Net versus total carbs Q (help please)

suzqtme

I downloaded the book Keto Clarity and have been spending some time reading it today. It noted that when doing keto that you should use total carbs and not net in calculating your daily carb balance.

I've been using net carbs. My weight loss has been variable since starting very low carb/keto:
April: -12.4 (not low carb yet)
May: -8.6 (low carb)
June: +1.4 (was experimenting with foods v blood sugar response but otherwise low carb)
July: -3.8 (keto)
August: -8.6 (keto)

This month, I have only lost 2.5 pounds so far and am anticipating another month like July.

My net carbs are typically under 5%, but total carbs vary and can be up to over 30 (16 is my 5%). Yesterday, total carb was 23 with 11 grams fiber. So by this, my carb intake was high by 7 gm. But I would be under at 12 using net carbs.

So how likely is it that using net carbs has slowed my weight loss b/c my total carb count is actually too high? Have others using net carbs noticed fluctuations or difficulty in taking off the weight or in lowering their fbs? I'm using 5:2 IF with 7 day fbs averaging. Oh, and I'm postmenopausal (but still a pretty hot babe )

Sunny_Bunny_

The idea of net carbs was originally introduced by Michael Eads in his book Protein Power as a way to encourage people to eat more green leafy vegetables. So, it really is only intended to subtract the fiber in green leafy vegetables. Not to subtract sugar alcohols or corn fiber added to protein bars for the sole purpose of creating a low net carb count.

kpk54

Why do you think your weight loss has slowed? You lost 8.6 pounds in August. September my be less but you've averaged 5 to 6 pounds per month. That's awesome! You won't lose the same every week or month.

I understand your "likely" question regarding gross/net carbs. I just don't understand the perception of "slowed my weight loss".

Sunny_Bunny_

I kinda skimmed the rest of that. @kpk54 is right though, your weight loss is totally typical regardless of your carb intake or counting style.
I've been no more than 5-10 total since April and have zero losses.

suzqtme

Thanks so much for your responses @Sunny_Bunny_ and @kpk54.

I'm extremely carb sensitive. I used to be able to eat 1/3 to 1/2 cup of a starchy carb (rice, peas, potato) per day and still lose some weight but now I wouldn't dream of eating any starchy carb or sugar if I wanted to lose weight. That was part of my weight gain in June as I was looking at how various foods affected my blood sugar (per Dr. Bernstein). I didn't experiment daily, just a couple times a week since it took 2 to 3 days for my fbs to drop back down. That was enough to cause a net gain for the month.

So my concern is counting net versus total carbs both for weight loss and general health by staying in ketosis. I've dropped out of ketosis and not been able to figure out why, but perhaps it was my total carb count being too high for me. Thanks Sunny_Bunny_ for the info about the origin of that practice. I will try applying net carb to my greens but not my other carbs (yum, just about to go out and harvest my first and only brussel sprout plant!).

When you have over a hundred pounds to lose, 4 pounds a month vs 8 pounds a month can make a big difference. I have MS and also lost my vision in one eye and part of my vision in the other following dropless cataract surgery less than a year ago (post operative hemorrhagic occlusive retinal vasculitis - literally 1 in 8 million risk). Lots of physical challenges and getting the weight off is important. I do fall at times, and it is difficult to get back up standing if I am alone. I crawl to something I can use to pull myself up with. I fell downtown in a parking lot and had to crawl 10 feet. No one was around - and who would want to help a 240 pound women up anyway. Also have at least one more vitrectomy or possibly actual removal of my eye in the coming months. At the last surgery on my eye, the head of anesthesiology told me I was too fat and that is why the drug they use on me for twilight sleep makes me feel sick (after I requested they use a different med). So lots of stuff going into the desire to see the scale move. Ok, off my rant now.

Sunny_Bunny_

It sounds like you could benefit from trying to reach the therapeutic levels of ketones. Which, will certainly be more challenging with insulin resistance, but can definitely be done.
I think only subtracting the green veg fiber should help and trying not to use artificial sweeteners if you do, or at least as little as possible. There are some theories about the taste of sweetness, regardless of calorie content having an ability to create a first phase insulin response. Which, in the absence of actual carbs would have to be corrected by liver glycogen, which would then trigger a second phase insulin response. I know some people say that smelling sweets even causes blood sugar issues, and it's the same theory. Unproven as far as I know, but I know I've gotten a growling belly plenty of times in the past from just smelling it, and one thing I know for sure is that insulin triggers hunger.
Anyway, I hope you start to get things going more steadily with your adjustments but don't forget, even though you still have 100 to lose, doesn't mean there won't be times that you do actually lose a great deal of fat that shows up in photos or tape measure but not on the scale right away. So, keep adjusting and listening to your body, and using your tools but don't let the scale be the loudest talker.

Anaaremade

I was having a bit of an issue with losing pounds too. I found a site that gave me a bit more insight into what was going on. I was eating too much protein and too much can be turned into glucose.

I use the calculator on the site to let me know when I'm above the minimum Anti ketogenic level (you can read about AK's on the site) and use it to determine where I am during the day and determine what I should eat later on, in conjunction with MFP, to prevent my body from storing the protein. I find it absolutely wonderful. I use it in conjunction with keto strips. I almost threw myself out of ketosis last night. I used the calculator and increased my fat intake. This morning my ketone level increased. I'm still fairly new to ketosis and I know even a small amount of ketones means your still in ketosis, but my levels prior to yesterday were high up until last night. Which is when I had just a bit too many proteins late afternoon. I topped off the night with a fatbomb (actually a few). Here is the link:

http://www.mydreamshape.com/keto-calculator/

Btw,
I haven't looked into other parts of the site, but I can say with certainty that this calculator has worked for me since I began using it.

auntstephie321

Both your net and total carb count are well within the lowest of carb ranges without going full carnivore. Your weight loss has been really impressive. I don't see any area for concern. Keep doing what you're doing it's working well.

Anaaremade

I forgot to add, I go by net carbs.

suzqtme

@Sunny_Bunny_ for the encouragement. I have degrees in medical technology and biochemistry but have been amazed many times on this site about all the things I don't know or have forgotten. My specialty was in toxicology, primarily street drugs, drug monitoring, etc., pill and powder analysis, etc. I think therapeutic ketosis is where I need to be aiming. I discussed the breath ketone analyzer with DH today and may purchase one in the next couple of months to monitor my ketones as well as my fbs. So many neuro diseases are shown to improve with ketosis, but MS is a weird disease. It relapses and then remits (at least the most common form), so improvement may be due to whatever change you made or simply due to the nature of the disease.

@Anaaremade, I will check out the website. In Keto Clarity, there is a website mentioned that, by logging your day's macros, will tell you where you are at (at least approximately) with ketosis. Today I was thinking about my protein intake and if it might be a bit too high for me. I really feel full at the end of the day.

Thanks @auntstephie321, sometimes I forget that progress is progress.

Today I ended with too a few too many carbs, but it was my B-day and I made good choices all day. Ate out for both meals today. No sugar, no gluten, no starches. Added fats. And a really, really, really, good red wine, lol. Did I mention it was a good red wine?

Again, thanks to everyone.

kpk54

Happy Birthday, @suzqtme !

Anaaremade

@suzqtme I've recently read that book. I find out of all the things I've read about regarding Ketogenics, that one spoke to me more. Exposing the ignorance and plain egregious corporate greed when it comes to peoples' health, and speaking about not only the short term, but long term nutritional ketogenics.

suzqtme

Thanks @kpk54!

@Annaremade, this book is really helpful so far. I'm not even halfway done so a long way to go. Best is that it is written so hubby can understand it (he is reading it, too). I agree RE corporate greed, but also that our gov't created the policies that have led to the poor health of Americans and also people around the world whose govt's embraced the "American" diet way.

macchiatto

I think you have to experiment to see what works for you. For me I find that 20-30 net is really good for weight loss. 35 is usually good. If I get to 40-50 net, weight loss usually slows way down, but it works for maintenance. YMMV.

moonlights

Have you tried googling twilight sleep? A lot of doctors are fatphobic and will use your weight as an excuse for literally anything you complain about so I'm wary of what you were told - if you want a different sedation you should be given it. I am allergic to morphine which causes problems but they can't give me something I'm allergic to!

I'm so sorry to hear about your cateract surgeries. I have early onset cataracts (age 30) and I'm pretty frightened about it.

I really hope you manage to find a surgeon to help you, always get extra opinions if you can.

Weight loss does fluctuate - check your calories and the food you're eating as well as your macros. You could be sensitive to eg dairy or nuts. I seem to go through different sensitivities at different times. Good luck x