Okapi on a plateau

Okapi42

Hi guys,

A friend recommended I post here rather than in the general forums, since the advice I was getting there was spotty at best...

Long story short, I've been plateauing for several months now, though initially I was losing well, and I'm getting increasingly frustrated. Over the last three months, I lost a grand total of 300g - and that was the lowest point from which I have since come back up! Measurements also haven't changed.

I'm using the MFP-suggested calories and macros and eating some of my exercise calories back. Not all, because it varies so wildly, which is where I think the problem might lie! I attempted to have a week of going somewhat over recently because I'd been told to eat more, but that just made me gain more weight.

So, here it is in brief:


DIET

29-year-old female vegetarian, down from 82 kg to 71 kg February-May, 165 cm tall. I have a hormonal imbalance (suspected PCOS) and somewhat wonky blood sugar, so I'm trying to keep under my suggested carbs (trying to stay under 200 g on most days). I tend to go over on fat instead. Protein might be better, but as a vegetarian, it's hard to up the protein without adding in either fat or carbs, and I don't want to go the route of protein powder. Too expensive, too processed. I'm not a "clean" eater by any means, though I cook most meals myself.

I had MFP set to 0.5kg / week and "lightly active" (mostly to cover work things I don't add - I'm a ranger, so the job can involve lots of heavy lifting, yard work, and generally being on my feet a lot. And loads and loads of stairs.) Recently changed that 0.25kg per week and "sedentary", assuming I might be overestimating my general activity level, but it came out with roughly the same net goal of 1450 cals/day.

I saw a dietitian who told me never to go over 1700 gross calories a day, but that would put me in negative net cals some days!

My gross intake usually varies somewhere between 1600 and 2300 at the moment, depending on exercise that day.

EXERCISE

I'm very active. I burn about 4,500 extra calories per week, over quite a few hours.

- I usually hit over 10,000 steps per day on my pedometer.

- I do HEMA (historic European martial arts) twice per week, a two-hour class each, of which I log 45 minutes to an hour to allow for instruction time, slow drills, etc.

- I cycle about 65 km per week, 25 km of which is at a moderate pace, going to classes, social activities, shopping, etc. The other 40km are my weekly bike to work, 20km each way which I'm now doing in 50-55 minutes, including hills and a heavy pannier bag.

- I ride my horse 3x per week on average for a total of about 5 hours. I'm hoping to get into endurance/le trec and training him for jousting, so it's usually a 20-minute session in the arena followed by a good hour in the forest/hills, with long stretches of trot and canter to build up condition for both of us.

- I go hiking with friends about once a month. The longest we've done was 60 km in a day through the mountains (for charity), but it's usually more like 15-40 km, with a pure hiking time of about 6 hours. (The shorter hikes involve steep mountains - our last had a kilometre of altitude gain!)

I did c25k for a while, then stopped when I broke a few ribs in a riding accident. Tried to get back into it, but found I simply don't have the time. I'm rarely home before 10 pm. At the moment, my days off at work vary from 1-4 per week, and never on the same days twice in a row. My evening/leisure schedule is:

Monday - HEMA longsword. Tuesday - Gaming. Wednesday - Horse. Thursday - HEMA fencing (sometimes archery). Friday - Horse. Saturday - Cooking with friends and board games. Sunday - Horse.

TRACKING

I don't have a HRM, nor do I intend to get one. I use a pedometer for walking (except hiking), and MapMyRun for the outdoor stuff like hiking, biking, and horse riding. Since HEMA isn't in the database, I use calories from similar lower-intensity martial arts.

I use a kitchen scale to measure my food, except for where I use a whole set unit, eg 1 pre-cut slice, or (because I'm cooking only for myself) where it will average out anyway, eg 1/2 bag of tortellini on each of two days.

RESULTS

In an average week, I'm about 1500 calories total below the goal MFP has set for me, which is a defecit of around 5000 calories. Seems to me I should be losing, but I'm not. Aaargh.

PS: Strength training is not an option. For one thing, going to the gym instead of outdoors would totally demotivate me. I'd be bored out of my tiny mind. For another, I have nerve damage in my shoulder. I'm working with a physio on that, but I probably won't ever have full range of motion back, let alone strength. Lifting my sword for HEMA can already be a challenge.


Thanks for any advice!

Sarauk2sf

Hi!

Can you open your food diary.

Thanks

Okapi42

Oh, right, sorry. It's open now. The last few weeks aren't great, I've been sort of flailing, trying to follow conflicting advice...

SideSteel

Tagging.

Sarauk2sf

Before I get to the calorie and macro recommendations I just want to make a couple of points.

Regarding protein, I am a vegetarian also and can manage to get 120g+ with no protein powder even on lowish calories. Also, if you are worried about artificial flavors and sweeteners, there are a lot of protein powders, such as Optimum Nutrition's Natural line that do not have them. I find pre-logging helps a lot. Here is a link to a thread I did that that splits out protein sources, with their grams per calories, between non-veg*n, vegetarian and vegan sources: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/926789-protein-sources

With regard to your PCOS, people with PCOS will generally have a lower BMR than average, which is often exacerbated by higher carb intake. As has been suggested to you, limiting carbs will help in losing weight. Also, people who have metabolic issues such as PCOS do better exercising. While cardio is good, strength training appears to be even better for a metabolic benefit for people with metabolic issues. I realize that you do not want to do this, but I am just noting that you may find better results incorporating it (as well as it giving you a better chance of not losing LBM while dieting).

Your body adapts to things that you do regularly and so less energy is expended doing them, and as such calorie estimates can be significantly overestimated for these activities. It is one of the reasons that you need to progressively overload when strength training for it to be effective - a new/different stimulus is needed. Also, the fact that you have PCOS may also lead to them being overstated when using estimates from here or other sites.

Also, with regard to your point about the 1,700 taking you into negative calories on some days. If you are going to be looking at net calories, they should not be looked at on a daily basis but rather a weekly basis. When someone eats to a static number, there will be days that give you a higher deficit and ones that give you a lower deficit. As our bodies do not use a 24 hours clock with its digestion, absorption and utilization of food, it really does not matter and makes no sense to look at it in the acute time blocks. Also, even if your total net for the week ends up below what an online calculator's spits out as your BMR, that is not actually your BMR. It is the BMR of a sample population who do not fit your individual circumstances and will be higher for you anyway due to your PCOS. If you are maintaining at 2,100 calories, with your activity, eating at the 1,700 is actually unlikely to put you below your BMR in any event - that is a 400 calorie deficit and highly unlikely to actually put you below (or much below) your BMR. For anyone who is not a complete couch potato all day, TDEE will be at least 20% higher than their BMR. If someone is maintaining at 2,100 - this would make their BMR 1,700 at most (and lower if they are active). Now, there are things that can help the deficit while not eating less as I note here, which is we can start you above 1700 for now, but if you don't lose, you may need to go at or below 1700 to get results and that's fine. Also, overestimating of exercise calories comes into play.

Your calories are averaging at about 2,100 with protein, fats and carbs at 61g, 84g, and 260g. You protein is very low an you carbs are very high which is not ideal at all, especially for someone with PCOS. We would also echo the prior advice you have been given that you should limit carbs to under 200g (and possibly further, depending on results).

With that said, we would recommend setting your calories at 1,900 (no eating exercise calories back) and your macros at:

Protein 120g (we would usually recommend higher in your situation, say 140g, but as your protein is so low at the moment, have given you a slightly lower target to try to meet)
Fats: 70g (higher than usual due to your PCOS and taking into consideration your fats err on the high side in any event)

as minimums with the balance going where you wish based on preference, energy and adherence. This will effectively self govern the carbs and limit it to a maximum of 198g.

Could you hit these targets as closely as possible and get back to us in 2 weeks so we can see how you are doing and we can tweak as necessary.

Okapi42

Hmmm, I can give it a try, but that protein goal seems entirely unrealistic without "artificial" protein being added. Any tips, keeping in mind that I live in Northern Ireland, where the local cuisine is 101 uses for a dead pig, with a side of potatoes? Can't get things like seitan or even black beans. So upping my protein will automatically mean increasing my carbs or fat.

Trying to keep the carbs in check was my own idea - the dietitian actually wanted me to increase them. Her exact words were "more pasta, less sauce, and eat a slice of bread with it"!

ETA: I'm also not willing to waste food, for similar reasons to why I'm a vegetarian. So eating only egg whites, for example, or washing kilos of flour down the sink to make seitan are not an option.

Sarauk2sf

I think we must have different definitions as to what is artificial is. All whey is, is a milk derivative and as I noted you can get them without artificial additives. However, that is a moot point. As I also noted I can easily get to that protein target without it on those calories, and I would not even have to use seitan. That being said, you can make seitan. I am not familiar with the stores in NI but I know that there are Holland & Barretts and similar stores where you can buy wheat gluten as well as other protein sources such as nutritional yeast and hemp seeds that I included in the link I provided.

If you want to limit carbs, it is not a case of adding higher protein sources that will increase carbs, it is a case of swapping out or eliminating some of the higher carb but lower protein sources you already have.

At the end of the day it takes doing some homework and sometimes making some compromises if you want to achieve you goals.

Point in case:

12 oz greek yoghurt: 200 cal, 36g protein
2 cups skim milk: 172 cals, 17g protein
2 whole eggs: 147 cals, 13g protein
6oz tofu: 105 cals, 12g protein

That is 78g protein for only 624 calories - which 65% of your protein target for only 33% of your calorie target and I am pretty sure you can get those items in stores in NI. I am obviously just using this as an example that it is possible to get a good amount protein for your calorie buck and without having to resort to protein powder.

I would suggest trying to get at least 100g at first and then look at your diary to see what other things you can swap out to try to get that up to nearer the 120g. It may take a while and a bit of playing around.

Okapi42

I see this "the more protein, the better" thing everywhere, but I don't really see why. Just like the whole "lifting heavy is the only way to happiness" stuff. Sounds like just the latest fad to me. But I did ask you for advice, which you gave, so I might as well be properly grateful and try it.

Unfortunately, H&B no longer sell vital wheat gluten, because "everyone has gone off gluten", and you can't seem to get non-GM tofu. I mean, it's not like Belfast is the capital of an entire province, or anything...

bostonwolf

^Why bother? You clearly don't think it will work and you are already making excuses as to why it would be impossible for you to follow.

Don't set yourself up for failure. You asked for advice. If you don't like it, don't follow it but understand that you probably aren't going to see any real changes in your body composition by continuing on the same path you are traveling now.

StarChanger

The post helps me...

Sarauk2sf

The 'more protein the better' needs to be put into context, and I do not think I have seen people advocate that anyway. People require a certain amount of protein in order to maintain muscle mass. The amount will depend on a variety of factors, but is significantly influenced by whether or not someone is in a calorie deficit and whether or not they are active. Getting a sufficient amount of protein, and strength training while on a deficit is in no way a fad, it is a way to mitigate the risk of losing muscle mass. We do not deal in fads in this group, we give advice based on what be know about how the body works and what the peer reviewed studies and science based experts in the industry are suggesting.

Sufficient protein is shown to preserve LBM, strength training is shown to preserve LBM, studies show that people with metabolic issues respond better to strength training, lower carbs and higher protein. These are not fads, these are based on peer reviewed studies and human biology.

I have never indicated that lifting is the road to happiness, but it, along with sufficient protein, is the road to ensuring that as much of your weight loss is fat as possible.

If you wish to understand how it is not a fad, this is a good video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFObr7rc1kA, it is long but has a discussion of the need for protein in more detail. We also have a link here that shows studies indicating that higher protein is more optimal. http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/823505-research-on-protien-intake

To be honest, I am a little surprised that you think that myself and SideSteel would buy into something that is a fad. Views change as knowledge grows and new studies come out, but we do our best to dismiss fads. If you read the stickies then our approach will hopefully be clearer to you.

sweebum

The higher protein is to replace the carbs. For obvious reasons, you shouldn't be replacing it with fat. PCOS will not only give you a lower BMR, but as you've seen, wreaks havoc with blood sugar as well.

Strength training will enable you to retain some lean muscle while losing with lower calories, plus it changes the look of your body far more than cardio.

Eating more protein increases satiety (feeling full) and burns more calories being processed. Like it or not, with PCOS, you are going to have to keep the carbs and the calories lower to lose. You either want it, or you don't. Good luck.:flowerforyou:

Sarauk2sf

Locking so we can keep better track of active threads. Please PM either myself or SideSteel when you are ready to give us an update or if you have further questions or comments, including a link to this thread, and we will unlock.