Alcohol & Carbs & T2D (cont'd. from Just BLEW UP the low carb life)
RalfLott
Posts: 5,036 Member
original thread here:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10453059/just-blew-up-the-low-carb-life#latest
Carrrying this over due to anticipated interest....
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10453059/just-blew-up-the-low-carb-life#latest
Carrrying this over due to anticipated interest....
Drinking too much is not necessarily an issue (unless you are on insulin - when it can cause hypos - or you want to drink beer or wine (rather than liquor) and your goal is specifically to remain in ketosis.
I use alcohol (typically a glass of moscato or riesling) when my meal pushes the carb limit. I can typically eat about 30 carbs more in a meal (total of 50 net) when I drink 5 oz of wine - since alcohol turns off the background liver release of glucose.
Now - I don't have a set daily carb limit. My carb limits are for the sole purpose of keeping my blood glucose within normal ranges at all times. Without alcohol that is about 20 grams in a 2 hour period; with alcohol I can do about 50 (including whatever carbs are in the alcohol). So for me (theoretically - since I've only tried it with wine), I could come very close to handling even the higher carb content you outlined.
If your goal is expressly to remain in ketogenesis (rather than to reap the diabetic benefits that eating low carb generates), your math will differ.
Hmmm. I think I must be missing something. I'm with you on the straight alcohol part. But when you start adding carbs, it seems counter-intuitive.....
According to your approach, shouldn't I be able to drink a high-carb sweet stout, along with a shot of whiskey and maybe even some candy, and keep my BG within normal ranges - not only while my liver's distracted by the alcohol, but also afterwards?
Focusing solely on the diabetes angle, every gram of carb has to be metabolized eventually (well, not counting fiber, etc.), and I would think that regardless of the alcohol, my pancreas would produce glucagon in response to the carbs, which due to my insulin resistance / delayed insulin release (since I'm T2D), would cause my BG to rise once my liver's done drinking. ??
Maybe your happy results are due to your being less insulin resistant/carb intolerant than I am (and already at your goal weight - congrats again!).
There are two sources for glucose in your blood: carbohydrates (and to a lesser degree protein), and your liver.
Your liver constantly dumps glucose into your bloodstream (to keep you from going hypo), unless it gets a signal to shut off the background glucose because there is incoming food. Most (all?) T2 diabetics are missing the 1st phase insulin response to food - a small spike that signals the liver to stop releasing glucose - so it just keeps pumping it out, even though it isn't needed.
So when you don't have a 1st phase insulin response, and are insulin resistant, your body really struggles not only to handle the glucose from food - but also the glucose your liver is still pumping out since it didn't get the shut-off message.
So since my 1st phase insulin response is broken, I occasionally use alcohol as an artificial replacement for that 1st phase - to tell the liver to shut down (taking advantage of the liver's one-track mind). So the carbs I eat (or drink) are still moved out of the bloodstream at whatever rate I process them (slower than someone with a "normal" metabolism) - but because I've shut off the background dump from my liver, my body ONLY has to process what I eat (not the extra coming from my liver). If my insulin can handle liver dump + 20 carbs, and I shut off the liver dump, the response can then handle additional carbs equivalent to the liver dump until the liver returns its attention to keeping me from going hypo and starts dumping again.
Think of it as rain (the carbs you eat) falling into a dry river (no liver-added glucose) v. rain falling into a river that is already close to overflowing its bank (the background glucose your liver pumps out). The first phase response (or alcohol, or metformin) temporarily dams up the river and makes it dry - so you can handle a larger rain (the carbs you eat).
As to whether this relates to basic liver function v. weight - my insulin resistance has gone from mildly diabetic to pre-diabetic, but not because of weight loss. That change was the result of 6 weeks on the blood sugar diet (BSD). The response was near instantaneous (~ day 2 or 3 on the diet), whereas there was no change in carb tolerance in correlation to the 48 lb weight loss that predated the BSD. The immediate drop in average BG levels happened again Monday when I restarted the BSD after a 2-3 month break at maintenance calories. I can - after the first 6-weeks on the BSD - consume a few more carbs (~23-25 grams) without going above 140. That change in the amount of carbs I can consume occurred very near the start of the BSD and persisted through the 2-3-month weight maintenance period (even though the lower average BG did not persist - i.e. no spikes above 140, but fasting BG and average pre-meal BG were higher during the maintenance period). But that additional tolerance is nowhere near the 150% more I can consume (temporarily) just by drinking a 5 oz glass of wine - which began as early as Thanskgiving when I accidentally discovered it (at ~180 lbs).
As an example - I ate an ear of corn tonight + 5 oz of wine (total of 40 carbs). My BG at 1 hour was 117, 94 at 2 hours, and 78 at 3 hours. I've tracked it as long as 5 hours (late November/early December), with the same results. During that same period an 18 carb meal of certain carbs spiked me to between 150 and 180.
So - as to your hypothetical - candy varies quite a bit, so I'll use pizza, the other food in your post. I could have a sweet stout (7.5 carb grams/12 oz) and - almost - 2 slices of thin crust pizza (44 carbs). Without the alcohol, I couldn't quite even have one piece of pizza. The liver only has to be distracted long enough for the insulin to move the glucose from the digested carbs out of of my bloodstream (that takes under 2 hours, as long as I don't spike above 140). Once the food-related glucose is gone (the river is dry again), and the dam opens up to refill the river with the glucose put out by the liver when it restarts, it isn't any fuller than it was before I temporarily dammed it up by having a drink.
Try an experiment yourself - since diabetes is not uniform from person to person. If you don't want to add carbs by testing a stout, test a shot of carbless liquor and see if your BG goes down.
The first few times I didn't eat any additional carbs (other than the wine). It was in the early days of carb counting. I had carefully counted the carbs in the meal and expected the added carbs in the wine to put me at the top of the BG range I was comfortable with. I was dumbfounded when it barely broke 100, since the food alone should have put me around 130. So I tried it again another day, with a sweeter wine - same results. Next I tried wine without food - and my BG fell to the mid-80s (even though it was a very sweet wine). After that, I started careful experimentation with adding carbs - which is how I know that my liver dumps background glucose equivalent to about 30 grams of carbs. All of this testing took place when I weighed ~180 lbs (17 lbs down from my starting weight, and 50 lbs ago from where I am now).
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This is very interesting and somewhat explains why the Mediterranean diet works so well and why Europeans, who drink with meals, are generally healthier; however, it does nothing to control cravings if you're using it to eat bad carbs.1
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This is very interesting and somewhat explains why the Mediterranean diet works so well and why Europeans, who drink with meals, are generally healthier; however, it does nothing to control cravings if you're using it to eat bad carbs.
Absolutely correct, as to the latter. (Personally, the absence of grain-based carbs causes cravings for me - as does the presence of sugar & some fats. If I eat bacon for breakfast, as an example, it's likely to set off a day of cravings. So, although it is fantastic from a management of diabetes perspective, from the perspect of managing cravings - a low-carb, high-fat diet is close to the worst design for me - and within the range of permitted foods, I still have to be very careful what I select - AND - regardless of what I put in my mouth, I still have to battle the cravings that come from the lack of grain-based carbs in my diet.)
As to the former, my experimentation has purely been in connection with management of my diabetes. The system is a very complex system - and my exploration has been very limited - so I don't know whether this particular mechanism is part of why the Mediterranean diet/drinking with meals works well. The body, as designed, doesn't need a manually controlled shut-off switch for the liver. In people without diabetes, it happens automatically when you take a bite of food. And, in people without diabetes, the amount of glucose put out by the liver is relatively insignificant compared to the amount consumed. For me, the lack of glucose coming from the liver more than doubles the carbs I can consume. But, by more than double - I mean I could add a single potato or a single slice of bread or nearly 2 thin crust slices of pizza on top of normal low carb meal. 30 carbs (what I gain by turning of my liver temporarily) would be within the meal to meal for most people without diabetes.
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Bump, stumble, trip....0
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So my taste for alcohol has all but disappeared. However, I may do some experimentation with dinner because my PP for lunch is great, but that is not always the case for dinner. I very rarely eat breakfast, so those are the only 2 meals for me to use. My employer would probably frown on me doing this experiment at lunch....at least during the week.1
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@neohdiver... What is the smallest serving size you can use for this effect? What is the least amount of alcohol that is necessary for this and does is the amount of 'extra' carbs allowed dependent on the serving size?
Interesting topic.
Just wondering in case @cstehansen (and the rest of us) can get away with a quick swallow at lunch during work hours, lol.1 -
Interesting and thank you because I had missed the original thread. For me as a T2 BG control is the important factor. I abstained while I was losing weight but once I got to where I wanted to be (I'm about 70% of the man pictured in my avatar photo) I tried adding alcohol back particularly a pre-dinner drink. I was surprised that it had no negative impact on glucose levels (on a good day I can stay in the 90s all day). Now you are telling me that it may even have a positive impact.
My last lab tests I had an A1C of 5.0. The PA said, "Just keep doing what you're doing." I guess I should have replied, "Skol!"4 -
A reason to go back to my gin and lime seltzer water. I thought alcohol caused an insulin response. Yeah. A cocktail before dinner sounds really good.1
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A couple rules of thumb (or maybe a couple fingers...) I picked these up somewhere in this forum.
1. Intersperse drinks with H20.
2. To minimize effects of alcohol, take vitamin C and a vitamin B-complex. (There are certain B vitamins that are important, but I, er, seem to have left my list at the pub..)
3. Don't drink where the horrible foods you used to mow through when quaffing are available without walking at least 3 miles, uphill.
Skol!3 -
A couple rules of thumb (or maybe a couple fingers...) I picked these up somewhere in this forum.
1. Intersperse drinks with H20.
2. To minimize effects of alcohol, take vitamin C and a vitamin B-complex. (There are certain B vitamins that are important, but I, er, seem to have left my list at the pub..)
3. Don't drink where the horrible foods you used to mow through when quaffing are available without walking at least 3 miles, uphill.
Skol!
For sure on that third item. All are good but that one is best.
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I ran a set of BG readings yesterday.
2:20 PM, 2 hour post lunch: BG 93.
5:05 PM, starting dinner prep and beer (Saranac Legacy IPA): BG 87.
5:50 PM, prep and beer finished: BG 134.
8:00 PM, post dinner: BG 94
6:45 AM: fasting BG 78.
I realize that 134 is not a horrible reading but some damage happens at that level.
I think I will try a similar run with red wine.1 -
Those look great.
The only tweak I might suggest is adding 1-hour post-meal measurements. Some people (uh, me) hit peak quite a bit sooner than 2 hours. Was that 16 or 12 oz. (36?)0 -
12 oz,
I agree that 1 hour reading can be instructive. Friday dinners can be busy at our house. Last night we had 2 kids, their spouses and 5 grand kids here. 8:00 PM was about when the kids settled down to watch a movie and grandpa had about 5 minutes before falling asleep in his chair. I suppose it's a lot like Blue Bloods except Friday rather than Sunday and Tom Selleck has aged a lot better than I have (and he's 2 years my senior).4 -
canadjineh wrote: »@neohdiver... What is the smallest serving size you can use for this effect? What is the least amount of alcohol that is necessary for this and does is the amount of 'extra' carbs allowed dependent on the serving size?
Interesting topic.
Just wondering in case @cstehansen (and the rest of us) can get away with a quick swallow at lunch during work hours, lol.
I haven't experimented with quantity of alcohol. My guess would be that the extra carbs are the same, but you would have to eat them faster. It's an on-off switch. But a smaller drink would take less time to process, so your liver wouild return to doing its job faster. I generally drink 5 oz.
If you want to experiment, find a time when you aren't about to eat anything else, and experiment. Test your blood ahead, then perhaps 30 minutes after drinking a small quantity. Your blood glucose should drop if you've diverted your liver's attention.1 -
KeithF6250 wrote: »12 oz,
I agree that 1 hour reading can be instructive. Friday dinners can be busy at our house. Last night we had 2 kids, their spouses and 5 grand kids here. 8:00 PM was about when the kids settled down to watch a movie and grandpa had about 5 minutes before falling asleep in his chair. I suppose it's a lot like Blue Bloods except Friday rather than Sunday and Tom Selleck has aged a lot better than I have (and he's 2 years my senior).
I'd call it abberrant and try again.
Meanwhile, get busy on that cookie duster!0 -
I gave it up in November. True low carbers know scotch and most things like that have zero carbs. Dry red wine has a few carbs. Unfortunately, good craft beers are very high in carbs. One Sierra Nevada Bigfoot has 38 carbs. I had 3 in one sitting which is about my weekly carb intake now. Moderation is the key. Enjoy!1
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Re: cookie duster. Tom Selleck and I have had facial hair for about the same amount of time. Currently I outdo him since I added a beard just over a year ago. However I look like a skinny Santa and he still looks like Magnum PI.3
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Ran another set tonight.
4:15 PM, Started dinner prep & a glass of red wine, BG: 84
5:00 PM, Finished wine, BG:87
6:30 PM, 1 hr post dinner, BG:114
7:30 PM, 2 hr post. BG 92
The wine was a 2014 Saracosa, a dry red deemed a "Super Tuscan." Dinner was my wife's creation: baked chicken, polenta, and creamed spinach. The polenta was a new recipe so I felt obligated to try a 1/2 cup. To protect against the carbs in the polenta I had a second glass of wine. I know, red wine with chicken but this was a "break the rules" night.
BG of 84 vs 87 is well within the test error margins. No demonstrated reduction but acceptable results. As far as the polenta, I would have rather had a piece of cornbread but the BG hit wasn't terrible. I guess I will have to repeat the beer test in the future.1 -
KeithF6250 wrote: »Ran another set tonight.
4:15 PM, Started dinner prep & a glass of red wine, BG: 84
5:00 PM, Finished wine, BG:87
6:30 PM, 1 hr post dinner, BG:114
7:30 PM, 2 hr post. BG 92
The wine was a 2014 Saracosa, a dry red deemed a "Super Tuscan." Dinner was my wife's creation: baked chicken, polenta, and creamed spinach. The polenta was a new recipe so I felt obligated to try a 1/2 cup. To protect against the carbs in the polenta I had a second glass of wine. I know, red wine with chicken but this was a "break the rules" night.
BG of 84 vs 87 is well within the test error margins. No demonstrated reduction but acceptable results. As far as the polenta, I would have rather had a piece of cornbread but the BG hit wasn't terrible. I guess I will have to repeat the beer test in the future.
Bravo!
(Keep us posted on your research.. )0 -
KeithF6250 wrote: »Re: cookie duster. Tom Selleck and I have had facial hair for about the same amount of time. Currently I outdo him since I added a beard just over a year ago. However I look like a skinny Santa and he still looks like Magnum PI.
If you had his makeup artist, you could look that way too. His job is to keep his good looks. He is not the best actor out there for sure. And I did love Magnum PI. He is just a one character actor and he does that in all his roles.0 -
Tonight's run was a little less controlled due to my wife's class at church and our daughter's problem getting a prescription filled. We decided that we would have a quick dinner followed by meeting our daughter at Planet Fitness.
Dinner had been in the crock pot all day, pork roast with sauerkraut. The Italian red didn't seem like the right beverage. I drank a Saranac Session Gen 4 IPA (the brewery is now in its 4th generation of brewing beer in Utica NY) concurrent with the meal. Probably more carbs on the beer than the food.
We then went to the gym, walked on treadmills for 30 minutes while daughter ranted to wife and returned home.
BG readings were 121 at 6 PM after meal and beer and 89 at 7 PM after trip to Planet Fitness. Not a well controlled study but real life.1 -
I was going to discontinue any further testing of a pre-dinner beer but yesterday when I was at the grocery I passed their St. Pat's display. They had Smithwick's (which they normally don't carry) with a $5 rebate. Further justification: my son-in-law would enjoy it.
Drank one (11.2 oz) during dinner prep. BG before dinner: 124.
Tonight I had a very generic wine (Franzia Dark Red blend) during dinner prep. BG before dinner: 87. I think a pre-dinner beer will have to remain a special treat for me. Further investigation is needed on the impact of wine on post dinner BG.1
This discussion has been closed.