Keto Question
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Just guessing without any research backing me up, but let's say you're doing 12 to 4PM as your eating window, and you have 50G of protein at 12PM and 50G of protein at 4PM - chances are you'd be synthesising a fair bit of that protein due to the time window between each serving - it seems like two to three hours is the window your body requires in order to break down and start processing it.1
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I usually eat a protein shake 1st - 12-16 oz milk, two scoops of whey powder, and maybe a frozen banana that is about 65g of protein
then a salad with some meat and cheese in it - 25 grams of protein
then whats for dinner - maybe another 20g of protein.
snacks later that may have some protein in it but not a complete protein like some home made wheat bread.
That is my current routine which I haven't done for a long time
what I did do for a long time was the shake and then the dinner which were very close together and I would eat more of the dinner.0 -
It'd be interesting for you to try shifting that protein absorption - maybe do a 40g protein shake, 20g salad and 40g dinner and see if it has any impact on your energy levels, and how quickly your muscles bounce back from exercise.0
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SymbolismNZ wrote: »It'd be interesting for you to try shifting that protein absorption - maybe do a 40g protein shake, 20g salad and 40g dinner and see if it has any impact on your energy levels, and how quickly your muscles bounce back from exercise.
I eat all those fairly close together so I'm not sure if it would make a difference. The snacking stuff is what extends my eating window to longer than an hour. If I didn't eat the shake I would be short on protein for sure (I may still be if not absorbing it all but wouldn't even be consuming enough without it).0 -
albertabeefy wrote: »Also of note - even for a non-exercising person, 30g of protein is a fair amount for one meal. Any studies I've seen trying to give an 'excess' of protein are offering 90-100g of protein at a time. That's a HUGE amount if you think about it. 100g of chicken breast, for example, has 31g of protein. You'd have to eat 12oz (3/4 of a lb!) of chicken breast in a single serving to hit the 90-100g threshold - which is phenomenally uncommon.
30g of protein in one meal is definitely way too much LOL
I can easily add up to 60 g/day because I usually have some kind of egg, meat/fish, or cheese in every meal, and then there are also some plant foods that have protein, like avocados, olives, etc.
If I go over 75-80 g in one day, my BG tends to spike.
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albertabeefy wrote: »Also of note - even for a non-exercising person, 30g of protein is a fair amount for one meal. Any studies I've seen trying to give an 'excess' of protein are offering 90-100g of protein at a time. That's a HUGE amount if you think about it. 100g of chicken breast, for example, has 31g of protein. You'd have to eat 12oz (3/4 of a lb!) of chicken breast in a single serving to hit the 90-100g threshold - which is phenomenally uncommon.
30g of protein in one meal is definitely way too much LOL
I can easily add up to 60 g/day because I usually have some kind of egg, meat/fish, or cheese in every meal, and then there are also some plant foods that have protein, like avocados, olives, etc.
If I go over 75-80 g in one day, my BG tends to spike.
I-lb of chicken might be a snack. That would not be hard to put down at all for me although I normally would not do that. I get about 100g protein in a couple of hours. 100 might be excessive in that amount of time but 30 is nothing in my opinion for a guy my size. That is about 5 egss which I don't consider a ton. More than 30-g for a keto diet might be excessive (I dont know) but for someone trying to put on muscle, that is not very much in my opinion.1 -
I'm not trying to put on muscle, just retain what I have, which is a lot of lean mass, for a fat person. I'm also T2 diabetic and not trying to eat 30 g/protein x3 meals per day. I already eat meat, fish, or eggs and almost always some cheese, with every meal. Based on info presented here, ~60 g per day is more than adequate, for a petite, sedentary woman, like me. In fact, it seems a bit much, considering women who are not involved in athletic activity only need 46 grams minimum.0
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Your body can't process more than 30-45g of protein properly within a normal sitting session (3-5 hour) - instead of being utilised as BCAA which help to repair and ultimately build muscle mass... anything above that per sitting undergoes gluconeogenesis and becomes glucose within your body, offering no benefits to the growth of your muscles.... now if you're a male, 200lb or so, eating say between 45-90g of protein within a sitting, there is only a marginal impact on glucose within your system. If you're eating 90g of protein every one of your sittings, you'll be generating more than enough glucose to kick you out of ketosis.
Ultimately you'd be much better off attempting to distribute your protein across all meals; for a female, somewhere in the 20 at Breakfast, 20 at Lunch, 20 at Dinner with a couple of 5 to 10g of protein snacks in between, for a male, 30, 30, 30 with snacks throughout your feeding cycle for another 10-20g
It's actually a major issue with intermittent fasting, for all of the benefits, you'll really struggle in terms of timing to get your required protein into your system.0 -
Correct. I don't do more than 20 g per meal. In fact, most of the time, it's 12-18, and maybe a few grams here and there, via a snack. I don't know where you got that I did...or whether you're talking to me, or someone else.0
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I would caution against generalizations about more than x protein, this or that happens. Our bodies are not all different. An example given by Dr Naly was about how quickly our bodies create glucose which was a rate of 80 to 280 mg per hour per KG of body weight I believe. I know I got the 80 and 280 correct but the timing might be off. The point being 80 and 280 are very far apart.
I have found out my elevated BG leading to T2 diagnosis was NOT due to IR as it is for most people. Mine was stress related. In fact, my body seems to be more insulin sensitive than average. That has led me to do some experimentation with my diet in terms of macros through the day and within meals and how my BG is affected.
I have found I can eat well over 100g of protein in a sitting without having a negative impact on my BG and without being kicked out of ketosis. An example would be eating an entire rotisserie chicken from the grocery store for dinner which is easily over 100g of protein. In fact, it is rare I don't have at least one meal a day with at least 80g of protein. This is partially due to the fact most days I only eat 2 meals and partially because I burn/consume 3200-3500 calories a day in maintenance.
As far as body size, I am 6'1" and 182-187 lbs depending on the day, so I am not that large.
I was looking for an article I read about the speed at which protein is processed by the body, but I haven't been able to locate it. The gist of the article was the number of 30g per meal came from research showing that we process 5-8g per hour, so with an average of 7g and 4 hours between meals, they came up with 30 (because everyone likes round numbers). However, research also shows that the protein doesn't just stop being processed because you hit 4 hours or because you have your next meal. Your body will just keep on processing it.
As for gluconeogenesis, it appears, from actual research (not articles based on opinions) to be demand driven and not supply driven meaning it is based on your body needing the glucose and not just because you have extra protein. If it was just because you had extra, your body would create more glucose from fat as it can do that from the glycerol in the triglyceride.
The exception being people who are highly IR whose bodies seem to turn to gluconeogenesis much more quickly and do need to limit the amount of protein intake at any given meal.2 -
cstehansen wrote: »The exception being people who are highly IR whose bodies seem to turn to gluconeogenesis much more quickly and do need to limit the amount of protein intake at any given meal.
That would be me. I have been diabetic since 2007 and can tell you for a fact that meats (especially fatty ones) would spike me just as bad as say, half a cup of rice, back in the day...when I was pre-keto. Now, my spikes only average for a small window and go away not long after (so far, I've only measured 2 hours after a meal and then again before the next, and the next reading is more low.
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Here's a great listen relating to protein by Gabrielle Lyon. She seems to believe in eating more protein and gives explanations why.
Obviously, this is not applicable in an insulin resistant system where excess GNG would be an issue.
She may or may not cover that too. I don't actually recall.
http://video2.fatsummit.com/audio/Gabrielle_Lyon.mp32 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Here's a great listen relating to protein by Gabrielle Lyon. She seems to believe in eating more protein and gives explanations why.
Obviously, this is not applicable in an insulin resistant system where excess GNG would be an issue.
She may or may not cover that too. I don't actually recall.
http://video2.fatsummit.com/audio/Gabrielle_Lyon.mp3
She is the bomb - great presentation!1 -
I'm not trying to put on muscle, just retain what I have, which is a lot of lean mass, for a fat person. I'm also T2 diabetic and not trying to eat 30 g/protein x3 meals per day. I already eat meat, fish, or eggs and almost always some cheese, with every meal. Based on info presented here, ~60 g per day is more than adequate, for a petite, sedentary woman, like me. In fact, it seems a bit much, considering women who are not involved in athletic activity only need 46 grams minimum.
That makes sense to me, especially if you are T2 since any excess you don't need going to glucose. Thanks1 -
SymbolismNZ wrote: »Your body can't process more than 30-45g of protein properly within a normal sitting session (3-5 hour) - instead of being utilised as BCAA which help to repair and ultimately build muscle mass... anything above that per sitting undergoes gluconeogenesis and becomes glucose within your body, offering no benefits to the growth of your muscles.... now if you're a male, 200lb or so, eating say between 45-90g of protein within a sitting, there is only a marginal impact on glucose within your system. If you're eating 90g of protein every one of your sittings, you'll be generating more than enough glucose to kick you out of ketosis.
Ultimately you'd be much better off attempting to distribute your protein across all meals; for a female, somewhere in the 20 at Breakfast, 20 at Lunch, 20 at Dinner with a couple of 5 to 10g of protein snacks in between, for a male, 30, 30, 30 with snacks throughout your feeding cycle for another 10-20g
It's actually a major issue with intermittent fasting, for all of the benefits, you'll really struggle in terms of timing to get your required protein into your system.
I'm doing a 20:4 IF diet and If I keep that diet I only have the 4-hours to get my protein in. Something would have to give. I'm going to monitor my blood glucose and see how it is doing with getting in about 100g of protein in my 4-hrs (most of it eaten in about 1-hour).
I'm not trying to do a LCHF diet at present and have just barely given up most processed sugar. I am interested in learning here though.0 -
cstehansen wrote: »I would caution against generalizations about more than x protein, this or that happens. Our bodies are not all different. An example given by Dr Naly was about how quickly our bodies create glucose which was a rate of 80 to 280 mg per hour per KG of body weight I believe. I know I got the 80 and 280 correct but the timing might be off. The point being 80 and 280 are very far apart.
I have found out my elevated BG leading to T2 diagnosis was NOT due to IR as it is for most people. Mine was stress related. In fact, my body seems to be more insulin sensitive than average. That has led me to do some experimentation with my diet in terms of macros through the day and within meals and how my BG is affected.
I have found I can eat well over 100g of protein in a sitting without having a negative impact on my BG and without being kicked out of ketosis. An example would be eating an entire rotisserie chicken from the grocery store for dinner which is easily over 100g of protein. In fact, it is rare I don't have at least one meal a day with at least 80g of protein. This is partially due to the fact most days I only eat 2 meals and partially because I burn/consume 3200-3500 calories a day in maintenance.
As far as body size, I am 6'1" and 182-187 lbs depending on the day, so I am not that large.
I was looking for an article I read about the speed at which protein is processed by the body, but I haven't been able to locate it. The gist of the article was the number of 30g per meal came from research showing that we process 5-8g per hour, so with an average of 7g and 4 hours between meals, they came up with 30 (because everyone likes round numbers). However, research also shows that the protein doesn't just stop being processed because you hit 4 hours or because you have your next meal. Your body will just keep on processing it.
As for gluconeogenesis, it appears, from actual research (not articles based on opinions) to be demand driven and not supply driven meaning it is based on your body needing the glucose and not just because you have extra protein. If it was just because you had extra, your body would create more glucose from fat as it can do that from the glycerol in the triglyceride.
The exception being people who are highly IR whose bodies seem to turn to gluconeogenesis much more quickly and do need to limit the amount of protein intake at any given meal.
Thanks0 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »Here's a great listen relating to protein by Gabrielle Lyon. She seems to believe in eating more protein and gives explanations why.
Obviously, this is not applicable in an insulin resistant system where excess GNG would be an issue.
She may or may not cover that too. I don't actually recall.
http://video2.fatsummit.com/audio/Gabrielle_Lyon.mp3
I'm still crazy nutso frustrated w/the constant protein debate and am also T2D, so I will listen to this - she's one of the Fat Summit 2 folks I wanted to hear. Thanks.1
