How Alcohol Interrupts Fat Burning Metabolism
Options
Replies
-
I adore wine with dinner. For me, having a glass while cooking and catching up on the day with hubs, and having another during dinner is divine.
I had wine often when I was losing. (I was in my 30s then).
I do wonder if my lovely dinner ritual is why I can't lose the stubborn 5 I gained with MENOPAUSE.
I think I'll do an experiment this week. I say this week because I'm about to go on a work trip, and work trips always involve wine.
As for the carbs: I'm not low carb but do know dry wines have pretty reasonable carb counts. A glass of sauvignon blanc has 3 grams.4 -
I do so love my 4 ounces of dry wine with dinner. Perhaps, I should rethink that. Very interesting discussion folks!0
-
Foamroller wrote: »Alcohol (ethanol) is perceived as a poison to get rid of ASAP. Thus the liver stops making both glucose and ketones WHILE BUSY processing the alcohol, AFAIK. I suspect the duration this happens is correlated to volume of alcoholic intake. The body also stops lipolysis during alcohol influence. Cause again the body is busy getting rid of alcohol. Meaning if you go to a party, get hammered and then get the late night munchies...you're metabolically enhancing the chance for gaining net fat. This is possibly why the typical alcoholic body is a skinny fat type with stick legs and beer belly. When drinking a lot, you basically starve the body for nutrients, while providing excess energy to be stored as fat in and around organs.
Thanks, @Foamroller.
So.... what pathway did the sugars and other carbs follow to enhance your belly fat (from the bag of Doritos and liter of Coke you choked down while your liver was working on the alcohol)?
It's the same sugar road as always
The problem as I understand it is that alcohol overwhelms the liver with jobs to do. Plus as Dr. Westman pointed out in the keto summit about stalling, alcohol has quite a good deal of calories as well, adding another energy load on top of the Doritos and Coke, or insert kebab/pizza etc. If people are in a energy deficit, drinking won't impact fat loss. But if in slight energy surplus, the alcohol partitions calories in a negative way, if I understood the biochem correctly.
Another interesting thing is that alcohol absolutely drives up hunger immensely. I don't know if this is increased insulin, ghrelin or something else completely. Or if it's depleting salt and fat in such a way we feel we HAVE TO munch on something fatty and salty. This craving is not just when drunk but even more the day after as well. If anyone knows about this please post!
Edit: In one of the latest episodes of 2ketodudes, Carl Franklin admits stopping alcohol also stopped his weight loss stall. He started losing fat again. So there's anecdotes for ya.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »I adore wine with dinner. For me, having a glass while cooking and catching up on the day with hubs, and having another during dinner is divine.
I had wine often when I was losing. (I was in my 30s then).
I do wonder if my lovely dinner ritual is why I can't lose the stubborn 5 I gained with MENOPAUSE.
I think I'll do an experiment this week. I say this week because I'm about to go on a work trip, and work trips always involve wine.
As for the carbs: I'm not low carb but do know dry wines have pretty reasonable carb counts. A glass of sauvignon blanc has 3 grams.
@LolaDeeDaisy23 - FYI, re: your question about wine carbs the other day. ^^1 -
Wow, y'all have had a lot of awesome discussion here. My head is rolling as an insulin resistant person...who is not yet to the point of diabetes, but because of having no gallbladder, I think I was way overworking my liver for a long time (with bile production and such), and so this has me wondering with the addition of acids and enzymes if my liver will begin working better (even though no tests I know of yet had shown problems), if my overall metabolic function will improve?
I know that the addition of l-glutamine seems to be helping somewhat with my IR, but I'm struggling to understand if it is working as intended. I think I've shared the links privately with a few folks... but I'll dig it up and share here, too, because it might help some folks within this discussion...0 -
Thanks for the interesting article.0
-
Foamroller wrote: »Foamroller wrote: »Alcohol (ethanol) is perceived as a poison to get rid of ASAP. Thus the liver stops making both glucose and ketones WHILE BUSY processing the alcohol, AFAIK. I suspect the duration this happens is correlated to volume of alcoholic intake. The body also stops lipolysis during alcohol influence. Cause again the body is busy getting rid of alcohol. Meaning if you go to a party, get hammered and then get the late night munchies...you're metabolically enhancing the chance for gaining net fat. This is possibly why the typical alcoholic body is a skinny fat type with stick legs and beer belly. When drinking a lot, you basically starve the body for nutrients, while providing excess energy to be stored as fat in and around organs.
Thanks, @Foamroller.
So.... what pathway did the sugars and other carbs follow to enhance your belly fat (from the bag of Doritos and liter of Coke you choked down while your liver was working on the alcohol)?
It's the same sugar road as always The problem as I understand it is that alcohol overwhelms the liver with jobs to do. Plus as Dr. Westman pointed out in the keto summit about stalling, alcohol has quite a good deal of calories as well, adding another energy load on top of the Doritos and Coke, or insert kebab/pizza etc. If people are in a energy deficit, drinking won't impact fat loss. But if in slight energy surplus, the alcohol partitions calories in a negative way, if I understood the biochem correctly.
Another interesting thing is that alcohol absolutely drives up hunger immensely. I don't know if this is increased insulin, ghrelin or something else completely. Or if it's depleting salt and fat in such a way we feel we HAVE TO munch on something fatty and salty. This craving is not just when drunk but even more the day after as well. If anyone knows about this please post!
Edit: In one of the latest episodes of 2ketodudes, Carl Franklin admits stopping alcohol also stopped his weight loss stall. He started losing fat again. So there's anecdotes for ya.
So... do the Doritos, Coke, and....truffles go through your liver or straight to your biceps? (And if carbs don't go through your liver, how the heck does your liver use the glucagon and insulin sent by your pancreas, among other agents, to regulate blood glucose?)
1 -
Foamroller wrote: »Foamroller wrote: »Alcohol (ethanol) is perceived as a poison to get rid of ASAP. Thus the liver stops making both glucose and ketones WHILE BUSY processing the alcohol, AFAIK. I suspect the duration this happens is correlated to volume of alcoholic intake. The body also stops lipolysis during alcohol influence. Cause again the body is busy getting rid of alcohol. Meaning if you go to a party, get hammered and then get the late night munchies...you're metabolically enhancing the chance for gaining net fat. This is possibly why the typical alcoholic body is a skinny fat type with stick legs and beer belly. When drinking a lot, you basically starve the body for nutrients, while providing excess energy to be stored as fat in and around organs.
Thanks, @Foamroller.
So.... what pathway did the sugars and other carbs follow to enhance your belly fat (from the bag of Doritos and liter of Coke you choked down while your liver was working on the alcohol)?
It's the same sugar road as always The problem as I understand it is that alcohol overwhelms the liver with jobs to do. Plus as Dr. Westman pointed out in the keto summit about stalling, alcohol has quite a good deal of calories as well, adding another energy load on top of the Doritos and Coke, or insert kebab/pizza etc. If people are in a energy deficit, drinking won't impact fat loss. But if in slight energy surplus, the alcohol partitions calories in a negative way, if I understood the biochem correctly.
Another interesting thing is that alcohol absolutely drives up hunger immensely. I don't know if this is increased insulin, ghrelin or something else completely. Or if it's depleting salt and fat in such a way we feel we HAVE TO munch on something fatty and salty. This craving is not just when drunk but even more the day after as well. If anyone knows about this please post!
Edit: In one of the latest episodes of 2ketodudes, Carl Franklin admits stopping alcohol also stopped his weight loss stall. He started losing fat again. So there's anecdotes for ya.
So @Foamroller and @midwesterner85, do the Doritos, Coke, and....truffles go through your liver or straight to your biceps? (And if not through your liver, how the heck does your liver regulate blood glucose using the glucagon and insulin sent by your pancreas, among other agents?)1 -
Foamroller wrote: »Foamroller wrote: »Alcohol (ethanol) is perceived as a poison to get rid of ASAP. Thus the liver stops making both glucose and ketones WHILE BUSY processing the alcohol, AFAIK. I suspect the duration this happens is correlated to volume of alcoholic intake. The body also stops lipolysis during alcohol influence. Cause again the body is busy getting rid of alcohol. Meaning if you go to a party, get hammered and then get the late night munchies...you're metabolically enhancing the chance for gaining net fat. This is possibly why the typical alcoholic body is a skinny fat type with stick legs and beer belly. When drinking a lot, you basically starve the body for nutrients, while providing excess energy to be stored as fat in and around organs.
Thanks, @Foamroller.
So.... what pathway did the sugars and other carbs follow to enhance your belly fat (from the bag of Doritos and liter of Coke you choked down while your liver was working on the alcohol)?
It's the same sugar road as always The problem as I understand it is that alcohol overwhelms the liver with jobs to do. Plus as Dr. Westman pointed out in the keto summit about stalling, alcohol has quite a good deal of calories as well, adding another energy load on top of the Doritos and Coke, or insert kebab/pizza etc. If people are in a energy deficit, drinking won't impact fat loss. But if in slight energy surplus, the alcohol partitions calories in a negative way, if I understood the biochem correctly.
Another interesting thing is that alcohol absolutely drives up hunger immensely. I don't know if this is increased insulin, ghrelin or something else completely. Or if it's depleting salt and fat in such a way we feel we HAVE TO munch on something fatty and salty. This craving is not just when drunk but even more the day after as well. If anyone knows about this please post!
Edit: In one of the latest episodes of 2ketodudes, Carl Franklin admits stopping alcohol also stopped his weight loss stall. He started losing fat again. So there's anecdotes for ya.
So @Foamroller and @midwesterner85, do the Doritos, Coke, and....truffles go through your liver or straight to your biceps? (And if not through your liver, how the heck does your liver regulate blood glucose using the glucagon and insulin sent by your pancreas, among other agents?)
Neither. The carbs go into your blood stream as glucose first. Glucagon causes your liver to release glycogen. Insulin removes glucose from blood without the liver's involvement. Your liver does not regulate BG. It does play a part by releasing glycogen to raise BG as needed, but it is a player in BG, not the coach.3 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »Foamroller wrote: »Foamroller wrote: »Alcohol (ethanol) is perceived as a poison to get rid of ASAP. Thus the liver stops making both glucose and ketones WHILE BUSY processing the alcohol, AFAIK. I suspect the duration this happens is correlated to volume of alcoholic intake. The body also stops lipolysis during alcohol influence. Cause again the body is busy getting rid of alcohol. Meaning if you go to a party, get hammered and then get the late night munchies...you're metabolically enhancing the chance for gaining net fat. This is possibly why the typical alcoholic body is a skinny fat type with stick legs and beer belly. When drinking a lot, you basically starve the body for nutrients, while providing excess energy to be stored as fat in and around organs.
Thanks, @Foamroller.
So.... what pathway did the sugars and other carbs follow to enhance your belly fat (from the bag of Doritos and liter of Coke you choked down while your liver was working on the alcohol)?
It's the same sugar road as always The problem as I understand it is that alcohol overwhelms the liver with jobs to do. Plus as Dr. Westman pointed out in the keto summit about stalling, alcohol has quite a good deal of calories as well, adding another energy load on top of the Doritos and Coke, or insert kebab/pizza etc. If people are in a energy deficit, drinking won't impact fat loss. But if in slight energy surplus, the alcohol partitions calories in a negative way, if I understood the biochem correctly.
Another interesting thing is that alcohol absolutely drives up hunger immensely. I don't know if this is increased insulin, ghrelin or something else completely. Or if it's depleting salt and fat in such a way we feel we HAVE TO munch on something fatty and salty. This craving is not just when drunk but even more the day after as well. If anyone knows about this please post!
Edit: In one of the latest episodes of 2ketodudes, Carl Franklin admits stopping alcohol also stopped his weight loss stall. He started losing fat again. So there's anecdotes for ya.
So @Foamroller and @midwesterner85, do the Doritos, Coke, and....truffles go through your liver or straight to your biceps? (And if not through your liver, how the heck does your liver regulate blood glucose using the glucagon and insulin sent by your pancreas, among other agents?)
Neither. The carbs go into your blood stream as glucose first. Glucagon causes your liver to release glycogen. Insulin removes glucose from blood without the liver's involvement. Your liver does not regulate BG. It does play a part by releasing glycogen to raise BG as needed, but it is a player in BG, not the coach.
Maybe I misunderstood something. But when watching Jeff Keyte's medical lectures for medical students on YT on Energetics or Metabolism (I forgot which), he said the liver is the general. I took it as that the liver decides which molecules will be made out of what the intestines broke down. So I think most energy substrates pass the liver on their merry way to become some other molecule.
Carbs do a pre intestine breakdown already in the mouth, though. Remember how just thinking of a sour apple makes you salivate? It's the body getting ready for carbs! That's probably connected to the amylase gene or lack of it. I suspect people who lack or have very little amylase anticipation also have lower carb tolerance. The amylase thingy kinda makes the glucose spike into rather a step ladder than a big glucose bomb once the carbs hit the intestines. Less glucose spike = less insulin needed later. Everything in the body is regulated on ever more complex games of "If P, then Q".
Please correct me if I'm wrong, lol.1 -
Foamroller wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Foamroller wrote: »Foamroller wrote: »Alcohol (ethanol) is perceived as a poison to get rid of ASAP. Thus the liver stops making both glucose and ketones WHILE BUSY processing the alcohol, AFAIK. I suspect the duration this happens is correlated to volume of alcoholic intake. The body also stops lipolysis during alcohol influence. Cause again the body is busy getting rid of alcohol. Meaning if you go to a party, get hammered and then get the late night munchies...you're metabolically enhancing the chance for gaining net fat. This is possibly why the typical alcoholic body is a skinny fat type with stick legs and beer belly. When drinking a lot, you basically starve the body for nutrients, while providing excess energy to be stored as fat in and around organs.
Thanks, @Foamroller.
So.... what pathway did the sugars and other carbs follow to enhance your belly fat (from the bag of Doritos and liter of Coke you choked down while your liver was working on the alcohol)?
It's the same sugar road as always The problem as I understand it is that alcohol overwhelms the liver with jobs to do. Plus as Dr. Westman pointed out in the keto summit about stalling, alcohol has quite a good deal of calories as well, adding another energy load on top of the Doritos and Coke, or insert kebab/pizza etc. If people are in a energy deficit, drinking won't impact fat loss. But if in slight energy surplus, the alcohol partitions calories in a negative way, if I understood the biochem correctly.
Another interesting thing is that alcohol absolutely drives up hunger immensely. I don't know if this is increased insulin, ghrelin or something else completely. Or if it's depleting salt and fat in such a way we feel we HAVE TO munch on something fatty and salty. This craving is not just when drunk but even more the day after as well. If anyone knows about this please post!
Edit: In one of the latest episodes of 2ketodudes, Carl Franklin admits stopping alcohol also stopped his weight loss stall. He started losing fat again. So there's anecdotes for ya.
So @Foamroller and @midwesterner85, do the Doritos, Coke, and....truffles go through your liver or straight to your biceps? (And if not through your liver, how the heck does your liver regulate blood glucose using the glucagon and insulin sent by your pancreas, among other agents?)
Neither. The carbs go into your blood stream as glucose first. Glucagon causes your liver to release glycogen. Insulin removes glucose from blood without the liver's involvement. Your liver does not regulate BG. It does play a part by releasing glycogen to raise BG as needed, but it is a player in BG, not the coach.
Maybe I misunderstood something. But when watching Jeff Keyte's medical lectures for medical students on YT on Energetics or Metabolism (I forgot which), he said the liver is the general. I took it as that the liver decides which molecules will be made out of what the intestines broke down. So I think most energy substrates pass the liver on their merry way to become some other molecule.
Carbs do a pre intestine breakdown already in the mouth, though. Remember how just thinking of a sour apple makes you salivate? It's the body getting ready for carbs! That's probably connected to the amylase gene or lack of it. I suspect people who lack or have very little amylase anticipation also have lower carb tolerance. The amylase thingy kinda makes the glucose spike into rather a step ladder than a big glucose bomb once the carbs hit the intestines. Less glucose spike = less insulin needed later. Everything in the body is regulated on ever more complex games of "If P, then Q".
Please correct me if I'm wrong, lol.
It is equally possible that I am wrong, but my understanding is that carbs become glucose without the liver. I know that hard candy raises glucose (and contains calories because of this intake of carbs) because capillaries near / in cheeks and gums soak up the simple sugars. For carbs ingested, it is my understanding that they are absorbed into the blood stream as glucose through intestine walls. They don't go through the liver. The important factor is that the carbs that can be broken down (net carbs) need to be broken down to a single-unit carb (monosaccharides) aka glucose. Saliva can do this alone with simple carbs, or at least gets that process started for more complex carbs. Stomach acid will finish that process and then the glucose just needs to move into blood. It doesn't have to go through the liver to get to blood.1 -
- All glucose goes through the liver, whether from diet or glycogenolysis/gluconeogenesis, so the liver can maintain glucose homeostasis (by reacting to glucagon, insulin, cortisol, etc);
Dietary glucose that your body uses immediately for energy doesn't go through the liver. It starts being broken down in the mouth, and the process is finished in the first part of the small intestine. What you need for immediate energy is absorbed directly out of the gut into the bloodstream. That process continues, whether your liver is otherwise occupied or not.
Excess glucose that ends up in your liver, in a different form, for storage until you need it.
2 -
0
-
KnitOrMiss wrote: »[quote="neohdiver;37826040
@neohdiver between this comment above, and @RalfLott using it to manage dawn phenomenon, this has me wondering if it is partially the fat burning process overnight that triggers the dawn phenomenon - or somehow contributes to better insulin sensitivity? There has to be something if two folks of random age/gender/metabolism breakdowns find very related reactions...
I just posted this because it was presented as fact. I was just wondering if anyone had articles of scientific studies or anything...
I don't have a scientific study to post here, but I have noted that each time I have a glass of red wine, it is followed by one to two days of significantly lower fbs. In fact, I had decided that to make sure I had a lower fbs when I see my doc for yearly physical in Dec., I will be taking a 3 mile hike the morning before as well as do an IF day. Then, with my evening meal have a glass of red wine. Those 3 things should, with my current numbers - keep slowly falling- have me around a 90 when I go in for my labs.
Didn't know this is something experienced by others.
3 -
- All glucose goes through the liver, whether from diet or glycogenolysis/gluconeogenesis, so the liver can maintain glucose homeostasis (by reacting to glucagon, insulin, cortisol, etc);
Dietary glucose that your body uses immediately for energy doesn't go through the liver. It starts being broken down in the mouth, and the process is finished in the first part of the small intestine. What you need for immediate energy is absorbed directly out of the gut into the bloodstream. That process continues, whether your liver is otherwise occupied or not.
Excess glucose that ends up in your liver, in a different form, for storage until you need it.
So... Your liver gets involved only as a warehouser to (attempt to) put glucose into, or retrieve it from, storage in the muscles, fat cells, or liver itself?2 -
- All glucose goes through the liver, whether from diet or glycogenolysis/gluconeogenesis, so the liver can maintain glucose homeostasis (by reacting to glucagon, insulin, cortisol, etc);
Dietary glucose that your body uses immediately for energy doesn't go through the liver. It starts being broken down in the mouth, and the process is finished in the first part of the small intestine. What you need for immediate energy is absorbed directly out of the gut into the bloodstream. That process continues, whether your liver is otherwise occupied or not.
Excess glucose that ends up in your liver, in a different form, for storage until you need it.
So... Your liver gets involved only as a warehouser to (attempt to) put glucose into, or retrieve it from, storage in the muscles, fat cells, or liver itself?
That has been my understanding, and as with many things in life, the liver tends to over-react and the pendulum goes too far when releasing more glucose into the bloodstream.0 -
KnitOrMiss wrote: »[quote="neohdiver;37826040
@neohdiver between this comment above, and @RalfLott using it to manage dawn phenomenon, this has me wondering if it is partially the fat burning process overnight that triggers the dawn phenomenon - or somehow contributes to better insulin sensitivity? There has to be something if two folks of random age/gender/metabolism breakdowns find very related reactions...
I just posted this because it was presented as fact. I was just wondering if anyone had articles of scientific studies or anything...
I don't have a scientific study to post here, but I have noted that each time I have a glass of red wine, it is followed by one to two days of significantly lower fbs. In fact, I had decided that to make sure I had a lower fbs when I see my doc for yearly physical in Dec., I will be taking a 3 mile hike the morning before as well as do an IF day. Then, with my evening meal have a glass of red wine. Those 3 things should, with my current numbers - keep slowly falling- have me around a 90 when I go in for my labs.
Didn't know this is something experienced by others.
I would guess the IF and exercise contribute more to the lower FBG than 1 glass of red wine.
FYI: I remembered wrong about the 2ketodudes above. It was the Australian who shook his stall. But he also cut down on nuts and did a multiple day fasting along with cutting out alcohol. So who knows what stalled him. Anyway, it worked for him. He talks about it in the Protein Controversy episode. Very good episode btw!1 -
cstehansen wrote: »
- All glucose goes through the liver, whether from diet or glycogenolysis/gluconeogenesis, so the liver can maintain glucose homeostasis (by reacting to glucagon, insulin, cortisol, etc);
Dietary glucose that your body uses immediately for energy doesn't go through the liver. It starts being broken down in the mouth, and the process is finished in the first part of the small intestine. What you need for immediate energy is absorbed directly out of the gut into the bloodstream. That process continues, whether your liver is otherwise occupied or not.
Excess glucose that ends up in your liver, in a different form, for storage until you need it.
So... Your liver gets involved only as a warehouser to (attempt to) put glucose into, or retrieve it from, storage in the muscles, fat cells, or liver itself?
That has been my understanding, and as with many things in life, the liver tends to over-react and the pendulum goes too far when releasing more glucose into the bloodstream.
I think more than overreacting, the intricate communication system is broken, so no one told it that there was incoming food so it is trying its best to keep you out of a hypo.
The first phase insulin response that normally gives a shout-out to the liver that there is incoming food, so it should shut down, is one of the first things to break with T2 diabetes (and one of the measures used to determine whether you are inremission v. controlled by diet). When things are working properly, you take a bite of food, your pancreas releases a small insulin spike, and the liver responds by stopping the glucose release (when there's incoming food, it doesn't need to send out the glucose that keeps you from having a hypo). So, in diabetics, you always have the liver released glucose on top if the digested glucose, and your body can't keep up with moving it out of your bloodstream. So the way I view having a glass of wine is as an artificial replacement for the broken first phase insulin response.2 -
<refresh>0
-
Wow, this needed that bump up @RalfLott, lots of good info. I seemed to have missed this discussion totally when it was new. This should be in the stickies IMHO, @baconslave.0
