Diabetes & pancreatic troubles
suzc11
Posts: 79 Member
2 years ago today we lost my brother, then just 53, to pancreatic cancer (so forgive me if I'm a bit dramatic!) The prevailing symptom was unexplained diabetes. He was like a lot of people who find their way to this WoE, he was overweight but active, big beer belly, so it didn't really come as a surprise. They treated the diabetes for a long time. For a while it worked and all the weight came off. Only when he started having lots of digestive problems and his bg was still out of whack that they thought perhaps the diabetes was the symptom and not the problem, and by then it was too late. Not sure why I'm saying all this except to flag up the link between the two. If in doubt, get it checked out, folks.
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I am sorry for your loss. My best friend from HS died about 6 years ago from acute pancreatitis. It just came out of the blue one day with no previous symptoms that pointed to what was coming. He was just admitted to the hospital one day with pain and dead within a week. He was 41. I don't think the pancreas is understood as well as would would like to think it is.
This is appreciated. You just hit the nail on the head as to why we need to move to a functional medicine approach. Right now, practicing medicine means finding either medication or surgery that addresses a symptom. What we need to do is look at what is causing the symptom(s) to address that root cause.7 -
I am also sorry for both of your loses.cstehansen wrote: »This is appreciated. You just hit the nail on the head as to why we need to move to a functional medicine approach. Right now, practicing medicine means finding either medication or surgery that addresses a symptom. What we need to do is look at what is causing the symptom(s) to address that root cause.
I agree that a functional approach to medicine would yield better patient outcomes in the long run, but with the patient loads and loads of crap paperwork for the government (and the blood-sucking malpractice lawyers), it's pretty difficult for most doctors to justify the time that it would take. Add in the problem that we live in an 'instant gratification' driven society, and most people simply want their doctors to prescribe a pill/recommend a surgery that will relieve the symptoms immediately and forget about dealing with the under-lying causes of the actual problem.3 -
I am also sorry for both of your loses.cstehansen wrote: »This is appreciated. You just hit the nail on the head as to why we need to move to a functional medicine approach. Right now, practicing medicine means finding either medication or surgery that addresses a symptom. What we need to do is look at what is causing the symptom(s) to address that root cause.
I agree that a functional approach to medicine would yield better patient outcomes in the long run, but with the patient loads and loads of crap paperwork for the government (and the blood-sucking malpractice lawyers), it's pretty difficult for most doctors to justify the time that it would take. Add in the problem that we live in an 'instant gratification' driven society, and most people simply want their doctors to prescribe a pill/recommend a surgery that will relieve the symptoms immediately and forget about dealing with the under-lying causes of the actual problem.
We are on a big ship with a small rudder. It is going to take a long time and a lot of effort to get this changed - much like changing the concept of low fat = healthy.1 -
I had a young friend who was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in her early 20's, with no identified risk factors, and as far as I know, up until her death was not labeled diabetic. She died after a couple years of fighting. The cancer was found following testing to have her tubes tied after her daughter was about 2, I think, and due to her young age and only having one child, they didn't want to authorize the surgery without extensive testing. It was already quite extensive once they found it...
It is for reasons like this and above that I fight so hard against mainstream medicine right now... I hate that any of this had to happen when there might have been far more issues at hand from the inception.
Sincerest condolences on all losses.1 -
OP, you're very right! Sorry for your loss and @cstehansen too. That's really young and abrupt in both cases.
The more I research T2D, the more it seems the pancreas is very vulnerable to hyperinsulinimia and visceral fat surrounding and inside the gland.
IMO Dr. Roy Taylor is a pioneer in developing non-surgical clinical protocols for reversing T2D. His approach is to target the fatty pancreas to reverse T2D in a guerilla style attack. His theory is that when we hit our individual Personal Fat Threshold (PFT ), the stage when the pancreas loses function due to visceral fat, T2D is on the horizon. His theory elegantly includes those of us who are TOFI. Normal weight people with abdominal fat.
https://youtu.be/6vsrB_dlUzI
It could be argued that both a fatty liver and pancreas are important players on the road to T2D. https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fatty-liver-t2d-25/
I'm not quite sure what's going on, but either the beta cells "burnout" by too much abuse OR the gland gets damaged by the hyperinsulinmia OR the fat prevents the gland to function properly. Or a combo of all above. Suffice to say, Dr Taylor's protocol is probably only for the very motivated. Getting healthy isn't comfy. The protocol has been popularized by Mosley into the 8 week Blood Sugar Diet. He changed the protocol to 800 kcal, but it seems to work for many people according to the reviews on amazon. Someone in this group posted some time ago about doing it...but didn't talk about any results or lack of it. I would be interested to hear more about that!
I think the data from Dr Joseph Kraft and his +14k insulin measurement are invaluable info in understanding more about how and why someone can be obese and not T2D, while someone else is both T2D and obese. Ty @RalfLott for that reminder. A vid with Croft showing why insulin PP 2-5 hrs are the most in informative numbers regarding hidden diabetes "diabetes in-situ".
https://youtu.be/pYta4vme5is'
I have a personal stake here. Asians are at higher risk for being TOFI. "Of the 422 million adults with the chronic disease, an estimated 129.3 million were in China, the Global Report on Diabetes" from WHO. Possibly up to 500 mill have prediabetes in China...With current thresholds to measure T2D. Hga1c at 5.7%. In the wake of T2D is also the up to 40% increased risk of coronary stroke and correlation with diabetes and cancer and Alzheimer's. It's gonna be a disaster when the Chinese government simply won't have the funds to treat all the patients. (it doesn't look swell for western govts either).
The problem is...you can't stop people from slowly eating themselves to death. I'm not sure even informing people of the risk for blindness or amputations is motivating enough to stop eating cake and cookies...or goddamn "healthy" wholegrain muffins.4 -
Very sobering info from everyone. There's so much to be aware of. It will definitely help to treat ourselves as good as we can and hope we detect any issues early on.
Thanks for sharing these stories1 -
Foamroller wrote: »OP, you're very right! Sorry for your loss and @cstehansen too. That's really young and abrupt in both cases.
The more I research T2D, the more it seems the pancreas is very vulnerable to hyperinsulinimia and visceral fat surrounding and inside the gland.
IMO Dr. Roy Taylor is a pioneer in developing non-surgical clinical protocols for reversing T2D. His approach is to target the fatty pancreas to reverse T2D in a guerilla style attack. His theory is that when we hit our individual Personal Fat Threshold (PFT ), the stage when the pancreas loses function due to visceral fat, T2D is on the horizon. His theory elegantly includes those of us who are TOFI. Normal weight people with abdominal fat.https://youtu.be/6vsrB_dlUzI
It could be argued that both a fatty liver and pancreas are important players on the road to T2D. https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fatty-liver-t2d-25/
I'm not quite sure what's going on, but either the beta cells "burnout" by too much abuse OR the gland gets damaged by the hyperinsulinmia OR the fat prevents the gland to function properly. Or a combo of all above. Suffice to say, Dr Taylor's protocol is probably only for the very motivated. Getting healthy isn't comfy. The protocol has been popularized by Mosley into the 8 week Blood Sugar Diet. He changed the protocol to 800 kcal, but it seems to work for many people according to the reviews on amazon. Someone in this group posted some time ago about doing it...but didn't talk about any results or lack of it. I would be interested to hear more about that!
I think the data from Dr Joseph Kraft and his +14k insulin measurement are invaluable info in understanding more about how and why someone can be obese and not T2D, while someone else is both T2D and obese. Ty @RalfLott for that reminder. A vid with Croft showing why insulin PP 2-5 hrs are the most in informative numbers regarding hidden diabetes "diabetes in-situ".https://youtu.be/pYta4vme5is'
I have a personal stake here. Asians are at higher risk for being TOFI. "Of the 422 million adults with the chronic disease, an estimated 129.3 million were in China, the Global Report on Diabetes" from WHO. Possibly up to 500 mill have prediabetes in China...With current thresholds to measure T2D. Hga1c at 5.7%. In the wake of T2D is also the up to 40% increased risk of coronary stroke and correlation with diabetes and cancer and Alzheimer's. It's gonna be a disaster when the Chinese government simply won't have the funds to treat all the patients. (it doesn't look swell for western govts either).
The problem is...you can't stop people from slowly eating themselves to death. I'm not sure even informing people of the risk for blindness or amputations is motivating enough to stop eating cake and cookies...or goddamn "healthy" wholegrain muffins.
The study being referenced in the first video is one I found early on after getting the T2 diagnosis. Digging in, it seemed logical to me that if "controlling" BG primarily by jacking up insulin either through oral meds that increased your own production or through insulin injections did little to nothing to improve long-term prognosis, then keeping BG lower some other way seemed logical.
I was at a bit of a loss because the only approach being advocated out of this, if I remember correctly, was essentially dropping calories down low enough to mimic gastric bypass causing rapid fat loss with the expectation it would remove fat from the pancreas which was essentially preventing it from producing enough insulin. My problem was I was 6'1" and 190 lbs with about 18-19% body fat. I did not have enough body fat to lose to get the kind of results they were showing.
Before I ever heard of LCHF or keto, I figured on my own if I dramatically cut my carb intake (because I did know enough to know all of those turned to glucose in my blood), that would be a better option for me. Sure enough, it dropped me from the diabetic range back to pre-diabetic.
I think Dr Kraft is definitely on target. His book is one that I have on my list to read. I vividly remember this interview from the keto summit discussing his study because I listened to it twice.
It seems to indicate if one is IR, the beta cells will continually ramp up production naturally to try to maintain normal BG until they burn out. This would explain why Roy Taylor is saying those diagnosed with T2 have already lost 50% of production. It is because they don't get diagnosed until the IR is so bad for so long that the beta cells are no longer able to overcompensate. If we diagnosed based on the insulin assay proposed by Dr Kraft where diagnosis would be based on insulin response, we could begin addressing much sooner BEFORE the beta cells have been damaged.
Both of these seem to be strictly focused on those with IR caused T2, which is the vast majority. However, this is why a functional medicine approach is needed so those of us oddballs who manage to get there without being IR don't just get the treatment associated with IR, just because it is easier to assume and run everyone through the cattle lines we call doctors' offices.4 -
Dr. Crofts and Chris Masterjohn PhD from the Keto Summit were the ones who started me down the path to figuring out my own hiccups. I'll have to watch these when I've more time to pay full attention.
That being said, does anyone know which tests should be run to determine beta cell function in a pre-diabetic (or pre-pre/in situ person who is insulin resistant)? The tests I have seen mostly refer to T1D... C-Peptide is a hard thing to interpret... I'd be interested if anyone can direct me to which tests provide the most comprehensive results here.1 -
My apologies if these interviews with Dr. Kraft have already been posted, but just in case, here are 4 vids with Ivor Cummins.
(If you're interested, be sure to read the accompanying blurbs on Youtube for links to more info at http://www.thefatemperor.com.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtGiGPNjsIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0nV-_ddXoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgs6Sv_HdE4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIDypIhrz4c
@baconslave2 -
Here's a discussion about Kraft's work with Ivor Cummins, Ted Naiman, and Jeffry Gerber.
https://youtu.be/193BP6aORwY 1 -
Look at that video haul! *whistles*2
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@suzc11 I'm sorry for the loss of your brother and for the losses that others have shared. My mother was just diagnosed with this terrible disease. We're still waiting to learn whether she is a candidate for surgery but it seems unlikely. Her sister was diagnosed with it three years ago and passed away within three weeks of diagnosis.
Thank you for spreading the word about the connection between diabetes and pancreatic cancer. I was unaware of this until recently. My mother was diagnosed with T2D about 20 years ago and the doctor said he suspected she had probably had it for at least 10 years prior to diagnosis (she would always eat healthy when she had a doctor's appointment coming up, so in the early years when her blood sugar was rising it seems likely that she escaped detection by doing this). She struggled with her weight even as a toddler and has been morbidly obese for most of her adult life. She, like so many others, tried to lose weight over and over, most often using lowfat, low calorie diets as instructed. What is it going to take for the medical community to get the word out and promote the LCHF/Keto WOE to their diabetic patients as a means to cure diabetes and equally important to all patients as a way to prevent diabetes?
I feel so grateful that I found this WOE and group. With so many diabetics in my family, I was searching for ways to prevent it. I just wish I found it earlier so I could have helped my mom.
Thanks to all of you who share your knowledge and experience, you've helped me, and I know you are helping other too.6 -
Lot of good info. It was a friend who had pancreatic cancer at the time I started this WOE that drove me to put myself through several cancer resolving protocols used in Europe and Asia.
Keeping our CRP (C-Reactive Protein) levels very low seems to be key in preventing cancer and all health related issues. Lowing my CRP level is about the only factor I work on now. In doing that I am addressing mitochondrial health by default.4 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Lot of good info. It was a friend who had pancreatic cancer at the time I started this WOE that drove me to put myself through several cancer resolving protocols used in Europe and Asia.
Keeping our CRP (C-Reactive Protein) levels very low seems to be key in preventing cancer and all health related issues. Lowing my CRP level is about the only factor I work on now. In doing that I am addressing mitochondrial health by default.
I just now read an article since you mentioned this @GaleHawkins. Seems most everything is benefited by exercise (which the article I read indicates). I'm going to go take my walk now for that added benefit. Thanks.
Adding, my compassion to all of you who have friends and loved ones who passed with pancreatic cancer. My Mom had a couple bouts with colo-rectal and when it metastasized to her pancreas, her life ended very quickly. It is a very painful, painful cancer. This is once case where I will give praise to big pharma for keeping her comfortable.1 -
2 years ago today we lost my brother, then just 53, to pancreatic cancer (so forgive me if I'm a bit dramatic!) The prevailing symptom was unexplained diabetes. He was like a lot of people who find their way to this WoE, he was overweight but active, big beer belly, so it didn't really come as a surprise. They treated the diabetes for a long time. For a while it worked and all the weight came off. Only when he started having lots of digestive problems and his bg was still out of whack that they thought perhaps the diabetes was the symptom and not the problem, and by then it was too late. Not sure why I'm saying all this except to flag up the link between the two. If in doubt, get it checked out, folks.
I never really thought about that connection. Thank you for sharing this. My father died of pancreatic cancer in his early 40's, so it is probably something I should keep in mind for me and my family.
((hugs)) I am sorry for your loss.2 -
I was diagnosed T2D last July after my 4th or 5th pancreatis flare up. I had my gallbladder removed and first of many pancreatitis attacks in 2014. I am now diagnosed with chronic pancreatitis. I just started seeing an endo who put me on Humolog 3x a day and Levemir at night. My calcium levels are high and he said something about my thyroid so more tests coming. When first diagnosed i was averaging about 142 BG and my a1c was 6.9. Now I usually am over 240 and my a1c is 9+. My pancreas is very scarred from the pancreatitis attacks its,not producing insulin OR the digestive enzymes it's supposed to so I am on creon with food as well. Basically I'm a mess and my pancreas isn't working.
I'm sorry for the losses shared here. I lost my (adopted) mom in 2009 of pancreatic cancer 6wks after diagnosis.3 -
I was diagnosed T2D last July after my 4th or 5th pancreatis flare up. I had my gallbladder removed and first of many pancreatitis attacks in 2014. I am now diagnosed with chronic pancreatitis. I just started seeing an endo who put me on Humolog 3x a day and Levemir at night. My calcium levels are high and he said something about my thyroid so more tests coming. When first diagnosed i was averaging about 142 BG and my a1c was 6.9. Now I usually am over 240 and my a1c is 9+. My pancreas is very scarred from the pancreatitis attacks its,not producing insulin OR the digestive enzymes it's supposed to so I am on creon with food as well. Basically I'm a mess and my pancreas isn't working.
I'm sorry for the losses shared here. I lost my (adopted) mom in 2009 of pancreatic cancer 6wks after diagnosis.
That's pretty heavy! I hope you can get the best treatment dialed in quickly with the help of your new endo.
It sounds like you may be T1D, not T2D (or possibly both, like @midwesterner85). @Sunny_Bunny_ has a ton of experience with her daughter's T1D and might be able to refer you to some good resources (the only one I know is Type1Grit on social media).
I've taken Creon/pancreatin when I had pancreas trouble (probably acute pancreatitis - no fun
). It seemed to work pretty well....
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That's pretty heavy! I hope you can get the best treatment dialed in quickly with the help of your new endo.
It sounds like you may be T1D, not T2D (or possibly both, like @midwesterner85). @Sunny_Bunny_ has a ton of experience with her daughter's T1D and might be able to refer you to some good resources (the only one I know is Type1Grit on social media).
I've taken Creon/pancreatin when I had pancreas trouble (probably acute pancreatitis - no fun ). It seemed to work pretty well....
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Thank you @Ralflott. I hope so too. I hope so too. He did mention the possibility that I maybe combo or going into T1, and depending on how I respond having to go to a pump.
Any info on resources is appreciated, i am trying to learn what to do and gett
it done is slow work but I am trying, and could do better.
The creon is helping a lot, I still have digestive problems, mostly when I don't do what i should (you know how that goes).0 -
That's pretty heavy! I hope you can get the best treatment dialed in quickly with the help of your new endo.
It sounds like you may be T1D, not T2D (or possibly both, like @midwesterner85). @Sunny_Bunny_ has a ton of experience with her daughter's T1D and might be able to refer you to some good resources (the only one I know is Type1Grit on social media).
I've taken Creon/pancreatin when I had pancreas trouble (probably acute pancreatitis - no fun ). It seemed to work pretty well....
Thank you @Ralflott. I hope so too. I hope so too. He did mention the possibility that I maybe combo or going into T1, and depending on how I respond having to go to a pump.
Any info on resources is appreciated, i am trying to learn what to do and gett
it done is slow work but I am trying, and could do better.
The creon is helping a lot, I still have digestive problems, mostly when I don't do what i should (you know how that goes).
Why, yes, I do know.
I'm certain you'll get on top of it, considering how focused you are and religious about testing.
Of course, what's worked for someone, anyone else may not work for you, but at least it's a starting point.
From what @midwesterner85 has related, quite a few T1Ds develop T2D as they age.
Type1Grit (FB) had pretty extensive info on T1D when I looked around a few months ago, but a lot of it went over my head.
Hang in there - you'll get it figured out!1 -
I gotta jump in and make sure this isn't suggesting that T2D turns into T1D just because beta cells stop producing insulin... that's not how T1D works.3
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No insulin production as a result of pancreatitis.... if it's not T1D, then what is it? Apart from possibly having insulin resistance as well, aren't you still at the same place as someone who's has T1D since childhood?0
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No insulin production as a result of pancreatitis.... if it's not T1D, then what is it? Apart from possibly having insulin resistance as well, aren't you still at the same place as someone who's has T1D since childhood?
But T1D is an autoimmune disease. It's not just about not making insulin.1 -
Thanks Sunny_Bunny_. I am trying to wrap my head around it all and don t do well understanding technical and medical stuff. I have a follow up at the end of the month with endo.0
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Pancreatic diabetes has been labeled Type 3c in at least one article, assuming perhaps that the pancreatitis is not related to an autoimmune issue.
If the problem is a lack of insulin production, I'm not sure it matters what you call it when your goal is BG control through diet and insulin... ??2 -
I m with you, call it whatever I just want it controlled before something more serious happens.2
This discussion has been closed.