Still trying to figure out the delicate balance of TDEE
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misskitty0816
Posts: 49 Member
Still trying to figure out a few things, and grateful for all of the resources here who have helped me navigate these new waters so far 
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Here is where I am:
- Was eating 1300-1350 calories FOREVER and maintaining weight I was happy with, but started EM2WL for purposes of wanting to increase metabolism and eat MORE than 1300 calories.
- Have been eating 1500 for the last month, increasing protein, added strength training (class format so I am doing it RIGHT) 2 X a week for 1 hour, continuing cardio 3 X a week of 20 min HITT
- TDEE on the calculator posted on this site was 1794 based on variables input; After metabolic test in dietitian's office, it is calculated at 1500 per day (wow, a difference of 294)
So my questions -
1. I gained eating on 1500 calories per day (total of 2 pounds), which seems to be stable over the last two weeks; have been eating that for 4 weeks now. If my TDEE *is* 1500 like the test showed, shouldn't I have NOT gained on that since I should have "zeroed out" with calories in/calories out?
2. Do I go up in calories now trying to get to the 1794 or do I stick with 1500 which is what my test calculated as my TDEE?
I am really confused how someone can GAIN when eating their TDEE - the math just doesn't add up. AND what does that mean I should do from here? I'm sure I am asking a really dumb question here, so please be patient. I'm learning
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The office test was RMR - not TDEE.
There is NO good way to measure TDEE, always an estimate.
So they measured RMR, and just like any other TDEE calculator - used the tested RMR as basis to estimate TDEE, based on averages and your/their decision of activity. Should be more accurate estimate though.
And this would be potential TDEE, not literal TDEE, which could be suppressed or just genetically lower (though usually within 5% unless medical reasons).
The first way your body conserves energy is NOT by lowering RMR, or metabolism.
It reduces your daily activity, you fidget and move less. Workouts become less calorie burners happens here too.
If that doesn't work enough to preserve enough calories for base metabolism - then higher level functions slowed down - heat production, hair/nair/skin growth, ect. That may not even be noticed unless extreme enough for hair to fall out or always cold.
During this time of slowing down as adaptation to undereating, a diet with no resistance training is going to fail to retain muscle mass, it will be lost. Shoot, even a loss of LBM will slow down metabolism.
So in essence you were told and estimated your potential TDEE (1800 or 1500) - and you started eating that. Obviously as an estimate it could be off anyway.
Your literal TDEE was of course whatever you were eating and not gaining/losing weight, which was lower, and obviously suppressed. So around 1350 avg.
So you were eating in surplus for however long it took your body to decide to speed up daily activity - surplus means fat stored, unless good strength training making some muscle gains too, or just LBM gains from more exercise.
But we are talking about ONLY 150 more to reach 1500 - so likely not much fat or muscle - water weight. Purely on calories it would take 23 weeks to change 1 lb - so very much water weight.
When people start a diet and lose 5 lbs the first week - how is that possible if only eating say 500 deficit daily, and should only be 1 lb weekly?
Once you understand these things, so much easier to not be concerned about fluctuations.
Also, you likely have a literal change of BMR through the month still, even if slightly less, and some changes of hormones to mess with water weight anyway.
Water weight has no relation to calories eaten. Sodium and carbs sure, but not calories in general.1 -
@heybales - YES, the test was RMR (thanks to you, I now know the difference between BMR and RMR:))) , but when she gave me the results, there was "RMR" on one column, then "TDEE" in another - which was the RMR PLUS an estimate of my daily activities PLUS any exercise AVERAGED over the week - so three numbers were factored into the TDEE she gave me. You are saying that the directly measured figure of those three was the RMR and that the other two were estimated? That would make sense................ and since it is an estimate, then of course there may be some variability. Makes perfect sense.
I also get that about how could someone lose 5 pounds in one week - mathematically impossible to truly lose that much in a week, yet it is possible for it to appear that way on the scale. Same with gaining two pounds overnight. i totally get that.
The missing piece for me is about my current weight and the 1500 calorie level I have worked up to..........is this is my CURRENT TDEE since I have stayed at this weight now for about a month at the new calorie level? And my new weight that I should expect to stay at for this TDEE - or will the weight (water or whatever fluctuation is from) eventually go back down to what it was before? If my "predicted" TDEE is still 1794, then I still have a suppressed TDEE just not as suppressed as before, correct? And at that new TDEE, would I expect to weight a few pounds more or would I ever go back to my original weight?
I know what I want to ask and am afraid I am not doing a good job of it
(( I hope this made sense. 0 -
Makes total sense.
Is 1500 your potential TDEE, because your weight isn't changing now?
(potential, meaning body has not adapted slower, burning as high as it can)
Was avg 1325 your potential TDEE, because your weight wasn't changing then either, right?
No. Why?
Because you ate more than that and after water weight gain, weight is not changing at higher eating level.
So how do you know if 1500 is potential?
You go higher, just as you've already done.
2 lbs of almost assuredly all water weight gain, didn't cause your potential TDEE to go from 1325 to 1500. That would be at most 20 extra calories to TDEE if that much.
You aren't able to eat more because you weigh more - but because your body sped up.
And indeed - likely still suppressed TDEE.
Because if your body was so unstressed it went up to full level burn, then you eating at this level would cause weight loss.
Some will see that as they slowly increase - reach a point the body is willing to burn more than is being eaten - so some slow weight loss.
But it may not be burning what it potentially could yet, because the deficit is still in there and too great to the potential TDEE.
Will you keep this weight if you increase calories more?
With mostly anaerobic workouts that burn mainly carbs (HIIT, if true HIIT) - not likely.
As soon as your body can store more carbs to support the workout you are giving it, water attaches to carbs.
That increases LBM and metabolism though, so good there.
And heavier weight moving all day increases TDEE, so good there.
And more energy stores allows better workouts, so good there.
This artificial lower weight merely because of less carb storage would be nothing new.
People lose extra water weight going super low on sodium.
What happens as soon as they eat normal, perhaps healthy, level of sodium now?
This is normal needed water weight.
Guess what happens to your blood volume on workouts where you sweat a lot, and when going into summer?
Water weight.
And hopefully no one would think of blood letting to get rid of that type of water weight.
No - it likely won't go down to artificially low level - you'll have the healthy body weight that supports your workouts.
To that - any specific reason for doing so much HIIT?
Just enjoy it, time factor, other?0 -
I would increase the calories again til you try and find your 'true' TDEE, as it's all just estimates and we've established that the gain so far is most likely water retention.
I was going to ask about the HIIT too. Do you love it or see it as necessary?
Ichel
EM2WL ambassador and moderator0 -
Thanks, guys...................to answer the question about HITT, I do NOT like it at all. Just thought it would help boost the metabolism in addition to the 2x a week strength training. It is 20 minutes of altered 60 min intervals - going from as hard as I can to a slower pace. I don't know if that truly meets the definition of a "true" HITT, but it seems to give me more of a workout than my years-long routine of 40 minute of cardio on a treadmill or elliptical which was basically doing NOTHING I guess since I never altered the routine for YEARS. Is this GOOD LOGIC for what I am trying to accomplish, or am I hurting myself more? @empressichel or @heybales either one, feel free to respond - or anyone else! I will stop if it is counter-productive to what I am trying to do - which is raise my metabolism and achieve TDEE.
I need to think through everything you have shared @heybales and read it a few times to make sure I get what you are saying. I feel like such a newbie at this, takes a while for me to really 'get' some of these principles . I am wondering if maybe I should not even think about a 'goal weight' at all and just be satisfied with whatever weight I wind up at when eating my TDEE predicted on the calculator (while still working my way up to that level). What do you think about that? Maybe I'm just getting too wrapped up in a number? If my BMI is 21, my body fat is 25-26% (which I would like to be closer to 23, but for the age of 50, is really not so bad), then should I just accept whatever number the scale lands on when eating my predicted TDEE and let it go? I don't really want a low number on the scale if it is artificially-induced because of low calories. My whole goal was to be able to eat MORE. So I think it is sounding like I should just avoid trying to set a goal WEIGHT and just see where the scales land.
Thanks and hope everyone has had a great day!)
Kitty0 -
Read through again, @heybales and think I get what you are saying on all of it. I also don't believe I am at my full potential with TDEE. I am going to "hang out" at 1500 for a bit longer and then I will make the leap to 1650 and maybe the full 1700. I see now how my body IS already burning more after re-reading what you have explained. That is really exciting to me. I honestly thought I would be 'stuck' with the 1350 as just an unfortunate side effect of both years of restriction and advancing age. I am super-happy to see through what I am reading on this site that it is NOT necessarily the case!)) Help me sort through the "do I need the 20 min HITT 2x a week" and I think I'll be on a good trajectory for the next couple of months until I decide to bump it up again . 0
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Hi Kitty
We always say 'weights to transform, cardio for fun'
Cardio is not necessary for fat loss. With strength training, you can increase your lean body mass which means an increased metabolism.
Check out this blog post which is relevant to you as you try to each TDEE
http://eatmore2weighless.com/metabolism-reset-series-cardio/
And also this one addresses the HIIT question too
http://eatmore2weighless.com/how-much-cardio-for-fat-loss/
For myself, personally, I don't use cardio as part of my fat loss. I will jump on the exercise bike to ease muscle soreness after leg day, I go on hikes with my children sometimes which is good for both my mental and cardiovascular health. But I do things not for the burn, or because of guilt of eating more, or because I think it'll lead to fat loss, I do them because I enjoy them and they fit into my overall lifestyle.
It is completely up to you. Include it if you enjoy it, but take note that the more cardio you do the more calories you will have to eat to hit your TDEE because of an increased activity level, so if you are struggling with increasing the calories, it's a good idea to dial back the cardio.
Ichel
EM2WL Ambassador and moderator2 -
Wow, @empressichel , these posts are RIGHT on point - and thorough! More for me to digest.............and all very, very helpful. Thank you!1
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misskitty0816 wrote: »Wow, @empressichel , these posts are RIGHT on point - and thorough! More for me to digest.............and all very, very helpful. Thank you!
I know, right?
The more blog posts you read it's like, oh this one was written for me. No wait, this one! And this one! And so on and so on!
The encouraging thing is that those blog posts exist because what you are going through is totally normal! And we have all been just where you are!
I'm kinda addicted to EM2WL blog posts! I'm a sponge soaking up information!
Ichel
EM2WL ambassador and moderator2 -
@misskitty0812 After years of cardio i too have totally skipped cardio and hiit in the last two months and feel great for strength training myself! I dont have to push myself and feel free to workout whenever i feel comfortable with my body and time. I'm not stressed out if i miss my strength session at any time of the week coz i know the flexibility of this EM2WL thing!! I think apart from being filled with food and happiness in also free of the diet and exercise bug that was in my mind 24/7 before!1
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misskitty0816 wrote: »Thanks, guys...................to answer the question about HITT, I do NOT like it at all. Just thought it would help boost the metabolism in addition to the 2x a week strength training. It is 20 minutes of altered 60 min intervals - going from as hard as I can to a slower pace. I don't know if that truly meets the definition of a "true" HITT, but it seems to give me more of a workout than my years-long routine of 40 minute of cardio on a treadmill or elliptical which was basically doing NOTHING I guess since I never altered the routine for YEARS. Is this GOOD LOGIC for what I am trying to accomplish, or am I hurting myself more?
Kitty
The HIIT gives you a different workout, for different purpose, then long slow cardio (slow in comparison to sprinting say).
It may indeed feel like more. But it's really just different. It has it's place.
There are even different types of intervals to focus on improving different systems in the body. But if not trying to improve race performance or aerobic endurance - not really needed.
But several have been found to produce just as beneficial aerobic benefits as long slow cardio - lowered HR, stronger heart, better lungs and oxygen uptake, better insulin response, ect - in much shorter time. So don't view it as calorie burner, but rather as health workout.
And the reason why HIIT raises the metabolism - is exactly the same reason why lifting raises the metabolism (Go hard, rest, repeat).
You are putting such a load on some muscles they need to repair and recover during the next 24 hrs.
Not as much as true lifting would cause, but for those only doing cardio - it's as close to lifting as they'll get.
But you are doing lifting - so skip the HIIT I'd suggest, especially as you don't enjoy it. And give more time to true lifting.
If you were pressed for time on your between lifting rest days, and you wanted some cardio for health benefits - sure, give it 20 min.
But if not pressed for time, just do some cardio you enjoy - easy enough that it actually assists recovery from the lifting. Which allows lifting better the next time compared to not doing it.
That's why many walk - trails, parks, ect - enjoyable, and hard to push it too hard when only walking.
But if you enjoy the elliptical and can keep it calm, sure do some. Or swimming or jogging slow.
Used to be called, and still is more correctly called - the Active Recovery HR zone, badly called the Fat-Burn zone.
But I'd restructure the week to give more time to lifting - that'll transform the body more.
HIIT is going to help improve muscles for whatever cardio thing you are doing - and if you don't need it for races, might as well go for full body lifting.
HIIT done at the wrong time, like the 24-48 hrs body is trying to recover from a good lifting workout, can hinder recovery and make your workouts not as good as time progresses. Because the HIIT needs a recovery too, but then if the next day is lifting with same muscles ....
Just imagine what happens eventually.1 -
@misskitty08 i know the flexibility of this EM2WL thing!! I think apart from being filled with food and happiness in also free of the diet and exercise bug that was in my mind 24/7 before!
Can I quote this? It's beautiful2 -
There are even different types of intervals to focus on improving different systems in the body. But if not trying to improve race performance or aerobic endurance - not really needed.
But several have been found to produce just as beneficial aerobic benefits as long slow cardio - lowered HR, stronger heart, better lungs and oxygen uptake, better insulin response, ect - in much shorter time. So don't view it as calorie burner, but rather as health workout.
I love this @heybales
Yes, view cardio as a health workout to enjoy if you like it rather than burning calories.
Ichel
EM2WL ambassador and moderator
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empressichel wrote: »@misskitty08 i know the flexibility of this EM2WL thing!! I think apart from being filled with food and happiness in also free of the diet and exercise bug that was in my mind 24/7 before!
Can I quote this? It's beautiful
Anytime!
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