PSMF (Protein Sparing something Fasts) Vs a fat fast

suzqtme

I'm doing a fat fast for a couple of days after having some falling off the wagon issues so I can get back into ketosis. Someone in one of the other threads referred to a PSMF so I looked it up. That is basically high protein/low fat rather than low protein/high fat for fat fast.

Does anyone know the pros and cons of these? To me, the PSMF was more like Atkins low fat version I used 15 years ago and lost weight but felt hungry all the time. I've done one other fat fast when I was having trouble breaking through with my fasting blood sugar. It was okay, a little difficult, but I wasn't hungry all the time.

SideSteel

One major benefit to keeping protein high during extreme deficits would be the muscle sparing effect that protein may have in that circumstance.

Gallowmere1984

The entire point of a PSMF is to turn it into a VLCD by eating nothing but the protein your body needs to avoid muscle atrophy, and EFAs from fish oil supps. Seriously, unless you intend to follow a well structured protocol like Lyle McDonald's RFL, do NOT attempt it. You absolutely can screw yourself if you do it wrong. Hell, even with me knowing what I am doing, I had to bail on my last RFL run a few days early due to weight dropping too quickly, and me nearly collapsing during a three mile walk, which is ridiculous.

SideSteel

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

The entire point of a PSMF is to turn it into a VLCD by eating nothing but the protein your body needs to avoid muscle atrophy, and EFAs from fish oil supps. Seriously, unless you intend to follow a well structured protocol like Lyle McDonald's RFL, do NOT attempt it. You absolutely can screw yourself if you do it wrong. Hell, even with me knowing what I am doing, I had to bail on my last RFL run a few days early due to weight dropping too quickly, and me nearly collapsing during a three mile walk, which is ridiculous.

Agreed.

suzqtme

So for a 62 year old post menopausal women, 2 or 3 days of fat fasting would benefit me far more...point gotten! Thanks.

Gallowmere1984

suzqtme wrote: »

So for a 62 year old post menopausal women, 2 or 3 days of fat fasting would benefit me far more...point gotten! Thanks.

If the "fat fast" is in the same vlcd range as the psmf, then no, it would do even more harm.

The original experiments with VLCDs that killed people tried to use carbs and fats as the caloric sources. Organ failure was common. For whatever reason, it took the idiot scientists a while to figure out that protein is the most protein sparing macronutrient.

Sunny_Bunny_

Did she mention wanting to do very low calories? I didn't see that. If not aware there's any reason a couple days of a fat fast would be an issue. If water fasting for a couple days can be healthful, why couldn't a fat fast? Being in ketosis alone is quite protein sparing in itself. With reduced glucose needs, lean mass loss shouldn't be as much as it would be for someone coming from a non fat adapted state.

But, honestly, if your only goal is to get back into ketosis, that'll only take like half a day of super low carbs, especially if you get a brisk walk in.

suzqtme

I'm following what I've found on Ketodietapp, ruled.me, bulletproof.com, etc., for how to's on this. Fat/pro/carb is 85-90/10-12/<5 roughly with calories 1000-1200. Today B was 2 bacon and "keto coffee" (2 TBL coconut oil and 2 TBL cream), L was 1 ounce cheddar cheese and 6 olives. S was 1.2 oz ribeye, 1.5 oz green salad w 1 tsp olive oil, s.g. jello with whipped cream and finally a fat bomb. Macros were 106/28/9 w 1082 cals (88%/10%/3%).

It takes a lot for me to get into ketosis, usually 3 days before I would show any color at all on the ketostix, walk or not. Plus I have MS and am rather visually impaired. So if no one is around to walk with me, I don't. We don't have sidewalks where I live. So I am planning on 3 days of fat fast and on the morning of the 4th day will return to my normal LCHF WOE if I see at least pink.

If nothing else, this has been a help in realizing I need to have a plan and prepractice for stress relief. In the past month, I have seen 4 different specialists concerning my sighted eye, was given a thumbs up in the end (glaucoma only). Then a week or so later, I was seeing double and triple and couldn't even read my Kindle or see the TV. Now they are talking about removing the lens in my sighted eye that was placed last year when I had cataract surgery (which started this whole mess with my eyes). I started eating too much keto food, then too much wine (wine is okay so more must be more okay) and then to eating comfort carbs. It comforted me out of ketosis, gave me a gain of 5 pounds and just as stressed (or more so) than if I had left the carbs alone.

StrongGirlFitGirl

suzqtme wrote: »

I'm doing a fat fast for a couple of days after having some falling off the wagon issues so I can get back into ketosis. Someone in one of the other threads referred to a PSMF so I looked it up. That is basically high protein/low fat rather than low protein/high fat for fat fast.

Does anyone know the pros and cons of these? To me, the PSMF was more like Atkins low fat version I used 15 years ago and lost weight but felt hungry all the time. I've done one other fat fast when I was having trouble breaking through with my fasting blood sugar. It was okay, a little difficult, but I wasn't hungry all the time.

Hi @suzqtme ! I am doing the PSMF diet under medical supervision, so I can answer some of your questions regarding that plan! I don't know what a fat fast is, so I can't compare the two though.

@Gallowmere1984 is right - PSMF is a VLCD (so many acronyms!). The idea is to eat enough protein to keep your muscle mass, but keep carbs very low, and fat low. The macros are: Carbs- no more than 20 g, Fat- 30g although my nutritionist said it's totally fine to go up to even 60 once in awhile, then protein is measured in ounces based on your weight. I get 10 ounces of protein a day. Some small portions of non-salad vegetables, some condiments, and a bit of fat are allowed, too.

I see an Endocrinologist every two months, a dietician every month, plus get bloodwork done every month. There are also specific supplements to take.

It's a very radical, crash diet, meant to get fat off quickly, but not meant to be a long term solution. Once a person on it reaches their goal weight, or has been on it for six months, there is a solid plan for working carbs back in and going on maintenance.

Hope that helps! If you have any other questions, you can always message me or post here!

Sunny_Bunny_

suzqtme wrote: »

I'm following what I've found on Ketodietapp, ruled.me, bulletproof.com, etc., for how to's on this. Fat/pro/carb is 85-90/10-12/<5 roughly with calories 1000-1200. Today B was 2 bacon and "keto coffee" (2 TBL coconut oil and 2 TBL cream), L was 1 ounce cheddar cheese and 6 olives. S was 1.2 oz ribeye, 1.5 oz green salad w 1 tsp olive oil, s.g. jello with whipped cream and finally a fat bomb. Macros were 106/28/9 w 1082 cals (88%/10%/3%).

It takes a lot for me to get into ketosis, usually 3 days before I would show any color at all on the ketostix, walk or not. Plus I have MS and am rather visually impaired. So if no one is around to walk with me, I don't. We don't have sidewalks where I live. So I am planning on 3 days of fat fast and on the morning of the 4th day will return to my normal LCHF WOE if I see at least pink.

If nothing else, this has been a help in realizing I need to have a plan and prepractice for stress relief. In the past month, I have seen 4 different specialists concerning my sighted eye, was given a thumbs up in the end (glaucoma only). Then a week or so later, I was seeing double and triple and couldn't even read my Kindle or see the TV. Now they are talking about removing the lens in my sighted eye that was placed last year when I had cataract surgery (which started this whole mess with my eyes). I started eating too much keto food, then too much wine (wine is okay so more must be more okay) and then to eating comfort carbs. It comforted me out of ketosis, gave me a gain of 5 pounds and just as stressed (or more so) than if I had left the carbs alone.

Sorry to hear about your difficulties. I do recall you talking about them before. I didn't remember that when suggesting the walking and ease of getting into ketosis.
Though I do think ketosis can be happening even when the strips don't show it.
But I think you've got your specific needs to get there pretty well figured out. Your body is clearly under stress beyond what is just typical for most people and that definitely interferes with the whole process. Because we know cortisol increases insulin because it stimulates the release of glucose from the liver, I think (from all the things I've read over the last year and a half) that must be one of the things that increases demand for GNG, and of course, makes lowering insulin more difficult because it's a perpetuating cycle. Somebody call me out if this idea doesn't make sense, but I think it has to be why it's harder to achieve and maintain ketosis for T2D and insulin resistance and probably any chronic stressing condition.
If you were maintaining ketosis prior to the recent changes then you'll get back there getting back on that original plan. You might be right to try the fast to accelerate the process as it could help nip that cycle in the bud. I'm a big fan of fasting even though I haven't done a whole lot of it myself. I don't have any of the conditions/situations that it seems to be most immediately and obviously beneficial for, so I haven't done much of it...
Anyway, keep us posted on your progress. It's great to learn how these things work for different people. This subject definitely comes up a lot and the more we experiment responsibly and share the more we can hope to understand about it.