Indulgences, please help!

linmueller

I'm not sure where to start, but a little background might help. I've been on WW for 4 years. The first 2 I was on program, had consistant losses, and I learned early how to include indulgences. The next year I mostly held steady, with around 80-90#s off. Then I was on long term, high doses of prednisone and 3 antihistamines, and in 3 months, I gained 30#s. That was sept-nov, and the fog took months to clear (those drugs weren't kind to my brain). I've struggled to get back on program ever since. I'll track for 3 or 4 weeks then I fall apart again.

Right now, I'm on a good run, and optimistic that I've got my act together. My goal is to lose the rest of the gain, 20#s, and then get down to goal. BUT, here's the problem, I am struggling to add in indulgences! I cruise along with minimal effort, eating healthy foods, and then, I eat an indulgence, like pizza for lunch yesterday, and I struggle mightly the rest of the day! I did track yesterday and used 7 weeklies. I'm ok with using weeklies, I just don't understand why it all becomes so hard!

Anyone have thoughts on how to add indulgences without having to struggle so hard? They almost don't seem worth it, but I can't imagine life without pizza And I don't mean to sound whiny, I just would love to be able to get some straight line losses without constantly testing my will power and having to struggle against my impulses!

MurpleCat

Well, I'd make a distinction between indulgences that are planned for, and impulses that you have to struggle against. If you plan for it, then its ... well, it was your plan. So why would dinner after an indulgent lunch be any different than dinner after a salad?

But give in to an impulse, and "the seal has been broken", and you're more susceptible to other impulse decisions (at least that's been my experience).

So maybe the answer is to plan for more indulgences so you aren't tempted by impulses?

MurpleCat

Or, if you're just generally finding that your short term decision making isn't aligning with your long term goals... that's a sign that you're struggling against your own self, and its time to make (or update) the Two Lists.

For those unfamiliar with this exercise, you take a piece of paper and draw a line down the middle. On the left side, write down all the reasons you want to lose weight. That's the easy one, and I think we all have very similar lists for that. In the right column, write down all the reasons you don't want to lose weight (eat pizza whenever I want, not have to plan to carefully, all my clothes currently fit, I don't have time to exercise, I don't want all the extra attention.... whatever they are).

Then look at the lists and DECIDE where you want to live. Maybe now isn't the right time for you, that's ok. But if you do decide to lose weight (not try to lose weight), then you'll find your resolve strengthened by the list. At least I did. Because having that extra donut (or slice of pizza, etc.) is tantamount to saying that I made the wrong decision about which of the two lists I want to live on. And I hate being wrong!

In any case, its a way of bringing forward all the competing goals, influences, and impulses, so that you are conscious of them. Which leads to more mindful choices.

Rachel0778

Are you using more dailies than normal in your indulgences? That might be why you're struggling since you're hungrier than normal for the rest of the day. When I was on plan, by weeklies and APs were solely used for indulgences so that way I wasn't more hungry than normal on those days

Example: my typical lunch was 7 points, but my indulgent lunch was 15 points. I would auto add 8 weeklies to make up the difference so that way I had the same amount of points for the rest of the day for dinner/snacks

linmueller

Thanks for reminding me about the list Murple! And for the excellent picture of how my eating decisions reflect my choice to lose weight. I esp. appreciate the reference to being "wrong" since I hate to be wrong too! Great food for thought as always!

linmueller

MurpleCat wrote: »

Well, I'd make a distinction between indulgences that are planned for, and impulses that you have to struggle against. If you plan for it, then its ... well, it was your plan. So why would dinner after an indulgent lunch be any different than dinner after a salad?

But give in to an impulse, and "the seal has been broken", and you're more susceptible to other impulse decisions (at least that's been my experience).

So maybe the answer is to plan for more indulgences so you aren't tempted by impulses?

It's hard to explain, or maybe I'm just not seeing it clearly myself, but it's not the indulgence that's the problem, it's the time afterwards. For example, I planned to eat the pizza. I cut it in bites and enjoyed each one. I esp. love the variety of each bite, and the cheesiness. And I had my points accounted for too. BUT once I got home after eating it, I wanted everything in sight! It was a 6 hour struggle! Does that make sence? I just don't get why one yummy lunch made me want to throw in the towel...

linmueller

Rachel0778 wrote: »

Are you using more dailies than normal in your indulgences? That might be why you're struggling since you're hungrier than normal for the rest of the day. When I was on plan, by weeklies and APs were solely used for indulgences so that way I wasn't more hungry than normal on those days

Definitely using more dailies in my indulgence by a lot! I was 'wanting' food well before I was hungry tho. BUT, maybe I was afraid I'd be hungry and knew I didn't have many points left. ... This is all such a mind game! So thank you for getting me thinking!

minimyzeme

Lin, I think there's lots of good 'food for thought' in the previous responses.

One of the benefits for working the program for me is developing the process of breaking down my eating behaviors and trying to see if I can figure out the root of them. This is a work in progress but it has given me some insight for why I do (or used to do) what I do.

I find it interesting that your trigger for wanting to eat more and more comes from that initial indulgence--in the example you used, the one piece of pizza that you dealt with very mindfully.

So did the urge to keep shoveling food in come right away or not until you got home? You said when you got home. Are you sure? (I don't know what it means either way, but you might if you break it down.) What ultimately tames the urge? Is there something that curtails it or does it just wear off with time? (Again, I don't know what either one would mean.)

In my mindless eating times, I've taken a two-step approach. I know I do the behavior and I'm working on it but I'm not totally 'cured' yet, and may never be. So I try to more mindfully go ahead and eat if that's what's called for. But in doing so, I intentionally eat things that are not going to do me in--I'll eat stuff that's low in points most of the time. So at least I've nipped most of the behavior's adverse impact. It may not be a perfect system but it works for now.

A woman at my WW meeting who earned Lifetime tonight talked about how much journaling has helped her. That might be something to try to help you better understand where the urge comes from and in doing so, how to be in control of it.

I'd wish you luck, but I don't think it's about luck. I think it's more about actively working your way through the challenge. I will be curious to hear what you learn and what strategies you use to get through this.

linmueller

Lots of great thoughts here Kim! I want to sort thru them and answer some of your questions when I'm more awake, but I think you may have given me an idea. I'll get back to you in the a.m. I'm not sure but I think I may see a lightbulb over my head!

crewahl

I have the same issue, Lin - in the words of a Blake Shelton song, "If I have one, I'll have thirteen; nah, there ain't no in-between." But I've got some things that help me.

The primary issue is that I rarely crave things that aren't available. I don't get seized by a desire to run out for pizza, but if it's in the house and I have a slice, I want the rest. Have a cookie that's provided in a meeting, and I'll have three. So it's all about wanting more.

What has helped is limiting those sorts of indulgences to "last hurrah." In other words, I'll take the last slice of pizza, and since there's no more available, I'm okay with that. I'll put off the cookie, but I'll take one when I'm leaving the meeting room - and since they're not accessible, they're not a problem.

In terms of things around the house? Well, I tend to avoid having foods I don't control well available. There's no Chunky Monkey in my freezer. For other things like fudges ices, I buy pre-portioned. I'll set out what I can have - three fudgsicles loose in the drawer; leave the rest in the box - and by making that selection, it's my choice. It's a lot easier to deal with my own choice than to be constrain by some other limit.

The last thing? Most overindulgence is an impulse thing. If you can slow that impulse down for a few seconds and insert an element of the rational, you have an opportunity to break the cycle. Peter Lynch of Fidelity was famous for saying "know what you own and why you own it." In our context, I would say "know what you're eating and why you're eating it." So if you can get those few seconds, ask yourself, "Would I prefer to have the pleasure of eating this now, or the satisfaction of knowing I made a rational decision? Will I get enough pleasure from this to offset a poorer result at the scale? Do I want this now more than I want to be at goal?" Choosing "now" isn't wrong, but it should be a choice rather than an event.

Hope that helps.

susan092907

I've been there too. I think part of the problem for me has been black/white thinking. Food is good food or bad food. I'm on plan or off plan. I don't indulge or I overindulge. I think this accounts for much of the reason that for 40+ years I was an expert at losing weight and an expert at gaining weight but never learned to maintain.

I've been working hard to change my perspective on this. Pizza, potato chips and full fat full sugar ice cream aren't necessarily "indulgences" for me now. They're just among the many items of food that are part of my diet. They're also among some of the items that I don't eat very frequently because they're not very healthy and because when I eat them I have fewer calories left for the foods that satiate me more and promote better health.

I used to feel that once I crossed the line from being on plan to being off plan, or to eating bad food instead of good food, then I might as well just go ahead and eat more and more of those things. Now I try to think that eating that pizza was great, I enjoyed it, I'll eat it again some time, and it doesn't mean that I need to go ahead and eat with abandon because of it.

Rachel0778

susan092907 wrote: »

I've been there too. I think part of the problem for me has been black/white thinking. Food is good food or bad food. I'm on plan or off plan. I don't indulge or I overindulge. I think this accounts for much of the reason that for 40+ years I was an expert at losing weight and an expert at gaining weight but never learned to maintain.

I've been working hard to change my perspective on this. Pizza, potato chips and full fat full sugar ice cream aren't necessarily "indulgences" for me now. They're just among the many items of food that are part of my diet. They're also among some of the items that I don't eat very frequently because they're not very healthy and because when I eat them I have fewer calories left for the foods that satiate me more and promote better health.

I used to feel that once I crossed the line from being on plan to being off plan, or to eating bad food instead of good food, then I might as well just go ahead and eat more and more of those things. Now I try to think that eating that pizza was great, I enjoyed it, I'll eat it again some time, and it doesn't mean that I need to go ahead and eat with abandon because of it.

Seconded! Well said Susan

beachwoman2006

So here's a tip my leader gave me many moons ago when I was still following Flex (or whatever it was called then).

She told me to focus on the GHGs (yeah, I know they aren't part of the new and improved program). If I got in all of those without going over my daily points, THEN I could have an "indulgence". Otherwise, I needed to use my weeklies or APs (which I never tracked or used so that wasn't an option).

So if, at the end of the day, I had some daily points left over and had used weeklies for an indulgence during the day, THEN I could go back and use my leftover dailies and get back some of my weeklies.

It may not work for everyone, but it worked well for me.

linmueller

crewahl wrote: »

The last thing? Most [iover [/i]indulgence is an impulse thing. If you can slow that impulse down for a few seconds and insert an element of the rational, you have an opportunity to break the cycle. Peter Lynch of Fidelity was famous for saying "know what you own and why you own it." In our context, I would say "know what you're eating and why you're eating it." So if you can get those few seconds, ask yourself, "Would I prefer to have the pleasure of eating this now, or the satisfaction of knowing I made a rational decision? Will I get enough pleasure from this to offset a poorer result at the scale? Do I want this now more than I want to be at goal?" Choosing "now" isn't wrong, but it should be a choice rather than an event.

Hope that helps.

That last paragraph helped a ton! Kim got me thinking that I 'just' need to figure out how to stop. He said, " What ultimately tames the urge? Is there something that curtails it or does it just wear off with time?". So, if I can slow the impulse down and think rationally (using the list of why I do and don't want to lose weight, thank you Murple), I can turn the tide! This may just be the answer!

linmueller

Susan, you described the pre-WW me to a tee. I was totally on or off a diet. Since I learned at week 3 how to eat 'indulgences' (a short way of saying foods that aren't considered 'healthy') while losing weight, I made the assumption that I was 'cured'.

I almost added after my reply to Charlie, that he'd given me the tools to deal with the problem, but I still didn't understand why it was such a problem! I think you may have answered that question! I think I reverted back to that all or nothing thinking while struggling this last 6 months. Thank you for shedding light on this! Knowledge is power! Corny, but so true!

linmueller

Cindy, the tip from your leader may be what I need to help me get rid of the all or nothing mentality! Logically, if I've eaten enough healthy food to fuel my body, I shouldnt feel like I'm off my diet if I have a piece of pizza. Since I'm guessing (after reflecting on this thread) that eating the pizza flipped a switch to eat everything in sight, after all, I was off my diet anyway, which is really annoying! Why does my brain work that way! If nothing else, saving the pizza for after I've eaten a healthy, balanced diet, will delay it until later in the day, and for whatever reason, I don't struggle with food after about 4 p.m.

Ok, reading that back, I rambled, but it makes sense to me and I think it will help the problem! Thanks!

linmueller

Thank you all for giving me a fresh perspective on what's going on in my brain, and providing some strategies for dealing with it! You guys are the best!

And I have work to do to get my brain rewired!

Thanks again!

countcurt

There's also this- despite doing all the 'tricks' to make the indulgence so pleasurable that the 6 bites of it are enough, there are times when it just isn't enough. In those cases I don't necessarily feel like I got the indulgence 'experience' I 'paid for' with all those points. Sort of like I want to get my full pointsbomb worth of indulgence which obviously means more.

Put another way, I'm not sure it's the behavior of a naturally thin person to parse 6 bites of pizza and go into the hyperawareness you describe in order to maximize pleasure. So, to some degree, you've teed up the rest of the day from a somewhat abnormal starting point. So all bets are off.

linmueller

I'm not sure what gave you the idea that the portion was small COUNT. It was a full size piece from Costco (minus the crust, it wasn't that great), probably equal to 2 normal size pieces.

But, your comment does make me wonder if I got too fixated on what I was eating, causing me to want more of that experience. Is it possible to be too mindful? Hmmm...

crewahl

"The End of Overeating" by David Kessler PhD is a good book to help you understand why it's such a problem. Title notwithstanding, it's not a cure-all read but it can give you some knowledge.

Which, as we all know, is power.

linmueller

I can't remember if I read that one or not Charlie. I'll look into it and either pick it up or reread my notes. Thanks!

countcurt

I chose the number 6. I had the impression it was not a large portion. Or, maybe that's my issue.

But my personal experience tells me there absolutely is such a thing as too much mindfulness. Sometimes you can become so mindful that it alters the experience of the indulgence in such a way that it's just not as pleasurable as you would have hoped.

I have a similar experience with attempts to slow down my eating. I get so focused on making sure I chew 50 times (or whatever) and meting out each bite so that it's smaller and extends the experience that I become less aware of the sense of enjoyment of actually eating it.

linmueller

Interesting thought! I'll have to pay attention to how mindful I am, and it's effects. (No pun intended!). I've never considered this angle before.

BTW, I wasn't trying to be difficult with my question , I'm just a very literal thinker.

beachwoman2006

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