Bike Trainers
Replies
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I'd buy a power meter in a heartbeat if I thought it would be a fun toy. I suspect I'd find it depressing.
(Not to beat a dead horse, but heart rate training is always "accurate" since it give you a gauge of how hard your body is working. It is true that you could be tired from a prior workout or perhaps you drank too much Monster juice before your ride, but in any case, you can't keep your heart rate in the 90% range for more than a few minutes!)1 -
I don't feel bad about not having one, but I am a gadget guy. So something like a power meter is just the sort of thing I would like.0
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That's where I fall as well @rileysowner. I don't need it, but I do want it. It helps me quantify my efforts, so I can see how I'm doing compared to yesterday, or last week, etc. I've been picking up more data, and it's helped me to see progress. Especially useful for these winter months stuck indoors which leave me asking if it's worth it, you know?0
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Tried some Youtube training videos today from CTXCvideos. Pretty good workout. I have never tried them before. I think I will stick with them for a while, although interval training will get old soon enough. Hopefully I can find some that a less interval, but still have some variations that keep me interested.1
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rileysowner wrote: »Tried some Youtube training videos today from CTXCvideos. Pretty good workout. I have never tried them before. I think I will stick with them for a while, although interval training will get old soon enough. Hopefully I can find some that a less interval, but still have some variations that keep me interested.
Apologies for stating what may be obvious, but for anyone reading this who may not know, you generally don't want to do intervals every day. Normally it's recommended to restrict hard interval workouts to 2, and no more than 3, days per week, ideally with a day or more of rest or easier riding between. For any other ride days, find some interesting vids or movies to watch and spin at an endurance pace. It's also worth noting that most people consider an hour of trainer time to be equivalent to 75-90 minutes outdoors due to the constant nature of trainer work, i.e. no stop signs, downhill coasting, etc.0 -
rileysowner wrote: »Tried some Youtube training videos today from CTXCvideos. Pretty good workout. I have never tried them before. I think I will stick with them for a while, although interval training will get old soon enough. Hopefully I can find some that a less interval, but still have some variations that keep me interested.
Apologies for stating what may be obvious, but for anyone reading this who may not know, you generally don't want to do intervals every day. Normally it's recommended to restrict hard interval workouts to 2, and no more than 3, days per week, ideally with a day or more of rest or easier riding between. For any other ride days, find some interesting vids or movies to watch and spin at an endurance pace. It's also worth noting that most people consider an hour of trainer time to be equivalent to 75-90 minutes outdoors due to the constant nature of trainer work, i.e. no stop signs, downhill coasting, etc.
I am quite aware of that, hence the desire for something more like an actual ride than intervals. I tend toward the no more than 2 per week if they are fairly high intensity as they are very stressful on the body.
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rileysowner wrote: »Tried some Youtube training videos today from CTXCvideos. Pretty good workout.
Thanks for the pointer, I'll try them.
(For a sustained workout I usually just watch TV or listen to a podcast.)
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Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »rileysowner wrote: »Tried some Youtube training videos today from CTXCvideos. Pretty good workout.
Thanks for the pointer, I'll try them.
(For a sustained workout I usually just watch TV or listen to a podcast.)
What I would like, is a sustained pace where occasionally there is a directed change in speed or resistance, but not in an interval pattern. Albeit, the weather here is so beautiful today that I think I will break out the mountain bike and do some riding. Too messy for me on trails right now with all the snow melting, but even a ride on the road on the MTB would be better than nothing.1 -
rileysowner wrote: »What I would like, is a sustained pace where occasionally there is a directed change in speed or resistance, but not in an interval pattern.
I got it: Watch the news and pick a keyword for "sprint." It has to be a word not uttered too often, so that rules out "Trump" on any news service anywhere.
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Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »rileysowner wrote: »What I would like, is a sustained pace where occasionally there is a directed change in speed or resistance, but not in an interval pattern.
I got it: Watch the news and pick a keyword for "sprint." It has to be a word not uttered too often, so that rules out "Trump" on any news service anywhere.
Or protest, undocumented, illegal, and quite a few others ;-)0 -
I just keep riding outside. If riding isn't fun I don't want to do it and riding on a trainer is frown inducing. I'm sure you guys would all smoke me, but I'm cool with that.1
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denversillygoose wrote: »I just keep riding outside. If riding isn't fun I don't want to do it and riding on a trainer is frown inducing. I'm sure you guys would all smoke me, but I'm cool with that.
I don't ride in snow, slush, and worst of all ice, thus a trainer. If I didn't have a trainer, I would go through the spring with the pain of getting used to sitting long hours in the saddle. I avoid that by cycling regularly on my normal road bike using the trainer. For that matter, it helps when preparing for century rides when the weather is really rainy.1 -
denversillygoose wrote: »I just keep riding outside. If riding isn't fun I don't want to do it and riding on a trainer is frown inducing. I'm sure you guys would all smoke me, but I'm cool with that.
I totally get this, but for me riding outside in the cold isn't fun. I'm a southern boy through and through. I don't like the cold and it's always 70 degrees in my Man Cave.
rileysowner wrote: »I don't ride in snow, slush, and worst of all ice, thus a trainer. If I didn't have a trainer, I would go through the spring with the pain of getting used to sitting long hours in the saddle. I avoid that by cycling regularly on my normal road bike using the trainer. For that matter, it helps when preparing for century rides when the weather is really rainy.
Seems like every winter there's a story on VeloNews about some pro or the other that's recovering from a broken bone after slipping on ice during a training ride. Even beyond the dangers of riding in winter weather, which we don't get much of here, is just lack of daylight. With my job and commute, riding outdoors during the week is out of the question for me unless I ride after dark (not worth the additional risk) or at lunch (not always possible). Add to all that the availability of entertainment, good training software and/or videos, and the way trainers lend themselves to performing specific workouts, and to me it's a no-brainer. I realize not everyone agrees, but I'm a big believer, even to the point where I use my trainer on a regular basis year-round. Sometimes it's just more convenient.
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We wimps should just come out and say that denversillygoose is awesome to get out and ride in the winter!
I am intimidated by the snow, rain, darkness, and residual sand in New England this time of year. I am excited to think that if I pound the trainer all March and April I will be in awesome shape by May, when the weather starts to improve around here. I wish I had started earlier...1 -
Totally agreed @Jthanmyfitnesspal. Once the weather started getting cold, I packed it in and got on a trainer. Been doing that since November. Planning on getting back on the road in April. Anybody who can manage the cold well enough to ride well? Kudos to you. You're better than I, definitely 1
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rileysowner wrote: »denversillygoose wrote: »I just keep riding outside. If riding isn't fun I don't want to do it and riding on a trainer is frown inducing. I'm sure you guys would all smoke me, but I'm cool with that.
I don't ride in snow, slush, and worst of all ice, thus a trainer. If I didn't have a trainer, I would go through the spring with the pain of getting used to sitting long hours in the saddle. I avoid that by cycling regularly on my normal road bike using the trainer. For that matter, it helps when preparing for century rides when the weather is really rainy.
Yeah, this is where I'm at right now. I have an event coming up April 8 and so far 2 training rides have been rained out and probably more in the future. If I don't get my training in indoors I'm not going to be ready.0 -
rileysowner wrote: »denversillygoose wrote: »I just keep riding outside. If riding isn't fun I don't want to do it and riding on a trainer is frown inducing. I'm sure you guys would all smoke me, but I'm cool with that.
I don't ride in snow, slush, and worst of all ice, thus a trainer. If I didn't have a trainer, I would go through the spring with the pain of getting used to sitting long hours in the saddle. I avoid that by cycling regularly on my normal road bike using the trainer. For that matter, it helps when preparing for century rides when the weather is really rainy.
Yeah, this is where I'm at right now. I have an event coming up April 8 and so far 2 training rides have been rained out and probably more in the future. If I don't get my training in indoors I'm not going to be ready.
This year we have had some really unseasonably warm days so I have gotten out once for a ride, but mostly I ride indoors this time of year or cross country ski. No snow for skiing, so it is all indoor rides.0 -
rileysowner wrote: »rileysowner wrote: »denversillygoose wrote: »I just keep riding outside. If riding isn't fun I don't want to do it and riding on a trainer is frown inducing. I'm sure you guys would all smoke me, but I'm cool with that.
I don't ride in snow, slush, and worst of all ice, thus a trainer. If I didn't have a trainer, I would go through the spring with the pain of getting used to sitting long hours in the saddle. I avoid that by cycling regularly on my normal road bike using the trainer. For that matter, it helps when preparing for century rides when the weather is really rainy.
Yeah, this is where I'm at right now. I have an event coming up April 8 and so far 2 training rides have been rained out and probably more in the future. If I don't get my training in indoors I'm not going to be ready.
This year we have had some really unseasonably warm days so I have gotten out once for a ride, but mostly I ride indoors this time of year or cross country ski. No snow for skiing, so it is all indoor rides.
It's nice to get out for a ride on a warmer winter day - a lot less sweat involved than the summer I've had the trainer for a few years now, but this is the first time I've gotten serious about training, because of the rain. I actually think I'll end up in better shape than I would just riding with my group as usual, since it's all very recreational and social, and I find I'm definitely more aggressive when riding by myself, even on the trainer. 0 -
The strange thing about the trainer for me is that I can't get my heart rate up without getting off the seat. Riding off the seat on the trainer is different from when you are on the road, swaying the bike. Also, I feel like I could use more resistance when I'm really pumping. I'm already using the highest gear.0
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Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »The strange thing about the trainer for me is that I can't get my heart rate up without getting off the seat. Riding off the seat on the trainer is different from when you are on the road, swaying the bike.
HR not coming up could be a cooling thing. Are you using a fan? I've heard of people having trouble getting HR up indoors, including from my old coach who said he always struggled to get his HR up indoors. I've never had this problem personally and everyone and their uncle has a solution for it, including (but not limited to) mental blocks, not warmed up enough, not enough cooling, and not enough resistance from the trainer. How long are you riding? How structured of a warmup do you do?
Is this with your new Road Machine? 'cause damn. If you are overpowering that thing either you have a faulty unit or you are a complete beast.Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »Also, I feel like I could use more resistance when I'm really pumping. I'm already using the highest gear.
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@ntnunk: I hope the thing is working correctly! I'm no Olympian. I ride at 17mph while in the seat, cranking at about 80RPM. This gets my HR up to around 140. When I jog, it goes higher, up to around 160 for brief periods. So yesterday I decided to pump out of the seat for several 2-minute intervals during the workout. To make it comfortable, I had to go into the highest gear, whereupon I was at 40-50RPM and closer to 20MPH. The problem was that, unlike when you climb a hill out of the seat, the resistance felt low, so that I would sometimes lose force on the cranks. A little practice eliminated this, but its certainly different from a road ride. I did succeed in raising my HR by doing this,
as shown below.0 -
Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »@ntnunk: I hope the thing is working correctly! I'm no Olympian. I ride at 17mph while in the seat, cranking at about 80RPM. This gets my HR up to around 140. When I jog, it goes higher, up to around 160 for brief periods. So yesterday I decided to pump out of the seat for several 2-minute intervals during the workout. To make it comfortable, I had to go into the highest gear, whereupon I was at 40-50RPM and closer to 20MPH. The problem was that, unlike when you climb a hill out of the seat, the resistance felt low, so that I would sometimes lose force on the cranks. A little practice eliminated this, but its certainly different from a road ride. I did succeed in raising my HR by doing this,
as shown below.
Ahhh. This makes more sense. First, jogging will normally result in a higher HR than cycling. Most people who run and cycle actually have two different max HR and zone breakouts for the two different activities. It makes sense when you think about it: when you cycle you aren't normally supporting your own body weight, therefore you aren't working as hard. When you're out of the saddle then cycling becomes a self-supporting exercise so your HR numbers will mimic your numbers for a run much more closely.
Yes, riding out of the saddle on a trainer is a different think from the road. You have to be a lot more smooth and you can't really use your weight to apply force to the pedals as much as you do on the road. I'd guess this is what was giving you the sense of the trainer not having enough resistance.1 -
Well - As @ntnunk says, you're MHR for cycling will likely be between 5 and 10 beats lower than for running - that's just a given.
However, just to dig a little deeper re: the trainer
Just a short geeky calculation... Hold on, here comes the maths bit...
assuming a compact chainset and standard block, 50x11 combination top gear, at a cadence of 80rpm, thats a back wheel speed of 45.8kph (28.5mph)
Now, the powercurve for this trainer used to be published by Kurt Kinetic, but it appears that it's now been moved - it was linked at https://www.kurtkinetic.com/computer_tech.php but it's now gone...
however someone grabbed the formula and made a spreadsheet from it...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z_zSvmUpXMf-4pzpzBchgTpfM54pNo4KiN1o6hBhPsg/edit#gid=0
formula for calculation of the power required to turn your cranks at a given speed is
P = (5.244820) * S + (0.01968) * S^3
With S being Speed in Mph and P being Power in Watts
so - plug in a speed of 28.5mph and you get 149.47737 + 455.57478 - or 605W.
Now, if you're riding along at 605W and you can't get your heart rate to go "to max" then to be perfectly honest, you shouldn't be sat in your garage riding, you should be applying for a contract with Sky or BMC
Personally, rather than sticking it in the big gear and getting out of the saddle, I'd suggest that you ride in something more like the middle of the cassette, and work on your cadence - 80's a pretty low cadence, especially on indoor drills...
I'll admit, I've always been a bit of a big-gear-masher, and since the heart problems I've had, I've had to concentrate a little more on improving aerobic performance by upping my cadence... It's a slow job, but my cadence is gradually improving - faster leg speed means less effort each time I press on the cranks - even if I have to do more of them - but it's like lifting weights... you can either do 5 reps with 100kg, or 50 reps with 10kg. you've lifted the same weight in total, but one of them you'll be shaking like a leaf and aching afterwards, and the other, you'll barely notice...
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Well - As @ntnunk says, you're MHR for cycling will likely be between 5 and 10 beats lower than for running - that's just a given.
However, just to dig a little deeper re: the trainer
Just a short geeky calculation... Hold on, here comes the maths bit...
assuming a compact chainset and standard block, 50x11 combination top gear, at a cadence of 80rpm, thats a back wheel speed of 45.8kph (28.5mph)
Now, the powercurve for this trainer used to be published by Kurt Kinetic, but it appears that it's now been moved - it was linked at https://www.kurtkinetic.com/computer_tech.php but it's now gone...
however someone grabbed the formula and made a spreadsheet from it...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z_zSvmUpXMf-4pzpzBchgTpfM54pNo4KiN1o6hBhPsg/edit#gid=0
formula for calculation of the power required to turn your cranks at a given speed is
P = (5.244820) * S + (0.01968) * S^3
With S being Speed in Mph and P being Power in Watts
so - plug in a speed of 28.5mph and you get 149.47737 + 455.57478 - or 605W.
Now, if you're riding along at 605W and you can't get your heart rate to go "to max" then to be perfectly honest, you shouldn't be sat in your garage riding, you should be applying for a contract with Sky or BMC
Personally, rather than sticking it in the big gear and getting out of the saddle, I'd suggest that you ride in something more like the middle of the cassette, and work on your cadence - 80's a pretty low cadence, especially on indoor drills...
I'll admit, I've always been a bit of a big-gear-masher, and since the heart problems I've had, I've had to concentrate a little more on improving aerobic performance by upping my cadence... It's a slow job, but my cadence is gradually improving - faster leg speed means less effort each time I press on the cranks - even if I have to do more of them - but it's like lifting weights... you can either do 5 reps with 100kg, or 50 reps with 10kg. you've lifted the same weight in total, but one of them you'll be shaking like a leaf and aching afterwards, and the other, you'll barely notice...
I was going to say something similar about the cadence. I go about 80-85 when warming up, but most of my time in the trainer is up at 90 or higher. Get working on increasing your cadence.1 -
I love it when @TheBigYin starts breaking out the equations! Yes, I am in fact a nerd.assuming a compact chainset and standard block, 50x11 combination top gear, at a cadence of 80rpm, thats a back wheel speed of 45.8kph (28.5mph)
Now, the powercurve for this trainer used to be published by Kurt Kinetic, but it appears that it's now been moved - it was linked at https://www.kurtkinetic.com/computer_tech.php but it's now gone...
however someone grabbed the formula and made a spreadsheet from it...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1z_zSvmUpXMf-4pzpzBchgTpfM54pNo4KiN1o6hBhPsg/edit#gid=0
formula for calculation of the power required to turn your cranks at a given speed is
P = (5.244820) * S + (0.01968) * S^3
With S being Speed in Mph and P being Power in Watts
so - plug in a speed of 28.5mph and you get 149.47737 + 455.57478 - or 605W.Personally, rather than sticking it in the big gear and getting out of the saddle, I'd suggest that you ride in something more like the middle of the cassette, and work on your cadence - 80's a pretty low cadence, especially on indoor drills...
I'll admit, I've always been a bit of a big-gear-masher, and since the heart problems I've had, I've had to concentrate a little more on improving aerobic performance by upping my cadence... It's a slow job, but my cadence is gradually improving - faster leg speed means less effort each time I press on the cranks - even if I have to do more of them - but it's like lifting weights... you can either do 5 reps with 100kg, or 50 reps with 10kg. you've lifted the same weight in total, but one of them you'll be shaking like a leaf and aching afterwards, and the other, you'll barely notice...
There's a few other good reasons for doing this as well. First, low cadence, high force work is hard on your knees. You're transferring a bunch of force though joints that are already susceptible to damage. And if you're like most of us and no longer a spring chicken, the gentler you are on your knees the better. Hell, even if you are a spring chicken, the gentler on your knees the better.
Second, moving from low cadence, high force to high cadence, low force transfers some of the load from your muscles to your cardiovascular system. That alone will cause your HR to rise. But the bigger benefit is that "mashing" a big gear at a low cadence causes your quads to fatigue at a faster rate since more of your absolute power output is coming from torque vs. RPM. Spinning smaller gear at a higher cadence keeps your quads fresher for longer by allowing you to generate the same power but with your cardiovascular system taking more of the load. This is preferable because your cardio system doesn't fatigue the same way your legs do. It can take the load repeatedly, and recover faster, than your legs can.
Third, higher cadence allows you to respond much, much more quickly and with less effort to changes in speed, particularly in races and group rides. If you are following a wheel and a sudden acceleration happens while you're spinning an easier gear, you can quickly spin up, accelerate, and close the small gap. If you're mashing along in a big gear you'll have to expend a lot of energy getting that big gear up to speed, it'll take longer to match the acceleration, and you'll then have to stay "on the gas" longer to close the gap because it'll have gotten bigger during the time you were fighting to get the big gear up to speed.
Getting your "natural" cadence up can take time but it's definitely worth the effort. I started off as a "masher" too but after getting dropped from the group in crit race a couple of years ago (see the third point, above) my coach had me start working on it. I used to ride in the low to mid 80s, now if I'm not paying attention my cadence will sit in the mid to high 90s normally. The easiest way to accomplish this is to just start paying attention. When you ride, let your cadence settle to where it "wants" to be, then go one gear easier. You'll naturally feel yourself start to spin faster to keep from slowing down. Just keep doing that and you'll slowly adapt and before long you'll find yourself easily spinning much faster.
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Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »The strange thing about the trainer for me is that I can't get my heart rate up without getting off the seat. Riding off the seat on the trainer is different from when you are on the road, swaying the bike. Also, I feel like I could use more resistance when I'm really pumping. I'm already using the highest gear.
Might be worth looking at another trainer. Most can simulate a reasonable level of resistance (I think about 800W) so if anything it's usually easier to get your heart rate up and sustain it on the turbo than on the road.0 -
Well - As @ntnunk says, you're MHR for cycling will likely be between 5 and 10 beats lower than for running - that's just a given.
I am able to max my heart rate when riding on the road. Hoping to do so on the trainer as well. I think it will just take some practice.assuming a compact chainset and standard block, 50x11 combination top gear, at a cadence of 80rpm, thats a back wheel speed of 45.8kph (28.5mph)
When I'm riding at 80RPM, I'm in a gear that makes my speed 17MPH. When I'm out of the seat, my cadence drops to about 50RPM, and I'm barely doing better than 19MPH. No 28.5 for me!P = (5.244820) * S + (0.01968) * S^3
With S being Speed in Mph and P being Power in Watts
Many thanks for that formula! It puts my power at 185 watts or 160kcal/hour. The calorie consumption estimate by Wahoo is about 800kcal/hour. So my physiological efficiency is 20%.Personally, rather than sticking it in the big gear and getting out of the saddle, I'd suggest that you ride in something more like the middle of the cassette, and work on your cadence - 80's a pretty low cadence, especially on indoor drills...
That is an excellent suggestion. I have to focus to keep it even at 80. I have some work to do!
Best of luck with your training!
@smeakim1: I'm a bigger wimp than you. My "sprint" at 19MPH is only 2.8W/kg. (according to the formula posted by @TheBigYin.)
I really can't imagine that there's anything wrong with the trainer.
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