Taubes responds to Hall

wabmester

The drama continues. Taubes has one more trick up his sleeves: place your bets.

Why do we get fat?

But perhaps we could ratchet up the stakes a bit for the Boston study if we asked America's obesity experts to publicly predict what will happen. We could establish a website and a betting line in Las Vegas. Which obesity hypothesis will win? Carbohydrates, hormones and metabolism? Or energy balance and a calorie is a calorie? Real money should be wagered. The amount the experts are willing to bet will inform us of the strength of their convictions.

Foamroller

Are there any articles that try to explain WHY the contestants RMR went down and stayed down? That point sorta drowned in all the noise.

I really wish Taubes would stop saying caloric intake doesn't matter. He's making it easier for his critics by using distraction. That goes for Fung too... Doing lowcarb is not a metabolic free pass to gorge. For some of us the hunger/satiety dysfunction is not solved and we have to keep an eye on intake. I'm guessing that there's a big difference in leeway if someone is 150 lbs overweight to 10 lbs. The lowcarb cause is not helped by oversimplification, IMO.

Midnightgypsy0

Male 60, 5'9", 240 pounds. Office job. Arthritic knees. Not much exercise.

I've been LCHF for most of a year with no results. Eating about 1800 calories. About 75g carbs.
Yo-yo by about 5 pounds.
Dropped to around 1500 calories. Dropped carbs down to about 50g per day. Went 8 more weeks with minimal results.

Dropped carbs down around 20-30 and now I have been doing 16-8 intermittent fasting. (No breakfast) Still around 1500 calories. Eating higher levels of fat to make up for the carb reduction.

Now I've lost 8-9 pounds in the last 3 weeks.

So, for me, I have to monitor EVERYTHING in order to lose weight.
I have EXACTLY the same body as my father. He died at 85, weighing 235 at 5'4". We both carry belly fat.

My vote is genetics in this discussion. I know people who eat twice as much as I can and weigh in at 180. They are my age and exercise even less than I do.

KetoGirl83

Foamroller wrote: »

(...)
I really wish Taubes would stop saying caloric intake doesn't matter. He's making it easier for his critics by using distraction. That goes for Fung too... Doing lowcarb is not a metabolic free pass to gorge. For some of us the hunger/satiety dysfunction is not solved and we have to keep an eye on intake. I'm guessing that there's a big difference in leeway if someone is 150 lbs overweight to 10 lbs. The lowcarb cause is not helped by oversimplification, IMO.

Totally agree. Maybe on the long run low carb would indeed fix the satiety dysfunction, regardless of amounts consumed. Maybe. But probably only if one were to keep religiously very low carb. I personally feel that effect more with zero carb and I suspect that to some extent that's from boredom and the fact that I don't like meat so if that's all that I have to eat I'll eat less. For me, zero carb works but it's not sustainable.

I love Taubes to bits, I owe him a lot. But he (just like Fung) has one flaw: he's never been obese, he has no first hand idea of the compulsion to eat huge amounts of food. Fung says somewhere one can't overeat real food, and then uses an apple as an example. I could eat apples non-stop from dawn to evening and mess my BG control for months to follow. I don't do it because low carb gave me the distance from food that allows me to make rational decisions. And that amount of control is precious but that's still a rational decision, a conscious option. As for having a body switch after one apple (like Fung apparently has), I'd love to have it but I don't.

Also, Taubes, like most doctors and scientists involved in obesity studies, considers a success any obese patient that loses (and doesn't gain back) a fair amount of body weight. Even if that person is in the end still overweight.

I want a normal BMI, not a much-better-BMI. I had close to 180lbs to lose when I started. The first 50 just melted away, then another 50 went away much slower. And now I'm having difficulty losing 1 or 2 lbs a month. I still need to lose at least 70lbs to have a normal weight. I trust the process (what else can I do?) and I realise that my body has no memory of me as an adult with normal weight so I have to give it time. My present weight is the same I had 20 years ago and at least I'm not gaining any back. But if it doesn't down regulate further on its own, at some point I'll just have to eat less than what feels satiating to me now.

::flowerforyou::

wabmester

Foamroller wrote: »

Are there any articles that try to explain WHY the contestants RMR went down and stayed down? That point sorta drowned in all the noise.

I assumed it was due to reduced leptin levels, but the few studies I looked at found no association with leptin levels and RMR. Even leptin replacement therapy didn't seem to change RMR according to studies, but I've heard (from one of the study participants) that it helped.

It's a good question, though. I'll let you know if I find anything.

FIT_Goat

Foamroller wrote: »

Are there any articles that try to explain WHY the contestants RMR went down and stayed down? That point sorta drowned in all the noise.

I really wish Taubes would stop saying caloric intake doesn't matter. He's making it easier for his critics by using distraction. That goes for Fung too... Doing lowcarb is not a metabolic free pass to gorge. For some of us the hunger/satiety dysfunction is not solved and we have to keep an eye on intake. I'm guessing that there's a big difference in leeway if someone is 150 lbs overweight to 10 lbs. The lowcarb cause is not helped by oversimplification, IMO.

But, that isn't what Taubes says in this article. He says that calories will be controlled based on outcome. That is, those gaining weight will be given less calories. He predicts that those eating low carb will be able to eat more and will be more satisfied with the amount of food they get (not even that they wouldn't ever be hungry or have to eat less). He even accepts that some might not see a metabolic advantage to it.

Personally, I appreciate that Taubes sticks to his guns.

RowdysLady

I just want to say the number of highly educated and intelligent people on this forum amazes me. I'm listening and learning so much.

Thank you all

RalfLott

Foamroller wrote: »

I really wish Taubes would stop saying caloric intake doesn't matter. He's making it easier for his critics by using distraction. That goes for Fung too... Doing lowcarb is not a metabolic free pass to gorge. For some of us the hunger/satiety dysfunction is not solved and we have to keep an eye on intake. I'm guessing that there's a big difference in leeway if someone is 150 lbs overweight to 10 lbs. The lowcarb cause is not helped by oversimplification, IMO.

Well put.
Phinney regularly offers the observation that there are square pegs around - not everyone will thrive and improve their athletic performance by eating LCHF. And, as you say, the hunger/satiety mechanism doesn't work the same for everyone. Some people are insulin resistant to various degrees, and others may overproduce ghrelin or underproduce, or have developed resistance to, leptin (or have something else going on that affects the balance).
Nothing to be gained by telling everyone to ignore calories and snack on coconut oil till they're happy!

RalfLott

Here's Dr. Eric Westman's latest talk on LCHF and T2D. Around 21:30, he gives basic dietary guidelines, which include limiting cheese, heavy cream, and other dairy only because they're high in calories and "you can still gain weight on a low-carb diet." Seems simple enough.

https://youtu.be/pgMizC6sQ6w

GaleHawkins

https://youtube.com/watch?v=r8FCJ_VPyns
The Exploding Autoimmune Epidemic - Dr. Tent - It's Not Autoimmune, you have Viruses

This is the first link presented on Dr. Eric's website mentioned at the end. Since it was about autoimmune health conditions I watched the entire video. There should be something there for everyone from history to science. He is not PC from time to time but I believe that he believes what he has researched to be valid.