Appetite increase during bulk/decrease during cut?
DopeItUp
Posts: 18,771 Member
Perhaps a mildly interesting topic I was just discussing with a coworker.
We shared an observation that when cutting weight, hunger is an issue for a little while (a week or two tops) and then it goes away. In fact, after a decent amount of time has passed I have trouble reaching my calorie goal and start force-feeding myself stuff I don't want to eat just to reach my appropriate protein goals. I think this is somewhat typical but why? If anything, according to the research I've read I should get more and more hungry as things like ghrelin and leptin drop.
Even more perplexing is the flip-side of the equation. When starting a bulk I tend to have some trouble reaching my new goals. But as time goes on, I get more and more hungry and my bulk starts to fly off the rails. I'll start out gaining .5lbs/week, then 1lb/week, next thing I know I'm putting on 10lbs in a month. I can eat 4000 calories a day without even trying. 5000 or more is where it starts to become difficult.
I've been trying to find ways of dealing with this, such as limiting my bulk periods to timeframes that stop before things fly off the rails. It's a work in progress. A couple years ago I gained 50lbs in 3 months, that's how crazy it can get.
So having said all of that, anyone have any idea what's going on to cause this? It seems to me that extended dieting should result in MORE hunger not less. And vice-versa with bulking.
We shared an observation that when cutting weight, hunger is an issue for a little while (a week or two tops) and then it goes away. In fact, after a decent amount of time has passed I have trouble reaching my calorie goal and start force-feeding myself stuff I don't want to eat just to reach my appropriate protein goals. I think this is somewhat typical but why? If anything, according to the research I've read I should get more and more hungry as things like ghrelin and leptin drop.
Even more perplexing is the flip-side of the equation. When starting a bulk I tend to have some trouble reaching my new goals. But as time goes on, I get more and more hungry and my bulk starts to fly off the rails. I'll start out gaining .5lbs/week, then 1lb/week, next thing I know I'm putting on 10lbs in a month. I can eat 4000 calories a day without even trying. 5000 or more is where it starts to become difficult.
I've been trying to find ways of dealing with this, such as limiting my bulk periods to timeframes that stop before things fly off the rails. It's a work in progress. A couple years ago I gained 50lbs in 3 months, that's how crazy it can get.
So having said all of that, anyone have any idea what's going on to cause this? It seems to me that extended dieting should result in MORE hunger not less. And vice-versa with bulking.
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I see this fairly often but it's typically (IMO) due to changes in food selection and discretionary calories getting a bit out of control.
The logic goes something like this:
Cutting---> Oh crap I only get 2100 calories. Better eat a lot of protein/fiber/vegetables. Not much room for junk food. ====> Satiety.
Bulking ---> YEAH BUDDY I got 3400 calories! Bish Imma eat dat cheeseburger. Then that pop tart. Then that other pop tart. ====> Hungry.
Now of course I'm slightly exaggerating but I think this is true for a lot of people.
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I'd love to see a study on that effect, because that is so true from almost everyone that starts to come out of a diet - especially rather extreme - get hungry finally.
I'm wondering if the leptin ranges that are said to cause the hunger to increase need to move a lot more than even some extreme diets cause it to move, or remain at far end of range for longer than most wait - or those folks are lucky, or messed up hormones.
But a study with food types being consistent between high and low amounts would probably mean keeping the participants in a facility for months - that's expensive when the researchers seem to think they already know the answer - despite so many not fitting the pattern.
I'll agree that when I start eating more for longer workout sessions - so not even bulking but still deficit - the food selections are higher carbs % than protein - and for me with insulin spikes/drops and the resulting low blood sugar - hunger when it doesn't need to be from calorie perspective.1 -
I dare say most dieters and bulkers are not as diligent at food selection as you are, my friend. I know I'm guilty of this... some days are spot on, other days I get lazy and though I hit my calorie goals, my macros are just pathetic.0
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Aren't you also typically working/lifting harder in a bulk than in a cut? Wouldn't that alone cause cortisol levels to increase and trigger hunger?1
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tcunbeliever wrote: »Aren't you also typically working/lifting harder in a bulk than in a cut? Wouldn't that alone cause cortisol levels to increase and trigger hunger?
That's going to vary from person to person.
I don't tend to adjust training volume going from a bulk to a cut and I would also suspect the differences in training volume aren't going to make huge differences in hormone status.
Totally speculating of course.
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Just personal experience, but I am starving after a good lifting session but merely thirsty after cardio-only, and more hungry after heavy lifting than light. YMMV, but that's just me.0
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tcunbeliever wrote: »Aren't you also typically working/lifting harder in a bulk than in a cut? Wouldn't that alone cause cortisol levels to increase and trigger hunger?
Good question. My total volume during a bulk is about...50 million times higher. In a cut I'm only training twice a week, major compound lifts for a couple sets of 5 and that's it. During a bulk it's 4x a week and I'm training the compounds 2x a week (instead of once) with accessory work, lots of extra sets, etc..
I know my coworker is doing the same thing, currently bulking and training 5x/week so it could make sense.
I also know that lifting makes me voracious (one of the reasons I cut volume so hard) so on the surface it does seem like it could be a factor.0 -
^ yeah if it's that big of a difference in volume I could see that making a difference.
The most I'll tend to change is to drop 1 work set per compound at most, same frequency/etc0 -
^ yeah if it's that big of a difference in volume I could see that making a difference.
The most I'll tend to change is to drop 1 work set per compound at most, same frequency/etc
Really, interesting. How has that worked for you? I've tried doing that before because that seems to be somewhat of a conventional wisdom. But the only thing that happens to me is that I'm tired and worn out all the time and my strength diminishes during the cut. And it takes a long while to get it back.
Taking a page from some people like Lyle who suggest dropping volume and frequency during a cut, I found I can maintain my strength and manage my fatigue much easier. I've lost about 35lbs so far and my lifts haven't budged. In past experiences I've lost significant weight off of lifts, especially upper body stuff. It's demotivating as hell when your lifts are going backwards month over month!0 -
^ yeah if it's that big of a difference in volume I could see that making a difference.
The most I'll tend to change is to drop 1 work set per compound at most, same frequency/etc
Really, interesting. How has that worked for you? I've tried doing that before because that seems to be somewhat of a conventional wisdom. But the only thing that happens to me is that I'm tired and worn out all the time and my strength diminishes during the cut. And it takes a long while to get it back.
Taking a page from some people like Lyle who suggest dropping volume and frequency during a cut, I found I can maintain my strength and manage my fatigue much easier. I've lost about 35lbs so far and my lifts haven't budged. In past experiences I've lost significant weight off of lifts, especially upper body stuff. It's demotivating as hell when your lifts are going backwards month over month!
Bench tends to stall out on me, deadlift is permanently crap regardless of diet (lol), squats are fine during dieting. Hit a couple of volume PR's in the past two weeks in a deficit.
But, I tend to only cut about 15lbs or so each time I diet. That could be part of it.
I don't tend to suffer during deficits other than stalling on bench.
4/week training. 4 days of bench, 3 squat, 2-3 deads (only 1 heavy).0 -
^ yeah if it's that big of a difference in volume I could see that making a difference.
The most I'll tend to change is to drop 1 work set per compound at most, same frequency/etc
Really, interesting. How has that worked for you? I've tried doing that before because that seems to be somewhat of a conventional wisdom. But the only thing that happens to me is that I'm tired and worn out all the time and my strength diminishes during the cut. And it takes a long while to get it back.
Taking a page from some people like Lyle who suggest dropping volume and frequency during a cut, I found I can maintain my strength and manage my fatigue much easier. I've lost about 35lbs so far and my lifts haven't budged. In past experiences I've lost significant weight off of lifts, especially upper body stuff. It's demotivating as hell when your lifts are going backwards month over month!
Bench tends to stall out on me, deadlift is permanently crap regardless of diet (lol), squats are fine during dieting. Hit a couple of volume PR's in the past two weeks in a deficit.
But, I tend to only cut about 15lbs or so each time I diet. That could be part of it.
I don't tend to suffer during deficits other than stalling on bench.
4/week training. 4 days of bench, 3 squat, 2-3 deads (only 1 heavy).
All I can say is, lucky basturd
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If that's all you can say, you're slipping! lol1
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Perhaps a mildly interesting topic I was just discussing with a coworker.
We shared an observation that when cutting weight, hunger is an issue for a little while (a week or two tops) and then it goes away. In fact, after a decent amount of time has passed I have trouble reaching my calorie goal and start force-feeding myself stuff I don't want to eat just to reach my appropriate protein goals. I think this is somewhat typical but why? If anything, according to the research I've read I should get more and more hungry as things like ghrelin and leptin drop.
Even more perplexing is the flip-side of the equation. When starting a bulk I tend to have some trouble reaching my new goals. But as time goes on, I get more and more hungry and my bulk starts to fly off the rails. I'll start out gaining .5lbs/week, then 1lb/week, next thing I know I'm putting on 10lbs in a month. I can eat 4000 calories a day without even trying. 5000 or more is where it starts to become difficult.
I've been trying to find ways of dealing with this, such as limiting my bulk periods to timeframes that stop before things fly off the rails. It's a work in progress. A couple years ago I gained 50lbs in 3 months, that's how crazy it can get.
So having said all of that, anyone have any idea what's going on to cause this? It seems to me that extended dieting should result in MORE hunger not less. And vice-versa with bulking.
If you don't modify the foods to increase volume, I would think you would be hungrier during a cut. From my understanding when a person cuts calories, your stomach increases the amount of Ghrelin, which would signal to your brain to consume more.
But yea, your volume would be my guess as well. When I increased volume, even my wife noticed the huge increase in hunger for me. Lately, since I have been limited on my lifting, my hunger has gone down.0
