across Dr. Hallberg before, but in the video you linked to, she seriously mischaracterizes Dr. Taylor's study. (I get grumpy enough with people misrepresenting the facts that I probably won't seek out anything else by Dr. Hallberg)
Trying to sort out services hype, from research, from unrealistic extension of a small study to general principles has been quite frustrating!
I do hope you'll be willing to share the cream you skim off all the big pots of information out there! (Utter neophytes like me have a hard enough time just telling milk jugs from chamber pots.)
Q - Is the misreading of Taylor's work have consequences significant enough to affect the logic of Hallberg's reasoning and recommendations?
Thanks!
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I've read/watched quite a bit of Dr. Fung's material - I found quite a few useful tidbits. I would have been absolutely thrilled if he had focused on peer-reviewed research rather than promoting his clinic (details of his methods are not available unless you are a paying customer). But his material at least pointed me to research that gave me the guidelines I needed to determine the minimum fasting time that would be useful for what I wanted to accomplish.
I don't think I've run across Dr. Hallberg before, but in the video you linked to, she seriously mischaracterizes Dr. Taylor's study. (I get grumpy enough with people misrepresenting the facts that I probably won't seek out anything else by Dr. Hallberg)
Trying to sort out services hype, from research, from unrealistic extension of a small study to general principles has been quite frustrating!
I do hope you'll be willing to share the cream you skim off all the big pots of information out there! (Utter neophytes like me have a hard enough time just telling milk jugs from chamber pots.)
Q - Is the misreading of Taylor's work have consequences significant enough to affect the logic of Hallberg's reasoning and recommendations?
Thanks!
Hallberg's recommendations about low carb for management of diabetes are fine - and an excellent starting point.
Where she goes off the rails is treating what Dr. Taylor was studying as a management plan, rather than a short term treatment (8 weeks) to induce long term remission. Dr. Taylor was not recommending a 600 calorie diet to manage diabetes. He was using it to mimic the post-bariatric surgery which induced remission (or cured) 97% of the people in the group studied. She derisively dismisses it because you can't stay on a 600 calorie diet forever - and she says that everyone gained all the weight back right away. Staying on a 600 calorie diet was NEVER something suggested by Dr. Taylor - the point was to follow that diet for the period of time that it took for a similar diet to induce remission (or cure) diabetes. After that point you would be able to return to a "normal" eating regime (with about 30% of your calories coming from carbs). 100% of the patients went into remission (based on extensive studies that established that their BG metabolism was functioning normally). The study was not planned with long-term follow-up for the first group, but those they were able to follow up on had minimal weight regains and remained in remission for (at least) 3 months. The second study (which include people with longer duration diabetes) was not as successful in inducing remission (roughly 50%), but they were followed for 6 months. Every person in whom remission was induced remained in remission at the end of 6 months, with no dietary restriction other than keeping their calorie intake at about 2/3 of their pre-treatment level - and one additional person went into remission after the end of the very low calorie diet. So comparing dietary management of blood glucose to remission is comparing apples to oranges.
In addition, the logic that it is low carb that was the magic in Dr. Taylor's study was flawed. If that was the case, the moment they returned to a higher carb diet, they would have exhibited an abnormal BG response to carbs - and they didn't - and had not for the 6 months following the end of the diet.
If my attempt to induce remission fails, I'll return to eating consistently with her advice. But when I catch someone comparing apples and oranges and pretending they are both apples I never rely on anything else they say, without extensive fact checking.
I'm too tired to clearly articulate what I gleaned from Dr. Fung tonight - I'll try to summarize it (and what I've pulled together from other sources) another day.
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Whew.
That's more than finding a long-term diet to keep your BG down - that's reacting to ordinary, healthier meals like a nondiabetic teen in good shape who doesn't drink or smoke.
Should we T2Ds all be asking or doctors for regular insulin tests?
Kudos on your success to date!
That's what I'm going for! We'll see if I get there.
I did eat a 19 carb meal today. Twenty has been about my limit on a low carb diet- and that usually bumps me up to ~ 130). I topped out at 104. So, so far I am responding mostly as I hoped I would.
I'm using a lot of food from Michael Mosley's 8-week blood sugar diet (google search for Michael Mosley daily mail - there is a week-long series of articles that includes quite a few (really yummy) recipes). Many of those meals are higher carb than I've been eating, but they are theoretically carbs that are (long term) helpful for control of blood glucose - so I'm cautiously eating slightly higher carbs as part of my grand experiment.
As far as asking for insulin tests - I doubt you'd find a doctor willing to do them (or an insurance company willing to foot the bill). They were part of the study because they are a more accurate way of evaluating status for research purposes - not so much for treatment of ordinary diabetes. (They also did MRIs of liver and pancreas to demonstrate the decrease in fat in these organs, which also seems to be key to remission - tests that would be excessive outside of a study.)0 -
(details of his methods are not available unless you are a paying customer)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140708031602/http://intensivedietarymanagement.com/patient-resources/
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I use to fast back in the 80s with my mother. I think 3 days was the most I could go without killing someone. She could go 5 days (under a doctor's supervision) but was miserable most of the time. It was very difficult for me to fast. I was always hungry and edgy. Though I don't remember being tired (which was an improvement over the low calorie diets).
Before LCHF, I use to eat just one meal a day. So, in a way that was fasting. But I still gained 45 pounds when I quit smoking and my hubby went into the hospital (I still didn't smoke though). I find full day fasting to be very uncomfortable for me.
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(details of his methods are not available unless you are a paying customer)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140708031602/http://intensivedietarymanagement.com/patient-resources/
Generalities are there. ("The length of time you fast will be determined on an individual basis with yourself and the team, including the physician. This typically involves fasting period of 24 to 36 hours, and is usually done on alternate days or 3 days per week. Generally, the longer you fast for, the quicker your results in terms of weight loss and diabetic improvement. " Details are not.
I've been through most of the material he makes publicly available - and it is all the same generalities: Fasting is good. Do some - and, oh, by the way, I've cured these people by some magical formula that I will reveal only if you pay me." He doesn't say it that crassly, but he has chosen not to public peer-reviewed papers documenting even case studies of his work. I am looking for solid documentation about what he has implemented that works, and can be replicated.0 -
I started 16:8 this week and today added Unsweetened tea to the mix and am going to shoot for oneish meal a day. I say oneish because on my TRX days I can drop 50 points on 25 minutes and I'm trying to balance my am dose of Metformin so I can avoid going hypoglycemic yet keep a reasonable BS level while fasting.
Before I lost 40lbs my BS would always climb in the am until I had some protein. I'm passed that now but facing these other challenges.0 -
I started 16:8 this week and today added Unsweetened tea to the mix and am going to shoot for oneish meal a day. I say oneish because on my TRX days I can drop 50 points on 25 minutes and I'm trying to balance my am dose of Metformin so I can avoid going hypoglycemic yet keep a reasonable BS level while fasting.
Before I lost 40lbs my BS would always climb in the am until I had some protein. I'm passed that now but facing these other challenges.
How does your Metformin dose affect your hypoglycemia?
Good luck going forward!0 -
I've been through most of the material he makes publicly available - and it is all the same generalities: Fasting is good. Do some - and, oh, by the way, I've cured these people by some magical formula that I will reveal only if you pay me." He doesn't say it that crassly, but he has chosen not to public peer-reviewed papers documenting even case studies of his work. I am looking for solid documentation about what he has implemented that works, and can be replicated.
I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Are you wanting stuff like "fast for 1272 minutes, then consume 13.6 ounces of bone broth made from 3 ox tails and 1 pig hock, simmered for 22-1/2 hours in a stainless steel pot with a glass lid"?
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I started 16:8 this week and today added Unsweetened tea to the mix and am going to shoot for oneish meal a day. I say oneish because on my TRX days I can drop 50 points on 25 minutes and I'm trying to balance my am dose of Metformin so I can avoid going hypoglycemic yet keep a reasonable BS level while fasting.
Before I lost 40lbs my BS would always climb in the am until I had some protein. I'm passed that now but facing these other challenges.
How does your Metformin dose affect your hypoglycemia?
Good luck going forward!
Thanks. Before the 40 lb weight loss I was on 1000mg x 2 each day. Dropped to 850 x 2 when I started seeing < 100 BS in the am.
The hypoglycemia had never been an issue until I started TRX. Sadly I never really understood how Metformin stopped the liver from dumping glucose, probably because my BS never seemed to go too low.
After experiencing a few of those drops I finally learned why. So I have reduced my am dose to 425 to help prevent the hypoglycemia. For the most part it has worked. Yesterday I grabbed a few Strawberries and Raspberries when it felt too low. My pre-exercise BS was 102 an hour after eating and ended up at 76 when I finished.0 -
I've been through most of the material he makes publicly available - and it is all the same generalities: Fasting is good. Do some - and, oh, by the way, I've cured these people by some magical formula that I will reveal only if you pay me." He doesn't say it that crassly, but he has chosen not to public peer-reviewed papers documenting even case studies of his work. I am looking for solid documentation about what he has implemented that works, and can be replicated.
I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Are you wanting stuff like "fast for 1272 minutes, then consume 13.6 ounces of bone broth made from 3 ox tails and 1 pig hock, simmered for 22-1/2 hours in a stainless steel pot with a glass lid"?
Nope. He has particular fasting patterns he has used that he claims have been successful in inducing remission. He has not disclosed those. He's hinted enough to be clear that there are fasting patterns that have successfully induced remission - and patterns that have not. I am looking for the details about the fasting patterns he claims have worked to induce remission - preferably with at least case studies documenting the claims that include the scientific theory that (at least on a thought level) that distinguishes between what works and what doesn't.
From what he has said, I've been able to trace back to the research that sets a minimum effective fasting period at 16-18 hours, for what I want to accomplish, but that is the most detail I've been able to find that is backed by any scientifically rigorous thinking or research. That detail didn't come directly from him, it came from a study he referenced that I retrieved and read.
You may not be interested in that kind of rigor - but it is that level of rigor as to medical matters that has - literally - saved my child's life.0 -
There's a difference between using monitoring as a feedback mechanism for change & diving into the theory, mastering it, and taking it the next step. The latter is what I've done successfully several times in my own family - and what I hope to do here. That's why I'm disappointed that Dr. Taylor is testing one thing & theorizing something very different - and that Dr. Fung is holding what he says has induced remission behind a proprietary pay wall. For my purposes, my meter is just fine to keep me in management mode. If doesn't work for figuring out what I need to do to have the best chance of remission.0
