Keto-Karnivores vs. Fiber
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Sorry, I would have posted the link but the website requires 1 to create a username & login...I used quotation marks too; I am in no way plagiarizing (I just wanted to share an article with content many on this forum find interesting).
The science of feces is just so mysterious & full of potential for treating/prophylaxis against infectious disease. Yes, the jury isn't quite out of microbiome flora (not even close). Fiber containing food is the bane for those with IBS, Crohn's, Ulcerative colitits, etc.; however, many of these people do supplement with various species of bacteria (VSL#3, lactobacillus rhamnosus GG, Bifidobacter).
I will say, I had a hell of a time trying to get back to a vegetable dominant keto diet from previously being a keto-karnivore...mainly not being able to stomach vegetables I previously had no problems with. Diet is now loaded with plenty of artichokes (inulin/prebiotic source), cabbage, kale, asparagus, etc.
The whole fiber isn't necessary keto debate brings me back to the whole Eskimo diet paradox with cardiovascular disease...always good for discussion against the conventional "eat vegetables (& fruit) because they are 'good' for you" (no rhyme or reason; veganism does not proved non-animal diets are better, these groups of people are biased for being significantly more orthorexic/health obsessed vs. your SAD dieter)1 -
V, here's a link that doesn't require a login. PDF available, too.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apt.13248/full4 -
Sorry, I would have posted the link but the website requires 1 to create a username & login...I used quotation marks too; I am in no way plagiarizing (I just wanted to share an article with content many on this forum find interesting).
The science of feces is just so mysterious & full of potential for treating/prophylaxis against infectious disease. Yes, the jury isn't quite out of microbiome flora (not even close). Fiber containing food is the bane for those with IBS, Crohn's, Ulcerative colitits, etc.; however, many of these people do supplement with various species of bacteria (VSL#3, lactobacillus rhamnosus GG, Bifidobacter).
I will say, I had a hell of a time trying to get back to a vegetable dominant keto diet from previously being a keto-karnivore...mainly not being able to stomach vegetables I previously had no problems with. Diet is now loaded with plenty of artichokes (inulin/prebiotic source), cabbage, kale, asparagus, etc.
The whole fiber isn't necessary keto debate brings me back to the whole Eskimo diet paradox with cardiovascular disease...always good for discussion against the conventional "eat vegetables (& fruit) because they are 'good' for you" (no rhyme or reason; veganism does not proved non-animal diets are better, these groups of people are biased for being significantly more orthorexic/health obsessed vs. your SAD dieter)
Here's the thing, I'll bet all those remote cultures that ate meat only and veggie only ~ all have one BIG thing in common ~ they probably were:
1) Vaginal born
2) Breast fed
3) Had ample exposure to the earth/dirt
4) Were never exposed to modern day antibiotics, fluoride, iodine, chlorinated water, etc
5) Were not exposed to all the environmental chemicals we do in America
6) Didn't use deodorants, bathe all the time, use all the processed lotions, hair care, etc.
7) Never given food sprayed with Roundup, herbicides, pesticides, chemical fertilizers
8) Never ate GMO foods
9) Never ate all the sugar we do
10) Never ate all the processed foods we do.
The scientists say when studying the poop of tribes of people in the Amazon rain forest, that they have roughly twice the variety of gut microbes/diversity that Americans have. And Americans are getting worse, not better.
So its hard to say how many species in our gut are now "extinct" and never to come back and therefore, we may never be able to get back to "normal".
I think that diets like Keto and carnivore "control" the remaining gut imbalance. But you gut isn't normal. So to go back to eating as we did BEFORE keto/BEFORE-carnivore" will result in weight gain and/or bad health. In other words, we are FUBAR'ed.
Ask anyone here, if they start eating carbs, fruits, or other "wholesome" foods ~ if they "fall of the wagon" and immediately start gaining weight and feeling badly.
Ask @FIT_Goat if he starts eating fruits and veggies ~ if bad things happen to him also. Probably. So, his gut flora is damaged also...we're all in the same boat. Its Keto for the rest of our lives until someone figures out how to change our gut microbiota to "pre-damaged" era.
Dan3 -
Re eskimo argument. People tend to forget the indigenous people also eat a lot of organ meats, which have all the nutrition the body needs. As demonstrated per Stefansson during his voluntary "metabolic chamber".
It's unscientific to take the results of one protocol and extrapolate that to another protocol.
Interestingly, the English guy who fought back brain cancer, Andrew Scarborough, not only went zero carb, but he also started having organ meats. In the video he said it was due to nutrients.
@DittoDan. I agree with your hazard list. I must admit I never payed a lot of attention to the whole pesticide thing. But I have second thoughts now. This guy (17mins) talks about how glyphosate (Round Up) binds to metals. And that because of this we might not only be deficient in compounds, but also how actually folding the right protein molecules might be disturbed. He also does a longer talk on the American College of Nutrition, which was interesting.
So how does this affect meativores? Well...I think we all can agree that many in this group firsthandedly experience how what we eat impacts who we are. How would that be any different for the livestock that's been pumped with a whole cocktail of antibiotics, insulin (for rapid growth) and unknown proprietary substances ?1 -
@Foamroller, can't speak for the other 'carnivores', but I eat organic organs at least twice weekly (although I gotta work on variety, I only know how to cook chicken liver). I'm also incorporating seafood and fish into the diet. I think a nose-to-tail eating approach is the most beneficial one to begin with, especially if you're going to limit the sources of vitamins and minerals in your diet.3
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Ask @FIT_Goat if he starts eating fruits and veggies ~ if bad things happen to him also. Probably. So, his gut flora is damaged also...we're all in the same boat. Its Keto for the rest of our lives until someone figures out how to change our gut microbiota to "pre-damaged" era.
My gut got a lot better when I stopped eating those things. It returns to where it was when I go back. It isn't worse than it was.
For the record, I was c-section birth and had milk allergies as a baby (yes I should have known better than to keep eating it) that prevented breast feeding. So, there is that.
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It is a misrepresentation of Stefansson to imply that he believed consuming organs was necessary or beneficial. He frequently said just the opposite and stressed that organ meats were typically fed to the dogs and not consumed by the humans. They [the natives he lived with and reported on] would usually eat the organs only when food was very short, usually right before they started eating the dogs because everything else had run out.
Eating nose to tail is not required to remain in pefect health. It probably won't hurt you and the unpopular stuff may be cheaper and this healthier for your wallet.1 -
@FIT_Goat. It might be you're right concerning Stefansson. I was taking from memory watching Stephen Phinney's lectures and reading his book.
But, I think that you slalom your rhetoric to what you find suitable ad hoc. I have noticed on several occasions that when you don't agree with something, you often shoot it down saying things along the lines of "there's no evidence...".I skimmed through this, but haven't looked into it in detail. In truth, we all know how I am going to default on this type of thing. A lot of the conclusions seem to be based on the belief that eating lots of fiber, vegetables, and fruit is healthy, therefore the effects of that diet on the gut biome are the desirable ones. Any changes from those effects are considered harmful. I don't know that this is a valid conclusion. It reminds me of the cholesterol studies.
We really don't know what a healthy biome means. There could even be a variety of healthy biomes, different ones for different diets.
But when it suits you, you have a tendency to refer to your own N=1 as evidence of your view.Ask @FIT_Goat if he starts eating fruits and veggies ~ if bad things happen to him also. Probably. So, his gut flora is damaged also...we're all in the same boat. Its Keto for the rest of our lives until someone figures out how to change our gut microbiota to "pre-damaged" era.
My gut got a lot better when I stopped eating those things. It returns to where it was when I go back. It isn't worse than it was.
For the record, I was c-section birth and had milk allergies as a baby (yes I should have known better than to keep eating it) that prevented breast feeding. So, there is that.
Please have in mind that this is the type of rhetoric that is often used to argue against lowcarbers both in the wild and in the general forum. Bla,bla,bla "no studies show lowcarb will work for everyone" and "I know someone who eats only carbs and lost a ton of weight". Which is technically right. But does it mean they are right ?
I really wish that the mods of this group would acknowledge that we're all different. What I'm trying to say that just because "YOU" don't experience something, does not automatically mean it should be true for someone else. Isn't this supposed to be a lowcarb group welcome for anyone who wants to lower their carbs ?
I guess it won't matter to you that a number of people lately have started to talk about the microbiome, including neurologist Dr. David Perlmutter (Brain Maker) and Rhonda Patrick. I'm not saying the microbiome theory is solid. But I still think it's an interesting theory. At least I'm open to listen to the arguments.2 -
I really wish that the mods of this group would acknowledge that we're all different. What I'm trying to say that just because "YOU" don't experience something, does not automatically mean it should be true for someone else. Isn't this supposed to be a lowcarb group welcome for anyone who wants to lower their carbs ?
<modhat>
o.O
First of all, I just want to point out that this is getting close to the line of "airing of grievances," which are against MFP's policies. While I'm personally okay with bringing concerns up with the mods in the forum and allowing other people to chime in with it, we are, however, required to abide by the community rules.
Rule in question (relevant section being part A):11. No Airing of Grievances With Moderators
a) Protesting a moderator or admin action is not allowed on the Forums or in Groups. If you have a question or concern about a moderator or admin action, please email one of the moderators or MFP's Community Manager, with your concern and we will investigate the matter promptly.
b) If you have concerns about another poster, or wish to report a guideline violation, the only appropriate venue is to use the Flag > Report Post link or to message a moderator or MFP's Community Manager. You may not air such concerns on the message boards themselves. If you have a general concern that does not involve a specific member, you may post your question in the Feedback or Help forums.
c) Threats made to moderators will not be tolerated, and will result in an immediate ban from the site.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/welcome/guidelines
That said, I am genuinely curious as to what you expect to see as "acknowledging that we're all different," since we do do that. We have been actively working on a wide variety of resources for the different manifestations of low carb, have been specifically seeking out people who are more moderate carb and people who are vegetarian, specifically to bring voice to other forms. While some people may disagree with the consumption of fiber, we have done nothing to hinder the numerous discussions that frequently come up about it (I believe @FIT_Goat even stays out of those discussions, by and large), the same with the microbiome discussions (which I do agree is a fascinating topic, even if it's not developed enough yet to really draw conclusions). If you don't feel this is enough, please send a message to me, @baconslave, @FIT_Goat, or @Sabine_Stroehm, detailing what you expect that you don't feel is being fulfilled.
Additionally, I'd like to point out that @V_Keto_V specifically called out "keto-karnivores" and all but named @FIT_Goat, specifically. This post was posted specifically to create a discussion, which is something we also encourage.
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I know that being carnivore makes me feel better than I've ever felt. When I do eat a vegetable the stomach distress isn't okay, so I avoid them. This is what makes me feel best, that's my measuring tape for ME. I don't expect anyone else to ever do things the way I do, and expect the same results. I've been here over a year and have never felt "pushed" to eat a certain way by anyone here. I've taken each individual experience represented (and have been thankful for ever one of them!), used the pieces that might help me, and left the rest. I know everyone has to interpret things their own way, especially with this form of communication, but I've never felt anyone saying you HAVE to eat a certain way. Just my opinion! Hugs!4
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I'm curious to how joining a thread stating didn't really read the information and concluding it wasn't valid constitutes as staying out of discussions. Seems like the opposite to me.
This is not a personal attack in any form. I just get ticked off by poor rhetoric.2 -
I agree with @Karlottap
I feel great doing carnivore this month and it's made me think about what I used to blame for my slight tummy troubles.
If I hadn't read past discussions about it, I probably would've never tried it. It's definitely great to see everyone's different experiences so that we can "try them on" for ourselves if we are curious.
I don't want to go without vegetables forever though. If I have to for the most part, I will. But, the microbiota stuff is very interesting and I don't doubt that if creating the right balance is possible that could be the key to being able to eat veggies without issue. That's something that definitely makes sense to me.
All I know right now, for myself, is that cutting that fiber out the last few weeks has made my digestion more like what the mainstream considers "normal". Back to a daily elimination almost like clockwork. I wasn't even expecting that result. But whatevs...3 -
Foamroller wrote: »@FIT_Goat. It might be you're right concerning Stefansson. I was taking from memory watching Stephen Phinney's lectures and reading his book.
But, I think that you slalom your rhetoric to what you find suitable ad hoc. I have noticed on several occasions that when you don't agree with something, you often shoot it down saying things along the lines of "there's no evidence...".I skimmed through this, but haven't looked into it in detail. In truth, we all know how I am going to default on this type of thing. A lot of the conclusions seem to be based on the belief that eating lots of fiber, vegetables, and fruit is healthy, therefore the effects of that diet on the gut biome are the desirable ones. Any changes from those effects are considered harmful. I don't know that this is a valid conclusion. It reminds me of the cholesterol studies.
We really don't know what a healthy biome means. There could even be a variety of healthy biomes, different ones for different diets.
But when it suits you, you have a tendency to refer to your own N=1 as evidence of your view.Ask @FIT_Goat if he starts eating fruits and veggies ~ if bad things happen to him also. Probably. So, his gut flora is damaged also...we're all in the same boat. Its Keto for the rest of our lives until someone figures out how to change our gut microbiota to "pre-damaged" era.
My gut got a lot better when I stopped eating those things. It returns to where it was when I go back. It isn't worse than it was.
For the record, I was c-section birth and had milk allergies as a baby (yes I should have known better than to keep eating it) that prevented breast feeding. So, there is that.
Please have in mind that this is the type of rhetoric that is often used to argue against lowcarbers both in the wild and in the general forum. Bla,bla,bla "no studies show lowcarb will work for everyone" and "I know someone who eats only carbs and lost a ton of weight". Which is technically right. But does it mean they are right ?
Those people drive me batty too. To be fair, most of those people will grasp for any straw that would allow them the opportunity to hear their own voice while thumping their lifestyle over another. The problem is far more with them then anyone else, IMO. No doubt some of their arguments are based on reality, but the motive behind all of their finger-pointing is rarely for the benefit of someone else. Do they REALLY care what other people eat? I doubt it. So I am not holding my breath for the world to rid itself of people with such mindset, I say just Keto-on.
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I would like to clarify that I'm genuinely happy for the success you guys have with being carnivore. I believe we are all adults and as such we can show grace towards other people's lifestyle choices. It's really none of my business how someone else on the internet eats. I do however think it's important to have open minded discussions about the topic of lowcarb.4
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Whoa, I don't know how that came across. I even acknowledged that I have two previous experiences that would give me a non-typical gut biome (birth and initial feeding).
I did read the OP (all the posts), but I didn't read it in depth. I didn't "study" it would have been more appropriate. I also didn't try and post a lot of contradictory statements saying that it was baseless. Heck, I even threw in a comment that there could be multiple healthy biomes. Maybe some do a lot better with fiber than others. We could find that our biome determines our best individual diet. I don't know.
Of what I gathered from the OP, there were significant differences between the biomes of people eating different diets. Those different biomes also had differing effects on the chemicals and fatty acids produced in the gut. Jumping from that to the idea that a diet high in fiber is best is the leap that I find unsupported.
I [emphatically] do not know enough about the biology of humans and those specific byproducts to make a fully informed opinion. That is the basic idea I had when I posted. It wasn't to say, "I didn't bother to read this and dismiss it out of hand."
As was noted, I generally stay out of pro-fiber threads and threads asking for fiber advice. I do sometimes comment in threads about poop problems, to suggest that more fiber may not be the solution, but that isn't ever meant to say that I dismiss the benefits some people experience from it. I responded because it was directed at the carnivore crowd. If it had a different title, I would have read it--I read way more than I ever respond to--but likely would have not said anything because it's not my way.
Edit to add: I am a participant in the American Gut Project. So, eventually, I may be one of the data points. I do think it is interesting stuff. I just don't think anyone really knows enough to categorize what is "good" and "bad" at this time. The conclusion of the study even suggested the same uncertainty, although it stuck to the existing assumptions.5 -
Let's all play nice ladies & gentlemen. No, I am not calling out anyone specifically; many on this forum do participate in all-animal lifestyle choices. Again, solely out of interest & the mention of low-carbohydrate diets from the article...no need to divide into keto/low carb-sects, we're all on the same side4
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Edit to add: I am a participant in the American Gut Project. So, eventually, I may be one of the data points. I do think it is interesting stuff. I just don't think anyone really knows enough to categorize what is "good" and "bad" at this time. The conclusion of the study even suggested the same uncertainty, although it stuck to the existing assumptions.
@FIT_Goat What is the American Gut Project? I'm at a point of having to do something in this general area myself, so I'd love to know more!0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »Edit to add: I am a participant in the American Gut Project. So, eventually, I may be one of the data points. I do think it is interesting stuff. I just don't think anyone really knows enough to categorize what is "good" and "bad" at this time. The conclusion of the study even suggested the same uncertainty, although it stuck to the existing assumptions.
@FIT_Goat What is the American Gut Project? I'm at a point of having to do something in this general area myself, so I'd love to know more!
Chris Kresser had an interview with him.
He ends up taking a pro-fiber stance, but it's all very interesting info.
https://chriskresser.com/you-are-what-your-bacteria-eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach/
I'm pretty convinced so far that EVERYTHING is affected by the gut microbiome.
And that there are different ideal microbiome configurations.
He has some others about autoimmunity.
I'm sure there are podcasts around.
I'm always looking for others to listen, too on any subject, but this one is very interesting.
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I'm pretty well convinced of this as well.baconslave wrote: »KnitOrMiss wrote: »Edit to add: I am a participant in the American Gut Project. So, eventually, I may be one of the data points. I do think it is interesting stuff. I just don't think anyone really knows enough to categorize what is "good" and "bad" at this time. The conclusion of the study even suggested the same uncertainty, although it stuck to the existing assumptions.
@FIT_Goat What is the American Gut Project? I'm at a point of having to do something in this general area myself, so I'd love to know more!
Chris Kresser had an interview with him.
He ends up taking a pro-fiber stance, but it's all very interesting info.
https://chriskresser.com/you-are-what-your-bacteria-eat-the-importance-of-feeding-your-microbiome-with-jeff-leach/
I'm pretty convinced so far that EVERYTHING is affected by the gut microbiome.
And that there are different ideal microbiome configurations.
He has some others about autoimmunity.
I'm sure there are podcasts around.
I'm always looking for others to listen, too on any subject, but this one is very interesting.
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The American Gut Project is a study of the intestinal biome of the volunteer subjects. Basically, they collect a sample and analyze your bacteria. They also ask about your recent diet, health, weight, etc. You are then anonymously added to their data.
You do get a copy of everything they find about your biome. I have mine somewhere at home. It was interesting, but at this time with current knowledge no one really knows what it all means. It is the hope, of projects like this, that we will eventually have enough data to answer the questions.2
