Too good to be true?Has to be
KetoLady86
Posts: 337 Member
Well, I carbed out these last two days, like binged carbed out. Anyway, I told myself today I would do a 24 hr fast (I do this often, I enjoy it). Well, its 3:30 and still going strong. I noticed earlier while tinkling that it smelled like keto pee (sorry, TMI) so I had some of thise lovely ketosticks left from way back then, and for giggles, I just wanted to see what would happen....and it turned pink. Could it be that Im already back to burning fat, or maybe, possibly didn't stop. ...I had so much bread, and ice cream .....hope everyone had a nice Christmas!
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I've never had a carb binge but the whole idea of becoming fat adapted is to be able to get back into ketosis pretty easily. It's certainly easier for some than others. It seems that those of us that are more insulin sensitive have a much easier time than our insulin resistant friends.
When I first went keto I wasn't expecting to test positive ketones for a few days but I was showing ketosis level blood ketones by the end of my first 24 hours.
The idea that's so diffficult to achieve is really overstated.
I forget to add, that even though drinking alcohol is supposed to stop ketone production, it's not unusual for me to still test with trace urine ketones while drinking. It will be negative if I drink enough to get buzzed though... but even then, I'm usually testing trace again first thing the next morning.3 -
That very true...when i see people saying they have eaten' less than 20g of carbs for a week and still not in ketosis, I always think they are doing something wrong, or there is something wrong.
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I think just individual as far as ketosis-some of us have more difficult time getting into ketosis- I'm very careful but took me 3 weeks- just what it is for me but makes me less inclined to carb out2
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also a bit confused here, i pigged out big time xmas day - more carbs than i usually eat in a week - yet i'm pretty sure two days later I'm back in ketosis - in fact my appetite is lower than ever - couldn't make it to my caloric goal yesterday and had to force myself to have a snack bar and coffee today at lunch time - no brain fog, bloated boxing day but today its all gone again.. not that im complaining, but just puzzled1
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Ketosis is a natural process. It's not hard to achieve unless there other factors inhibiting it. All that you read online about how hard it is to get there is either from people that didn't cut carbs enough or have other metabolic factors in play.2
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also a bit confused here, i pigged out big time xmas day - more carbs than i usually eat in a week - yet i'm pretty sure two days later I'm back in ketosis - in fact my appetite is lower than ever - couldn't make it to my caloric goal yesterday and had to force myself to have a snack bar and coffee today at lunch time - no brain fog, bloated boxing day but today its all gone again.. not that im complaining, but just puzzled
Same here doll! Not complaining, just a little confused..lol0 -
Thanks girls, .. now to remember this is not an excuse to splurge lol1
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Someone not low carb can achieve blood ketones over .5 just by adding a couple tablespoons of MCT oil to their oatmeal.
Even without that, some carb eaters wake up every morning at levels of .1-.3.
Of course not everyone. Certainly not those metabolically diseased. But, assuming you're insulin sensitive, it honestly probably means you could have more carbs than you think and remain in ketosis if you are wanting to. Not sugar and starches... but just more of your already low carb options.3 -
Yep, totally that last sentence, @Sunny_Bunnie.2
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I hate to be the bummer here but it could also be that your body is excreting all the excess ketones now that is has been refueled by glycogen. Sometimes after a carb load after being in ketosis you can have fruity breath and keto pee for 1-3 days after as the ketones are being pushed out. Check your pee again in another day to make sure. Hopefully you're still all good.2
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kittykidee wrote: »I hate to be the bummer here but it could also be that your body is excreting all the excess ketones now that is has been refueled by glycogen. Sometimes after a carb load after being in ketosis you can have fruity breath and keto pee for 1-3 days after as the ketones are being pushed out. Check your pee again in another day to make sure. Hopefully you're still all good.
Could be...I'll check! Thanks love0 -
kittykidee wrote: »I hate to be the bummer here but it could also be that your body is excreting all the excess ketones now that is has been refueled by glycogen. Sometimes after a carb load after being in ketosis you can have fruity breath and keto pee for 1-3 days after as the ketones are being pushed out. Check your pee again in another day to make sure. Hopefully you're still all good.
I can't figure out how that works...
Just thinking about my T1D daughter when she was in DKA. The ketones will be completely eliminated in a matter hours upon getting insulin and blood sugar back to normal. What mechanism would leave old ketones sitting around in the body for up to 3 days?0 -
Sunny_Bunny is correct here.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »kittykidee wrote: »I hate to be the bummer here but it could also be that your body is excreting all the excess ketones now that is has been refueled by glycogen. Sometimes after a carb load after being in ketosis you can have fruity breath and keto pee for 1-3 days after as the ketones are being pushed out. Check your pee again in another day to make sure. Hopefully you're still all good.
I can't figure out how that works...
Just thinking about my T1D daughter when she was in DKA. The ketones will be completely eliminated in a matter hours upon getting insulin and blood sugar back to normal. What mechanism would leave old ketones sitting around in the body for up to 3 days?
Unless there's a medical emergency, ketones are eliminated (or used as fuel) quite quickly in the body. It doesn't take days to eliminate ketones, it's a matter of minutes-to-hours from the time they're produced by the liver.
If you're producing ketones for days, it's because you're liver is producing them as a result of gluconeogenesis. This can be from eating low-carb, too-few calories, prolonged exercise, (a combination of any/all of the previous) or if you have uncontrolled T1 diabetes.
The ONLY time for concern with ketones is *IF* you also have extremely high blood sugar (high-ketones plus high-BG = Diabetic Ketoacidosis; the "DKA" that Sunny_Bunny mentioned above)... which low-carbers generally don't.2 -
albertabeefy wrote: »[
Unless there's a medical emergency, ketones are eliminated (or used as fuel) quite quickly in the body. It doesn't take days to eliminate ketones, it's a matter of minutes-to-hours from the time they're produced by the liver.
If you're producing ketones for days, it's because your liver is producing them as a result of gluconeogenesis. This can be from eating low-carb, too-few calories, prolonged exercise, (a combination of any/all of the previous) or if you have uncontrolled T1 diabetes.
Gluconeogenesis - - > ketones?
I'm confused...
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kittykidee wrote: »I hate to be the bummer here but it could also be that your body is excreting all the excess ketones now that is has been refueled by glycogen. Sometimes after a carb load after being in ketosis you can have fruity breath and keto pee for 1-3 days after as the ketones are being pushed out. Check your pee again in another day to make sure. Hopefully you're still all good.
Still good here thanks kittykidee
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Thanks Sunny_Bunnie. ... think you have nailed it ... maybe some extra salad with my fatty meat tonightSunny_Bunny_ wrote: »But, assuming you're insulin sensitive, it honestly probably means you could have more carbs than you think and remain in ketosis if you are wanting to. Not sugar and starches... but just more of your already low carb options.
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Yup. During the switch from a higher-carbohydrate diet to a low-carb diet, blood glucose levels don't drop immediately - they're maintained for a couple days (the homeostasis effect) through gluconeogenesis, and the brain doesn't burn ketones during this time. And yes, one by-product of gluconeogenesis is ketones.Gluconeogenesis - - > ketones?
I'm confused...
Mike Eades explains it pretty well (remember, we can substitute "carbohydrate-restriction" for "starvation", below): From this page:Mike Eades wrote:Early on, the metabolic system doesn’t know that the starvation is going to go on for a day or for a week or two weeks. At first it plunders the muscle to get its sugar. And remember from a past post that a normal blood sugar represents only about a teaspoon of sugar dissolved in the entire blood volume, so keeping the blood sugar normal for a day or so doesn’t require a whole lot of muscular sacrifice. If we figure that an average person requires about 200 grams of sugar per day to meet all the needs of the glucose-dependent tissues, we’re looking at maybe a third of a pound of muscle per day, which isn’t all that big a deal over the first day. But we wouldn’t want it to continue at that rate. If we could reduce that amount and allow our muscle mass to last as long as possible, it would be a big help.
The metabolic system could solve its problem by a coming up with a way to reduce the glucose-dependent tissues’ need for glucose so that the protein could be spared as long as possible.
Ketones to the rescue.
The liver requires energy to convert the protein to glucose. The energy comes from fat. As the liver breaks down the fat to release its energy to power gluconeogenesis, the conversion of protein to sugar, it produces ketones as a byproduct. And what a byproduct they are. Ketones are basically water soluble (meaning they dissolve in blood) fats that are a source of energy for many tissues including the muscles, brain and heart. In fact, ketones act as a stand in for sugar in the brain. Although ketones can’t totally replace all the sugar required by the brain, they can replace a pretty good chunk of it. By reducing the body’s need for sugar, less protein is required, allowing the muscle mass (the protein reservoir) to last a lot longer before it is depleted. And ketones are the preferred fuel for the heart, making that organ operate at about 28 percent greater efficiency.
Fat is the perfect fuel. Part of it provides energy to the liver so that the liver can convert protein to glucose. The unusable part of the fat then converts to ketones, which reduce the need for glucose and spare the muscle in the process.
If, instead of starving, you’re following a low-carb diet, it gets even better. The protein you eat is converted to glucose instead of the protein in your muscles. If you keep the carbs low enough so that the liver still has to make some sugar, then you will be in fat-burning mode while maintaining your muscle mass, the best of all worlds. How low is low enough? Well, when the ketosis process is humming along nicely and the brain and other tissues have converted to ketones for fuel, the requirement for glucose drops to about 120-130 gm per day. If you keep your carbs below that at, say, 60 grams per day, you’re liver will have to produce at least 60-70 grams of glucose to make up the deficit, so you will generate ketones that entire time.
That explanation is fairly basic ... I could get into the actual biochemistry of it all, but that'd take several pages - and I'm pretty sure 99.9% of the forum visitors don't want that. It's enough to say that both gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis result in ketones as a by-product. There's usually more showing up in your urine during gluconeogenesis (in the absence of ketogenesis - and yes, they can occur at the same time), however.3 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Ketosis is a natural process. It's not hard to achieve unless there other factors inhibiting it. All that you read online about how hard it is to get there is either from people that didn't cut carbs enough or have other metabolic factors in play.
Also of note - for people who temporarily 'carb up' ... if these are folks who've recently been long-term fat-adapted (ie: in "nutritional ketosis", as Phinney/Volek call it) - it is MUCH easier/quicker to get back into that state - especially if they exercise regularly.4 -
Good to know. Thanks guys. I should have fact checked more before sharing my personal experience as fact. Such a pet peeve of mine. I've had keto pee up to a day and a half after carbing. .. But I also have problems with low blood sugar (from long before my keto days) so maybe that plays into it??1
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kittykidee wrote: »Good to know. Thanks guys. I should have fact checked more before sharing my personal experience as fact. Such a pet peeve of mine. I've had keto pee up to a day and a half after carbing. .. But I also have problems with low blood sugar (from long before my keto days) so maybe that plays into it??
No biggie. I recall stating a misunderstanding regarding these darn test strips when I was new here too. There's so much to learn and honestly I think it's cool to keep learning more every day. There's so much amazing interaction between one mechanism and another. Nobody could keep track of it all.
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albertabeefy wrote: »
Yup. During the switch from a higher-carbohydrate diet to a low-carb diet, blood glucose levels don't drop immediately - they're maintained for a couple days (the homeostasis effect) through gluconeogenesis, and the brain doesn't burn ketones during this time. And yes, one by-product of gluconeogenesis is ketones.Gluconeogenesis - - > ketones?
I'm confused...
Mike Eades explains it pretty well (remember, we can substitute "carbohydrate-restriction" for "starvation", below): From this page:
That explanation is fairly basic ... I could get into the actual biochemistry of it all, but that'd take several pages - and I'm pretty sure 99.9% of the forum visitors don't want that. It's enough to say that both gluconeogenesis and ketogenesis result in ketones as a by-product. There's usually more showing up in your urine during gluconeogenesis (in the absence of ketogenesis - and yes, they can occur at the same time), however.
Whew, thanks. That's a mouthful!
Doesn't quite square with the facile images in my mind's eye. Excess dietary fat? Ketones from protein (meaning that excess protein converting to glucose in fact does not defeat ketosis)? Aaaaaiiieeee!1 -
Well, I don't personally believe there's any such thing as excess dietary fat unless you're eating a caloric surplus. (Well, unless you intend to eat a surplus ... then I guess it's still not excess.)Whew, thanks. That's a mouthful!
Doesn't quite square with the facile images in my mind's eye. Excess dietary fat? Ketones from protein (meaning that excess protein converting to glucose in fact does not defeat ketosis)? Aaaaaiiieeee!
And no, excess protein converting to glucose does not defeat ketosis in a hypocaloric state. This is why there is exists such a thing as a high-protein ketogenic diet.
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But if I were to tack on 500g of fat, this might defeat ketosis? This seems to undercut the "dietary fat and body lard are interchangeable" mantra. ?? Oy vay...
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Wait. You aren't saying the protein itself is being converted to ketones. You're saying the body needs energy to convert protein to glucose so it's using ketones as that energy source. This also suggests the body was making ketones prior to the NEED for the glucose in the first place. That doesn't mean the ketones are made from GNG. They were being made anyway. GNG is only taking place to supply the minimal basic glucose for the few areas of the brain that require it. There would be no need for the body to stop ketone production in that case because of the demand driven GNG process. It knows it's only making a small amount for a very specific purpose and is very temporary. The rest of the body still needs fueling so it makes sense that ketones and glucose CAN be doing their thang at the same time. But this is seriously small amounts of glucose you're talking about. The brain only requires about 120g a day and the fat adapted brain requires even less.
Edited for spelling failures as usual0 -
OK, let me explain this differently so we can hopefully all be clear on how gluconeogenesis results in the production of ketone bodies, as there appears to be some confusion and lack of understanding of the concept.
Sorry for the wall-of-text ... but biochemistry just doesn't always have a "Coles Notes" way tor explanations.
First as an FYI, in normal folks the liver always provides a constant production of ketone bodies. Not a lot, and it just happens. They are used quite effectively by extra-hepatic (ie: outside the liver) tissues such as the heart and skeletal muscle. The concentration is so low in most people that even when excreted in urine, they're undetectable by standard urine tests. I only mention this because most folks are unaware that's it's happening.
Ketone bodies are produced (in greater quantity than normal) by the liver (from fatty acids) during any of the following situations:- fasting/starvation,
- low-carb dieting,
- long bouts of intense exercise, and;
- uncontrolled/untreated Type1 diabetes.
When blood glucose is low (and the body wants it) and after liver glycogen is depleted, it is the intense gluconeogenesis process that happens during the above situations (when gluconeogenesis has been stimulated by low/absent insulin and high glucagon concentrations in the blood) that provides the glucose the body wants/needs, and in-turn that causes the ketone-body production. Here's how:
When glucose is low and glycogen stores depleted, for the synthesis of glucose to occur a different source of carbons is required. Glycerol released from adipose (fat) tissue during lipolysis ('fat-burning') provides some of the carbons, with the remaining carbons coming from the hydrolysis of lean-tissue / muscle proteins.
Quick biochemistry tutorial: All of our cells ultimately require a substance called ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) for cellular-respiration (ie: life
). The citric-acid cycle (also called the Krebs cycle or TCA cycle) is a series of chemical reactions used to release energy through oxidation of a substance called acetyl-CoA (acetyl-Co-Enzyme A) into CO2 and ATP. This cycle starts with a 2-carbon acetyl group from acetyl-CoA getting together with a compound called oxaloacetate to form citrate.
However, gluconeogenesis itself results in depletion of oxaloacetate (because it's diverted from the citric-acid cycle in order to form glucose in this chemical process) which, in-turn, causes a rise in the levels of acetyl-CoA - which just happens to be the substrate for ketone body production. It's the resulting accumulation of acetyl-CoA that activates ketogenesis. So basically, while the liver is doing all this gluconeogenesis work, it's also creating ketones from that acetyl-CoA ... The ketone bodies and the newly-produced glucose are both released into the bloodstream together. As time goes on and we approach keto-adaptation/nutritional ketosis .. the brain utilizes more ketones and less glucose, and the heart uses ketones as well.
Before keto-adaptation occurs (with the acetyl-CoA unable to enter the citric-acid cycle as a result of depletion of oxaloacetate which is needed for gluconeogenesis) the rate of production of ketones exceeds their utilization, causing ketonemia (which just means excess ketones in the blood, basically). This will be followed by ketonuria (yes, excess ketones in urine) as the body works to get rid of them. Once we hit this state, that's when people can smell the acetoacetate and/or acetone in breath and urine.
Over time what happens for low-carb dieters (and those starving, alike) is that the body starts to utilize glucose less for ATP generation and relies more and more on converting fat into ketones, and then converting ketones into substrate for the citric-acid cycle. This is why our ketone breath and ketonuria eventually diminish or disappear.
Ultimately, even when keto-adapted we continue the process of gluconeogenesis - just on a smaller scale. We all know the brain needs a little to be synthesized - even with keto-adaptation. What most don't know is that the erythrocytes, kidney medulla and testes (in men, obviously) exclusively utilize glucose for ATP production.
BTW - fun fact ... as ATP is recycled hundreds of times ... over the course of a day each one of us actually uses roughly our own body-weight in ATP for cellular respiration.3 -
albertabeefy wrote: »OK, let me explain this differently so we can hopefully all be clear on how gluconeogenesis results in the production of ketone bodies, as there appears to be some confusion and lack of understanding of the concept.
Sorry for the wall-of-text ... but biochemistry just doesn't always have a "Coles Notes" way tor explanations.
First as an FYI, in normal folks the liver always provides a constant production of ketone bodies. Not a lot, and it just happens. They are used quite effectively by extra-hepatic (ie: outside the liver) tissues such as the heart and skeletal muscle. The concentration is so low in most people that even when excreted in urine, they're undetectable by standard urine tests. I only mention this because most folks are unaware that's it's happening.
Ketone bodies are produced (in greater quantity than normal) by the liver (from fatty acids) during any of the following situations:- fasting/starvation,
- low-carb dieting,
- long bouts of intense exercise, and;
- uncontrolled/untreated Type1 diabetes.
When blood glucose is low (and the body wants it) and after liver glycogen is depleted, it is the intense gluconeogenesis process that happens during the above situations (when gluconeogenesis has been stimulated by low/absent insulin and high glucagon concentrations in the blood) that provides the glucose the body wants/needs, and in-turn that causes the ketone-body production. Here's how:
When glucose is low and glycogen stores depleted, for the synthesis of glucose to occur a different source of carbons is required. Glycerol released from adipose (fat) tissue during lipolysis ('fat-burning') provides some of the carbons, with the remaining carbons coming from the hydrolysis of lean-tissue / muscle proteins.
Quick biochemistry tutorial: All of our cells ultimately require a substance called ATP (Adenosine Triphosphate) for cellular-respiration (ie: life). The citric-acid cycle (also called the Krebs cycle or TCA cycle) is a series of chemical reactions used to release energy through oxidation of a substance called acetyl-CoA (acetyl-Co-Enzyme A) into CO2 and ATP. This cycle starts with a 2-carbon acetyl group from acetyl-CoA getting together with a compound called oxaloacetate to form citrate.
However, gluconeogenesis itself results in depletion of oxaloacetate (because it's diverted from the citric-acid cycle in order to form glucose in this chemical process) which, in-turn, causes a rise in the levels of acetyl-CoA - which just happens to be the substrate for ketone body production. So basically, while the liver is doing all this work, it's also creating ketones from that acetyl-CoA ... The ketone bodies and the newly-produced glucose are both released into the bloodstream together. As time goes on and we approach keto-adaptation/nutritional ketosis .. the brain utilizes more ketones and less glucose, and the heart uses ketones as well.
Before keto-adaptation occurs (with the acetyl-CoA unable to enter the citric-acid cycle as a result of depletion of oxaloacetate which is needed for gluconeogenesis) the rate of production of ketones exceeds their utilization, causing ketonemia (which just means excess ketones in the blood, basically). This will be followed by ketonuria (yes, excess ketones in urine) as the body works to get rid of them. Once we hit this state, that's when people can smell the acetoacetate and/or acetone in breath and urine.
Over time what happens for low-carb dieters (and those starving, alike) is that the body starts to utilize glucose less for ATP generation and relies more and more on converting fat into ketones, and then converting ketones into substrate for the citric-acid cycle. This is why our ketone breath and ketonuria eventually diminish or disappear.
Ultimately, even when keto-adapted we continue the process of gluconeogenesis - just on a smaller scale. We all know the brain needs a little to be synthesized - even with keto-adaptation. What most don't know is that the erythrocytes, kidney medulla and testes (in men, obviously) exclusively utilize glucose for ATP production.
BTW - fun fact ... as ATP is recycled hundreds of times ... over the course of a day each one of us actually uses roughly our own body-weight in ATP for cellular respiration.
Thanks for taking the time to explain all this.
Where do we sign up for your class?1 -
Ok. Very detailed.
One more question. We've all heard how the presence of urine ketones is expected to decrease upon fat adaptation over time. But what reason might that not happen for some people? Why would some people, myself for example, continue showing large urine ketones pretty much all the time. I am pretty much carnivore... about 5g max carbs but only since April and I've been keto since May 2015.
But I constantly read that it reduces upon adaptation and mine hasn't. What would explain that?0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Ok. Very detailed.
One more question. We've all heard how the presence of urine ketones is expected to decrease upon fat adaptation over time. But what reason might that not happen for some people? Why would some people, myself for example, continue showing large urine ketones pretty much all the time. I am pretty much carnivore... about 5g max carbs but only since April and I've been keto since May 2015.
But I constantly read that it reduces upon adaptation and mine hasn't. What would explain that?
Excess protein being converted to glucose so you are not fully going into ketosis?0 -
First, it doesn't always decrease upon adaptation. It *usually* does, but everyone is slightly different.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Ok. Very detailed.
One more question. We've all heard how the presence of urine ketones is expected to decrease upon fat adaptation over time. But what reason might that not happen for some people? Why would some people, myself for example, continue showing large urine ketones pretty much all the time. I am pretty much carnivore... about 5g max carbs but only since April and I've been keto since May 2015.
But I constantly read that it reduces upon adaptation and mine hasn't. What would explain that?
Second, ketostix are a notoriously unreliable measure of your level of ketosis - though considerably cheaper than a meter...
Third, you state you eat 5g maximum carbohydrate ... that's going to keep you in deeper ketosis than most.
And finally ... women usually show deeper ketone levels than men on a ketogenic diet.
Factor those all in, and it might certainly explain it.
There may be other physiological factors at work - but without a lot more information, I can't speak to those.
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Ok. Very detailed.
One more question. We've all heard how the presence of urine ketones is expected to decrease upon fat adaptation over time. But what reason might that not happen for some people? Why would some people, myself for example, continue showing large urine ketones pretty much all the time. I am pretty much carnivore... about 5g max carbs but only since April and I've been keto since May 2015.
But I constantly read that it reduces upon adaptation and mine hasn't. What would explain that?
Excess protein being converted to glucose so you are not fully going into ketosis?
You can't have excess ketones without being fully in ketosis. You're either in or out.albertabeefy wrote: »
First, it doesn't always decrease upon adaptation. It *usually* does, but everyone is slightly different.Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Ok. Very detailed.
One more question. We've all heard how the presence of urine ketones is expected to decrease upon fat adaptation over time. But what reason might that not happen for some people? Why would some people, myself for example, continue showing large urine ketones pretty much all the time. I am pretty much carnivore... about 5g max carbs but only since April and I've been keto since May 2015.
But I constantly read that it reduces upon adaptation and mine hasn't. What would explain that?
Second, ketostix are a notoriously unreliable measure of your level of ketosis - though considerably cheaper than a meter...
Third, you state you eat 5g maximum carbohydrate ... that's going to keep you in deeper ketosis than most.
And finally ... women usually show deeper ketone levels than men on a ketogenic diet.
Factor those all in, and it might certainly explain it.
There may be other physiological factors at work - but without a lot more information, I can't speak to those.
Yeah that's always the answer I get.
It's just so vague. I feel like there must either be something wrong with the idea that it decreases or there is some mechanism that makes it vary from person to person and for no reason other than I want to know... I want to know. Lol
I know urine strips are junk but that's usually more in regards to false negatives or registering lower ketones. I've never heard of them reflecting higher that is actually present. Unless at least moderately dehydrated, which I doubt. Anyway, I test blood occasionally too and am always running well into nutritional ketosis land. It's not a matter of doubting adaption or anything. I just find all the mechanisms interesting and this is one puzzle that no one seems to have an exact explanation for. You just read that they decrease as if that's just the way it works. My head can't let go of the "but what about when it doesn't work that way"? Lol
Can't leave well enough alone!
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@albertabeefy you are giving me flashbacks from my Registered Personal Trainer days over 25 yrs ago, lol.0
This discussion has been closed.