When to change your daily cals target?

toki18

Hi thanks for having a read.

I was following the MFP method where ate back my exercise cals from Jan till May but I found that the uncertainty of not knowing how much I would get to eat each day was causing some major binge episodes which meant that my weight stayed the same.

I worked out my TDEE using Heybales excel TDEE spreadsheet and for the last 2 weeks I have been eating at 10% cut. My concern is I have lost on average 1.42 pounds instead of .4 pounds each week. I am not sure if I should adjust my calories upwards now or wait for another 2 weeks to see if it settles. I don't want to stop or reduce my weight loss much but I also don't want my body to rebel against me whilst I am working on getting my binge eating under control. I am not looking for a quick fix.

What do you suggest?

My details are age. 31 f, 133 pounds, height - 63 inches - loosing weight caused by medication. My own normal range up until 1 year ago was between 120 - 127 pounds.

My workouts weekly
Circuit/Hiit(BBG) x3 - 28 mins
5k x 2 - 29.3 min
10k 1 - 60 mins
5 miles walk (2.5mile commute each way (50 mins)) x5
20 - 30 mins walk x5 - lunch time walk

edit - I must add that I am happy with my exercise routine I have been doing some form of this combo for years and was not added for weight loss.

Any suggestions would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

TerezaToledo

Hello @toki18!
Considering that your doctor is aware of the weigh loss caused by the medication and is working on adjusting the dose to diminish unwanted side effects I would say that you are probably eating too low, even though your deficit is at 10%.

Putting your information on the EM2WL calculator (http://eatmore2weighless.com/weight-loss-calculator/), the 10% cut will give you between 2130 and 2350 calories, depending on the activity level you chose. How much are you actually eating?

There's nothing wrong in doing the cardio level you have been doing, the right thing is to do what makes you happy. But it would be great to switch a couple of cardio workouts to weighted workouts so you can increase and preserve your muscle mass (specially because you just passed the 30 mark). You will see great benefits in how long run.

Tereza
Team EM2WL

toki18

Hi Tereza,

Thank you for getting back to me. I actually gained the weight due to my medication. I am now off that particular med and trying to get back to normal weight.

At the moment I am eating close to 1926 calories everyday. I consider myself to be moderately active. Looking your calculator, it looks like you are putting me in 1 or 2 categories above. Is that right?

The workouts do include weights, I don't know if you have heard of Kayla's Bikini Body Guide? Weights are used in every work out and I use quite heavy dumbbells. I used to do NROLFW but I nearly died of boredom! but I am trying to keep up the weight intensity that I built up doing the programme.

So just to double check
- based on the level of activity I am doing, you think, I have but myself in the wrong activity level? Would you go 1 or 2 levels up?
- Should I still increase my calorie intake now after 2 weeks or wait till I have done 4 weeks and re-*kitten*?
- If I do go up, how much should I increase my cals by and how often to get to the new level?

Again thanks for the help.

toki

TerezaToledo

Hi Toki,
You are welcome!
I did put you on the higher levels of activity considering the workouts you have been doing. You seem pretty active and the more you work out, the mire you show uld eat. Do you have a desk job? If not, you are above moderate for sure. I would say that the drop is probably due to stopping the medication that made your weight go up. At almost 2000 you are not so far off. I would increase at least another 100 a day and see what happens. The key is to lose while eating as much as you can. Plus, if your body is responding with such a fast loss at the calories you are eating, you could eat a bit more to slow down the process.
How long were you on the medication for? How long did it take and how much you gained?

I don't like the uncertainty of not knowing how much to eat daily. It stressed me out and made me obsessed with burning every single morsel I was eating. So I figured out a weekly average, divided by 7 and I eat the same amount more or less everyday. I focus on keeping my protein i take above 30% weekly. Keep it simple. No one can spend all their lives dealing with tables and calculations. Build a habit that is easy and you can so for life.

The best workouts are the one you can stick with, that's for sure! I did the whole NROLW for 6 months and I liked it. The key is to keep challenging yourself and your body.

Tereza
Team EM2WL

toki18

Hi Tereza,

I do have a desk job but I don't spend very much time at my desk. I'm a designer so I spend a lot of time lugging round large rolls of fabrics, or on my feet at my pattern cutting table or visiting factories. So not the most sedentary of jobs. So I guess, I am going up a level then!

I love seeing everyone's progress with the weight programme, I guess I just missed my endorphins high and also I like working out at home.

I actually stopped taking the meds March last year, I was on it for 2-3 months. I had gained 2 stone in approximately 1 month of taking the meds. It was an anti-anxiety medication, I can't remember what it was called but I found out after the weight gain that it was one they used to give to anorexics to make them eat! It basically draws the fat from your blood so you constantly feel like you need to eat high fat foods and then not care that you did! I never felt such a loss of control in my life and it definitely gave me new found sympathy for others who have this problem with or without medication. After I stopped taking it I immediately dropped 7 pounds but I still had residual binge eating issues from this. It has taken me a long time to get that just about in control.

Since I came of the meds, I have been following the MFP method on and and off but I was just gaining and losing the same 2-4 pounds with maybe a 1 pound loss every other month or so. In March last year I weighed 10 stone 13 to put this in context I my usual range varies between 8 stone 4 and at most 9 stone 2 (this is usually the point I would start to restrict a bit in the past!). My comfortable point is 8 stone 7 to 8 stone 13.

3 weeks ago I started following the TDEE method because I didn't like the calorie cycling and how little I had to eat on Sundays. I started at 1835 cals the 1st week but I still ended up over eating on the saturday so then I upped it to 1926 which is where I have been the last 2 weeks.

I am pretty worried about eating over that 2000 threshold, i don't know why?! I was thinking to raise it 50 cals a day this week and then 50 next? Just to get used to the idea of eating so much again. I have definitely been working on my protein intake these last few weeks. My goal at the moment is just to get it above 100g, I was averaging 50-60g a day.

I definitely agree about keeping it simple though. I have 2 goals at the moment for 2 outcome.s
1) Eat more protein 2) eat a steady amount of cals = 1) no binge 2) weight loss .fingers crossed.

Sorry this is really long!

Thanks for any feedback, again.

Toki

TerezaToledo

Toki,
Wow, what a mess with the medication thing! For an anti-anxiety drug, it sure caused even more anxiety! I cannot imagine how hard it was for you.

How fun to work with fabric designs and good thing you are not stuck on a desk all day. Yes, go up one level. I really hate the idea of eating less on rest days. It would make me never want to have a rest day, which we know is detrimental. Rest is as important as working out, but it took me a while to accept that idea. Eating the same calories everyday made it much easier. I had exactly the same issues with having less calories to eat on Sundays, lol. That's why I don't log my exercise, even though I add it to my status feed. Feel free to send me a friend request. I work out at home, nothing beats lifting in my pj's !

I understand your fear of going over the 2000 mark. That's usually a hard thing to even think of. I'm a few inches taller than you and weight a tad more, so I know your fears. Nevertheless I do love to eat and once I found out it was ok to eat, I took the chance and never looked back, lol. Once you are consistent with higher protein for a while, the cravings will be less. You may have some periods of hunger, but that's your body responding to the higher intake and it's ok. It will go away as well. You may not be doing a full reset, but you may feel some of the same effects and body responses (http://eatmore2weighless.com/the-metabolism-reset-guide/). We like to keep things simple at EM2WL.

Your goals are excellent. Increase slowly to avoid bloating (both calories and protein), improve them one at a time until you master them. Then improve something else and keep going.

Tereza
Team EM2WL

toki18

Hi Tereza,

Yeah the meds really messed with me and made me really angry for a while but I got over that. It has helped to make me put in perspective my previous unnecessary diets though which can only be a good thing!

I will definitely have a look at the guide again. I think I tried when I first came of the meds but my eating habits were too messy so I couldn't get any real information to use.

Love the idea of mastering a skill then moving on to something else. I hope I can be patient enough for that. That's definitely not a skill you learn in fashion when everything changes every 4-6 months!

Sent over the friend request. Will check again to let you know how the increasing cals and weight loss is going.

Thanks

Toki

TerezaToledo

Hey Toki!

Patience and consistency go a long way, trust me. Trust the process and keep going. No need to go complicated, the answer may not be so fancy, but it's the right one when it comes to your metabolism. Master one thing then move to another so you don't get overwhelmed. Create habits that overtime will lead you to changes that will stay. You are in the right track!

Tereza
Team EM2WL

heybales

To the fast weight loss - just remember fat is not fast - lost or gained.

Losing water weight you've confirmed from the meds, so no wonder faster than expected.

Same as if you started a new workout in higher heat and actually gained weight.

Consistent slow changes is when you are getting an idea of fat loss or gain.

toki18

Thanks Heybales,

Patience is definitely a skill I am working on. Although the fast weight loss of 7 pounds was a year ago. I don't actually understand why you say this is water loss as I was not working out at the time nor had I started really trying to get the weight off as I was still pretty ill at the time.

I will also have to beg to differ about quick fat gain not being possible, as mine was due to my medication and happened in a very short space of time and it hasn't come of in the same space of time at all.

I am definitely working on being consistent and slow with any changes that I make so I can make sure any changes are real. I haven't changed my workouts since January, I have just been working on eating the same amount every day instead of calorie cycling in the last month.

I am a bit confused about the big difference I am getting from the EMTWL calculator than when I use your TDEE calculator excel sheet though. Is this something you help me with?

Figures: 31 f, 135.5 pounds (9 stone 7 - today) - , height - 63 inches - loosing weight caused by medication. My own normal range up until 1 year ago was between 120 - 127 pounds.

My workouts weekly
Circuit/Hiit(BBG) x3 - 28 mins
5k x 2 - 29.3 min
10k 1 - 60 mins
5 miles walk (2.5mile commute each way (50 mins)) x5
20 - 30 mins walk x5 - lunch time walk

TDEE excel sheet - TDEE: 2395 - 10% cut:2155
EMTWL (6-7 hours exercise): TDEE:2145 - 10% cut: 1930

The 10% cut amount suggest by EMTWL is the same as the TDEE from the calculator. I knos I am supposed to use these as only a guide and find my own TDEE but it is hard to know what to aim for when the figure are so different (to me!)

Thank you for any suggestions on what I should aim for as a base level TDEE.

toki18

heybales

The online calc's if they have 5 levels are all going off the 1919 study by Harris (who made the BMR calc too).

The spreadsheet is going off more recent research (which MFP uses too, for instance Sedentary is 1.25 x BMR instead of 1.2 like Harris TDEE table) - plus it's being specific for what the workouts are.

Obviously different calorie burn for 1 hr walking to 1 hr running to 1 hr lifting.
If you only do 3 hrs weekly of anything - no big deal.
If you do 5 + hours - now a bigger deal.

Spreadsheet also uses a more recent and researched more accurate BMR estimate, which MFP also uses - Mifflin, as the start of the math.

And the TDEE tables have NOTHING about increased daily activity from kids or job, you have to remember to add those levels yourself to a level for workouts only.
Would mailman doing 3 x 1 hr weekly workouts with same physical stats as man with deskjob have the same TDEE?
Spreadsheet has it's own section to add those in.

I of course know what research I did into the research compared to the 1919 study, and think it's more accurate.
You could end up matching exactly the rough 5-level TDEE, you could be 250 cal off as you are. And that is decent amount to be off.

While true you'll need to be adjusting at some point based on results, I figure tools are used to give good estimates, shoot, even the rough 5 level is improvement over the formulas that say so many calories per lb or per inch that some use for really rough estimate.
If ability to improve accuracy - why not?
Don't we do it on food logging by going by weight?
Why not the other side of the formula for what we burn?

As long as you got your times right for those workouts - circuit, 5K, and 10K going under cardio, rest under walking.
And you picked the correct non-exercise activity level with check box - you got it right - your TDEE is higher probably until proved otherwise.

I thought you were describing the fast 7 lb loss as when med's stopped.
So unless starting and stopping the meds caused a massive change in metabolism and TDEE (different things), it would have been water weight.
Now - not unheard of for daily activity level to change enough to introduce or miss out on a deficit - but always do the math if you think it was fat.

7 x 3500 / 4 weeks of change / 7 days = 875 difference in daily calories between eating and burning.

So do you think you were really eating 875 more or less than you burned for that change to be that fast. That would have had to be every single day.
Perhaps you were eating a tad over and gained some actual fat weight, same with the loss.
Perhaps your activity level did change a big amount too while eating stayed up there.

But unless you really try, fat is not fast loss or gained.
If it is fast you need to look at what could be messing with water weight.
And a body in stressed out state gains water from cortisol too - upwards of 20 lbs is possible.

Raynn1

Wow, thats a whole bunch of yipitee yap that basically just sending people into a tailspin and give them a headache. I think I went cross eyed trying to read all that.

@toki18 What you could do to simplify your TDEE, if you are really concerned with the numbers being different, is take the average of the two and call that your TDEE and see what happens. That way you are at least eating in the range of your TDEE and can adjust from there. Neither calculator is 100% accurate and no matter which number you go by, there are only estimates to help you find a place to hit. Once you get near that number, thats when the adjustments take place.

We believe in keeping things simple and effective. Our Calculator has been used by countless members to help them find their estimated TDEE without issue. And it doesnt require 50 billion questions to find it:)
Whichever one you decide to use, make it work for you in the simplest way possible and not to confuse you even further.

Kelly
EM2WL Ambassador and Moderator

TerezaToledo

@Toki18, Kelly is into something here! Lets simplify things, no need to overcomplicate what will lead to the same result. A calculator is just that, a calculator (same thing with a spreadsheet with calculations). Our daily variables change and will definitely alter our TDEE, day after day. The idea of using the average here would be fine, would give you an estimate. Even by using a fitbit charge, with a heart rate monitor, you would still get an estimate of the calories you burned on a given day. A close estimate, but still an estimate.
Yes, we measure our food and portions, but honestly, who is going to be arguing about every single gram and every morsel they eat? Keep it simple, focus in your macros, add a lifting routine and you will see changes. We usually start looking for details and technicalities when we don't see the results we want right away. Trust the process, in the big scheme, those technicalities won't matter.

Check out the journey of some of the folks who took the plunge and started eating and lifting here http://eatmore2weighless.com/blog/

Tereza
Team EM2WL

heybales

She was merely wanting to know the difference between the 2 results.
Which sadly takes explanation.

And I'm not sure what spreadsheet is being thought of.
3 fields for 3 potential time spent in different types of potential exercise you plan on doing weekly.
And 5 potential levels of daily activity. (that sounds familiar).
That's it.

I really wouldn't sell people short on the ability to understand and be interested in details, especially if they ask.
Are you aware of how many people - even among EM2LW group - keep their own spreadsheet and track their measurements and eating levels and loss amounts to hone in on a better TDEE estimate?
Scads - a very scientific number.

And they love it - no stress involved in what they do.
Sure for some details are stressful and better left unknown.
I'm just not going to assume one way or another.

Raynn1

And your explanation is long winded and not necessary.

A simple "My calculator takes a few other factors into play than the others. Make sure you pick your correct level of activity especially if you are over 5+ hours a week. It just a tool to help you out, so if you need to tweak it a bit and play with your numbers, then do so"

You really dont need to complicate things so much

toki18

Thank you all for the feedback.

I think my initial confusion was realising that if you think about my commute and lunch time walk as exercise, I was actually exercising 14+ hours a week which puts me well into the 7+ activity level. This is a big jump as I thought myself to be moderately active.

The 2nd shock was then realising how high my TDEE could be looking at all the calculators and working with the 7+ activity level!

So I have decided to keep it simple and also to complicate things at the same time (I do like my data and I do keep my own spreadsheet with trend graphs and everything! )

The plan is to increase my cals by 100 every 3-4 weeks. The first week for my body to get use to the increase weeks 2-3 to see if a trend forms. The plan is to do this till I get to my true TDEE. Depending on my actual TDEE this should take me between Oct-Dec to achieve. The plan then is to maintain over Christmas and then get on the New Year's resolution band wagon and start a cut then. In theory that's the idea but let's see how it goes.

Increased by 100 cals on Monday and I can tell you waiting for the scales to stabilise has been stupidly tough and I know that every 100 cal rise will be as well. I just have to get through it.

Thanks again for the help.

x toki18

TerezaToledo

I am so happy you are making informed decisions! Yes, it's though when we realize that we need to eat that much more. Hey, we spent our lives thinking that eating was not ok, that we would get nowhere eating what our bodies needed. But the truth is that yes, we need to eat what our bodies need. Would you stop putting gas or put less gas on your car tank because you think it should take less? Nope.
Your plan is on point and I'm sure you will accomplish it. Be open to make whatever tweaks you need along the way.

I'll leave you with some metabolism fixing read here http://eatmore2weighless.com/cant-fix-metabolism-without-addressing-this/

We are here to help. Feel free to ask questions and send us friend requests.

Tereza
Team EM2WL

empressichel

@toki18 Just wanted to say how awesome I think you are for not just reading all the info, but actually taking the plunge and implementing. That's a step that many don't take.
This is excellent encouragement for you;
http://eatmore2weighless.com/trust-process/
Good luck and please keep us updated on how you are getting on.
Ichel
EM2WL Ambassador and Moderator

justsayinisall

Wow you guys are harsh to heybales, he was the only one around here helping people for a long time, maybe his style of help doesn't groove with yours but no need to bash him ... just sayin'.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...@toki18 one thing that caught my eye was your plan to work your way up to TDEE, which you think will take up to December, and then go into the cut in the New year. I think once you find your TDEE you will want to STAY at that for up to four months...right people? You've been in a severe deficit for a long time, you need to eat at TDEE to get your metabolism going and then eat at that...for a longer than a few weeks.

Just a suggestion but maybe up your calories a little faster than 100 for 3-4 weeks which will allow you to get to TDEE quicker.

TerezaToledo

There is no bashing going on, please don't misunderstand us. But EM2WL has a simpler approach that is effective in the medium and long term and that's what we stand for. We have seem it many times before, overcomplicating is a sure way for people to quit the process before reaping results and realizing that they don't have to go back to the old strict dieting/over exercisizing to achieve their goals.

Our message is simple and clear and we believe that it's the way to go. Some folks do like a more technical approach, and that's ok because it works for them. But most people will just stop before even filling in the blanks because it is just too overwhelming. If knowledge cannot be delivered in a way that it can be understood, unfortunately it gets lots in the words. It's great to have people like heybales helping, but it ends up backfiring if the posters cannot actually use and benefit from the information.

Just my 2 cents.

Tereza
Team EM2WL

Raynn1

Couldnt have said it better myself @TerezaToledo
Certainly we aren't bashing anyone, but like Tereza said, overcomplicating things will tend to drive a lot of people back to the old diet mentality. We want to see people succeed and keeping things simple is our purpose.


And yes, you are correct @justsayinisall when you hit TDEE, you want to stay there for a while, especially if coming from a diet extreme background. Once you get to TDEE your body needs to remember that this is the correct maintenance level so the only way to do that is to eat there for a long while.. Then make your cut. 4 months is definitely a good amount of time.

toki18

Okay, so 1st week eating 2000 calories every day is complete.
My Monday weigh in puts me at 9 stone 7.6
The week's average was 9 stone 8.2 ( I weigh daily).
This means I have gone up 0.26 pounds up from last week's average but 1.6 pounds down from last Monday's weigh in.
Will stay at 2000 for another week at least and re-*kitten*.

@justsayinisall and @TerezaToledo thanks for the advise for staying at TDEE when I get there for a few months. I am happy to play this by ear, if I can handle it, I might wait till Feb or March before I start cutting again.

Not sure how I feel about upping my cals more rapidly though, I found last week quite stressful and I would like to keep those stressful weeks spread out. If it get's easier to increase cals then I will def think about it.

I'm really grateful for all the suggestions I've gotten and I am very happy to hear all suggestions, I have a pretty enquiring mind and I do love going down the rabbit hole of research but I also recognise the need to remember the basics.

Will update stats next Monday when I decide if I should stick or play! (up my cals)

thanks

Toki

TerezaToledo

Excellent, @toki18! I like the idea of increasing slowly, it will give you less mental anxiety and will be easier on your body. If you rip the bandaid too fast, you may deal with more bloat and will end up quitting before you get to the right place. 100 extra per day, week by week is fine. Playing by ear is great because your body is different than others and this process takes different times for different people. What we know is that it works in the long run. Patience and consistency go a long way!

I'm glad that you like doing your research and understand what's going on. When things get to complicated, don't lose it, just go back to basics. Keep us updated!

Tereza
Team EM2WL

lwhayes820

@Heybales - appreciate your help on this and other forums. Your insight and research are spot - on -- thank you.