Case study for nutritional ketosis
wanderinjack
Posts: 248 Member
I totally nerd out in this stuff. It's amazing what keto athletes are doing.
http://youtu.be/_evJd_iZZzs
http://youtu.be/_evJd_iZZzs 3
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Phinney is the best! I love how he debunked Fung on protein catabolism during fasting. I get tired of doing that by myself.
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I gave his book to a good friend of who WAS a vegetarian and bonking on long bike ride....he is no longer a vegetarian.2
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Thanks for the link.0
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Nice video, thanks for posting. Cool that his favorite mountain happens to be about an hour drive from my house. I'll be keeping my eye out for Phinney.0
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Phinney is the best! I love how he debunked Fung on protein catabolism during fasting. I get tired of doing that by myself.
@wabmester. I love you, man, but I wonder on what basis you're so convinced fasting is catabolic for muscle fibers?
Phinney didn't "debunk" Fung in that video. He merely said he disagreed on the conclusion. I didn't see any citation on the data. Do you know which study he refers to?
Anyway. It's ok if we disagree on the matter of IF and the fate of muscle fibers. I will give you some food for thought:
Lowcarb diets reduce water weight. Fasting reduces water weight.
Please take note that Phinney says "lean body mass". But...drumroll...LBM is EVERYTHING except fat. Even the best current body comp scan available, DEXA, can't separate blood and glycogen from pure muscle fiber.
Which would indicate that any study that concludes "loss of muscle fiber doing lowcarb or fasting" based on current measuring techniques are highly inaccurate concerning the actual change in volume of MUSCLE FIBER. Hell, even bones, connective tissue, organs, hair etc is counted as LBM. I think someone at some point forgot that water weight is included when measuring LBM...mistaking a lower LBM for muscle fiber.
No wonder why there are so inconsistent studies on this particular subject and IF. Without having seen the study Phinney talks about, I'd say he might have spoken hastily here. I still regard him highly, though.
Ofc, if someone stops eating altogether for a very long period of time, the body will eventually start breaking down muscle.
But if the body was so stupid it broke down muscles and organs before bodyfat...how could the human species survive through days, even weeks with very little food? And I would venture to guess that many wars have been fought without the soldier getting fed 3 times per day.
I'm not saying war is healthy. The French under Bonaparte and later the Germans under Hitler starved and froze to death after months...years pushing ever further into the vast land of Russia. They did survive surprisingly long, though.
That the body would break down muscle fiber so easily defies all logic. It's very expensive to build and requires the right hormonal context and a lot of work. It makes no sense the body would start tearing down muscle fibers just because you don't eat breakfast.
Anyway, there's plenty of anecdotes about people not only getting ripped, but building more muscle while doing IF. I would think those people would stop doing IF if it was so catabolic to muscle fiber, since getting ripped and yoked is what they want. Meaning they'd abandon the IF regime if it didn't give results.
Here's a few samples for ya:
Hugh Jackman did IF 16:8 preparing for role of Wolverine. 1 min video.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yDwwuXBDMOA
Article with Jackman giving details about his jacking up regime (pun intended!) He says the muscleman "The Rock" recommended doing IF.
http://www.examiner.com/article/hugh-jackman-talks-wolverine-diet-splurge-intermittent-fasting
The most active moderators on ketogains do keto and IF together.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains
Here's an in depth vid with darthluiggi from ketogains:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNFggYwVR2U
https://www.facebook.com/groups/ketogains/
Then there's Martin Berkhan, the poster boy for IF.
http://www.leangains.com/
Image of Berkhan from google:
https://www.google.no/imgres?imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LgYLzX_SaGg/UL-bwOAvbmI/AAAAAAAABcU/88N0gHjNAcE/s1600/MartinBerkhan.png&imgrefurl=http://matorsolus.blogspot.com/2012_12_01_archive.html&docid=cPh0dFuKEO1O6M&tbnid=cEFtNHJtZ54JhM:&w=617&h=386&client=ms-android-samsung&bih=559&biw=360&ved=0ahUKEwiFgOjMsJHMAhVMXSwKHRMeAxoQxiAIBigC&iact=c&ictx=1
There's a whole lil tribe copying his methods.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leangains
...and of course Lyle McDonald.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/?s=Intermittent+Fasting&submit=Search
I've done IF for over 1.5 years. I'd say I've gained a bit of muscle, despite very little dedicated strength training, only lots of other training. So in my personal experience, IF is not catabolic to muscle in any noticeable way.
Getting used to fasting takes some adjustments. Furthermore it's not to everyone's liking. That's OK. We can agree to disagree about IF and it's effects
Edit: A few minor changes plus a video.
TL;DR. LBM count includes water weight. Diets that shed water will show loss of LBM. It doesn't necessarily mean loss of MUSCLE FIBER.
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Foamroller wrote: »I didn't see any citation on the data. Do you know which study he refers to?
Pretty sure he's referring to the classic study "Starvation in Man" by Cahill. There's no question that fasting is catabolic if you believe that study, and it was beautifully done.0 -
If @FIT_Goat sees this, Phinney discusses Stefansson starting at about 21 minutes into the video. He discusses some information about his cause of death that I've never seen published -- apparently directly from a communication from Stefansson's physician to Phinney.
Well, I was aware that he had a stroke. I am not sure of the significance of the brain lesions. I think the Bear addressed this at one point, attributing it to Stefansson's switching back and forth throughout his life away from meat only. I don't know enough to draw any conclusions. I would be more interested in knowing if the Masai men or other meat-only cultures have higher incidents of it.0 -
Foamroller wrote: »I didn't see any citation on the data. Do you know which study he refers to?
Pretty sure he's referring to the classic study "Starvation in Man" by Cahill. There's no question that fasting is catabolic if you believe that study, and it was beautifully done.
Well, it was a study of starvation, then catabolism of all tissues will occur at some point during a prolonged starvation.
Intermittent fasting is something else, IMO. I take great care to get enough protein. You can't really compare the two.
I don't know how they measured the loss of muscle fiber in the Cahill study. Since science still can't differ between blood, glycogen and muscle fiber...45 years later, I'll hold my view that it was probably less water weight. You know that often people in ketogains complain they feel "flat", right? ...which is less water weight.
I'll look into the study sometime, now it's getting late
Edit: And also. The whole carbing up pre contest has become a field of it's own. They do it to buff up their muscles.0 -
If @FIT_Goat sees this, Phinney discusses Stefansson starting at about 21 minutes into the video. He discusses some information about his cause of death that I've never seen published -- apparently directly from a communication from Stefansson's physician to Phinney.
Well, I was aware that he had a stroke. I am not sure of the significance of the brain lesions. I think the Bear addressed this at one point, attributing it to Stefansson's switching back and forth throughout his life away from meat only. I don't know enough to draw any conclusions. I would be more interested in knowing if the Masai men or other meat-only cultures have higher incidents of it.
I don't think it was necessarily an implication of his diet. I just thought it was cool that Phinney had such a close association with the guy. Stefansson apparently had multiple strokes, starting in his early 70's. His autopsy apparently found signs of brain aneurysms, but his arteries were clear.0 -
Foamroller wrote: »Well, it was a study of starvation, then catabolism of all tissues will occur at some point during a prolonged starvation.
As Phinney mentioned, the protein losses are the greatest in the beginning and then they taper off after several days. He also mentioned an unpublished study that I would love to see.
Basically, Cahill put multiple catheters in his patients and monitored both venous and arterial metabolites as well as waste products. Really a fabulous study that left nothing to interpretation. As Phinney mentioned, there's no way it could be reproduced today due to ethical concerns.0 -
If @FIT_Goat sees this, Phinney discusses Stefansson starting at about 21 minutes into the video. He discusses some information about his cause of death that I've never seen published -- apparently directly from a communication from Stefansson's physician to Phinney.
Well, I was aware that he had a stroke. I am not sure of the significance of the brain lesions. I think the Bear addressed this at one point, attributing it to Stefansson's switching back and forth throughout his life away from meat only. I don't know enough to draw any conclusions. I would be more interested in knowing if the Masai men or other meat-only cultures have higher incidents of it.
I don't think it was necessarily an implication of his diet. I just thought it was cool that Phinney had such a close association with the guy. Stefansson apparently had multiple strokes, starting in his early 70's. His autopsy apparently found signs of brain aneurysms, but his arteries were clear.
He probably did. I don't know if I would go as far as Bear did and completely blame it on his eating bread and sweets from time to time. I just think we don't know. I do believe that meat only is healthy, that doesn't mean I believe it is impossible to have heart attacks, stroke, aneurysms, etc. while eating like this. I hope that eating like this reduces the chances. I believe it reduces inflammation and several of the risk factors, but we're all going to die at the end of this journey. Maybe eating this way will give me a little extra time, maybe it won't. It might even shorten my life (although I doubt that). What I can be sure of is that I will feel better and healthier while I am alive.
Isn't high blood pressure one of the biggest warning signs for stoke and aneurysms? If that is true, then my risk has decreased, a small amount.1
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