So Hangry :(

T1DCarnivoreRunner

I've been low carb for almost a year, except for a few cheat days. I started out with a 150g/day limit, then gradually decreased further and further. I started to lose nearly 5 times faster than before low carb even at the same calorie levels. That lasted for months and included faster fat loss, not just the initial water loss from glycogen depletion.

Lately, I've struggled to keep calories down and have basically stalled. Actually, I'm experiencing about 1 lb/week gain on average. I have about 10 lbs. more to lose and end up consistently over-eating calories (and occasionally as much as 100g-150g of carbs despite a current goal of 20g-30g). I've tried filling up on low calorie foods like pickles, which I buy in those gallon+ sized jars.

My last cheat day (for carbs) was in late October. My BG's became uncontrollably high (it took way more insulin and time than it should have to come back down again) for a couple days afterwards and electrolytes were screwed up for a few weeks. Right now, I would consider a carb cheat day, but it screws my body up way too much and I'm training for a challenging race on 4/1. I'm planning to do a cheat day instead late April, which should give me plenty of time to recover for the next race on 6/24.

So a carb re-feed / cheat day is out of the question for now. The options I see remaining are:
1. Continue to be hangry and keep doing what I'm doing, going over calories on occasion and ruining weight loss.
2. Increase daily calorie allotment to maintenance, which I expect to improve hanger but not to resolve it. Also, that delays weight loss.
3. Stop restricting calories entirely, focus on carb restrictions instead. This is expected to result in a gain. I find it very hard to lose, so that would hurt. Maybe it would hurt less than the hanger. The gain will obviously slow me down with races in addition to being discouraging for my loss plan.

I really want to reach my goal weight by the end of 2017 and it looks less and less likely as every day goes by. I should mention I've been trying to lose for more than 3 years now; have lost 44 lbs. (most of that has been since going low carb Mar. 2016), and my slow rate of loss is just as disheartening as the persistent hunger.

Which option should I choose and why?

kimberwolf71

I do not have any direct links to provide ATM, but I'm sure others have them handy.... based on what I have read and heard, I suggest option number 2 to enable your body to reset its metabolism. It may slow your weight loss progress initially, but that is better than seeing it go in the opposite direction or having you feel hangry!!

StacyChrz

I agree, eating at maintenance may be just the thing to get you past the hangries. Set a limit, like 2 weeks, and then slowly lower your calorie goal. I can't see your diary so I don't know what your fat/protein/carbs have been looking like but be sure you are not going over your carb goal, meeting your protein and eating fat to satiety. And be sure you get enough sodium, potassium and magnesium.

Foamroller

Hello friend
You have 10 lbs to lose within 2017? or did I misunderstand?

I suggest:
a) get your ducks in a row: control insulin induced fake hunger first, aka lower carbs gradually until you're able to distinguish fake from true hunger again. Eat maintenance level if it makes it easier.
b) once you have less appetite,focus more on how much you eat...and WHAT you eat. There are certain micronutrients needed for lipolysis too...not just a deficit.
c) look back at your diary from the time you lost fat. What's did you change?
d) putting a time limit for achieving GW might add more stress than motivation. If it puts you on a downer, why keep a stone in the shoe?

Don't be disheartened. Sometimes the fat loss journey is one step forward and two steps back.

I wish you the best whatever strategies you choose

allie2girlz

The more carbs i eat the hangrier I am, the more fat I eat the fuller I feel and can go longer between meals. Food for thought

T1DCarnivoreRunner

For those asking, I looked at net carbs over the past week. There was a 6K calorie day where I experienced carb creep, so I'm giving you all numbers:

Actual Average Net Carbs / Day: 44g
Average Net Carbs / Day (excluding odd day): 31g
Net Carbs on the 'carb creep' day: 122g

ETA: That includes today, where I've pre-logged dinner and have 27g net carbs today... but dinner quantities may change that by 1g-3g assuming I eat what I plan to eat but actual food measurements adjust a little bit.

cstehansen

I found this article helpful.

https://optimisingnutrition.com/2016/02/15/how-to-use-your-glucose-meter-as-a-fuel-gauge/

It helped me understand the difference between real hunger and hormone driven hunger. Once I had that, identifying what triggered the hormone driven hunger (hanger), I eliminated some foods, reduced others and adjusted eating patterns. I also found that when it was hormone and not real hunger, if I sucked it up for long enough it went away. The time it took to suck it up slowly got shorter and shorter. I had a bout of it this morning actually that I could tell by they way it felt that it was not real hunger. It only took about 30 minutes before it was gone. That was probably the first time in a couple of weeks that I have had the fake hunger, so I feel pretty confident in suggesting the strategy.

KnitOrMiss

Any mild exercise of 60 minutes or longer - or intense exercise over 30 minutes is shown to increase the hunger value above and over the calorie burn, usually more than double to triple. So if your training involves this level of workouts, you'll need to determine how to compensate.

What is your glucose looking like when you are hangry? I know personally from testing and anecdotal evidence that I can't eat over a certain amount of calories in a sitting without having a ridiculous insulin response due to my insulin resistance. Your situation compounds that significantly. Even with you having to inject/pump insulin in, if you go higher that a certain number of carbs, calories, or ketones, you can have the same type of disproportionate response.

And that is due to internal cellular fat levels which cause not only insulin resistance, which I know you're familiar with, but also cellular energy resistance. You're working to improve that with your workouts, but the fact that you can spiral out from 20-30 grams of carbs a day all the way up to 150 grams of carbs a day - which for nearly anyone maintaining or losing weight around a 30 gram carb daily level WOULD be a refeed/cheat day - tells me that you are likely no where near controlled on the cellular energy/insulin/glucose situation. To me, adding in intense and frequent exercise to that mix is ... worrisome.

Were you relatively controlled before you added it all in? I know that as a binge eater and compulsive eater, my carbs can swing like that, but generally NOT when I'm well controlled on my plan.

Do you have a functional medicine doctor who can get to the root of your issues beyond the Diabetes/Insulin Resistance stuff? I think you're missing something significant in this whole situation... Maybe a co-morbid condition, maybe a massive nutrient deficiency - or several... I don't know. I hope you find some answers.

Sending my good thoughts, regardless.

T1DCarnivoreRunner

Current BG doesn't seem to have much impact... no matter how high, low, or "normal" my BG is, I tend to be hangry. I had a few good weeks in early Jan., but frequency of exercise has definitely increased since then. Perhaps that is the reason for such additional hunger, but I do eat back most of my exercise calories. If hunger is greater than burn, then what is the solution?

XavierNusum

I agree with above. It sounds like you've been eating at a deficit for quite some time so a stint at maintenance calorie level might be what you need. Just to get the metabolism burning at a higher rate adjusted for new bw. So I would slowly increase calories to what you may calculate for new bw and stay there for 4 weeks or so. Then start decreasing. Also if you training for a run being in a deficit prior probably isn't the best for performance.

T1DCarnivoreRunner

Additional info for those who have asked: I do take several supplements, including magnesium. I get plenty of sodium from food and can recognize when that is the issue. I aim for and almost always achieve 1g / lb. lean body mass for protein.

cstehansen

midwesterner85 wrote: »

Current BG doesn't seem to have much impact... no matter how high, low, or "normal" my BG is, I tend to be hangry. I had a few good weeks in early Jan., but frequency of exercise has definitely increased since then. Perhaps that is the reason for such additional hunger, but I do eat back most of my exercise calories. If hunger is greater than burn, then what is the solution?

Most of the fake hunger I get is shortly after the gym. Keto endurance athletes tend to have BG spikes right after exercise. I have found this personally true. My highest readings ever have been right after exercise. By highest, I mean my highest all time PP has been in the 130's, my highest all time FBG has been about 120, but after a run, it is going to be at least in the 150's.

If I don't do a sufficient cool down to bring it down, this is when I am most likely to get hangry. My theory is not that I need it to come down, but rather that I need it to come down slowly. Whether I cool down or just stop, my BG will be back around 100 within 45 minutes. The difference is if I do a cool down, it comes down slowly and I don't get hangry. If I just stop, it stays high for a while and then just drops at which point I get hangry.

EDIT: normal PP for me is 90-110 and normal FBG is 110-115.

KnitOrMiss

midwesterner85 wrote: »

Current BG doesn't seem to have much impact... no matter how high, low, or "normal" my BG is, I tend to be hangry. I had a few good weeks in early Jan., but frequency of exercise has definitely increased since then. Perhaps that is the reason for such additional hunger, but I do eat back most of my exercise calories. If hunger is greater than burn, then what is the solution?

Honestly, the only things I've heard said by others (I'm not currently working out to this extent), are:

"deal, and don't allow over eating, period."

OR

"workout / train less."


I think you might be able to split your workouts if you schedule allows, but that much working out (all at once or broken up over the day) is bound to increase cortisol. And cortisol will wreak havoc on insulin and hunger. Once you have insulin in your bloodstream, all fat burning TURNS OFF.

I know that you're training and not specifically doing a bulk as one would in weightlifting withing the cutting/bulking cycle, but you are training in that you are building muscle for the new tasks you're training in, etc. It is commonly said that you can't realistically build muscle while eating at a deficit (generality, I know). Hence why most folks do a bulking cycle to put on weight, then cut to reveal the muscle, etc.

I definitely think that going to maintenance calories, and maybe working through at "lite" version of a bulk/cut cycle in your training *may* help with the muscle building, repair, and all that. You might need to do a moderate gain to safely endure the training you're currently undertaking...

Do you use BCAA's? There was one of the podcasts months back that said that anyone with aging issues, stress management issues, or adrenal issues should use something like them when training so as not to overtax body's natural resources (T3 medications were mentioned, as were adaptogens, 100% dropping gluten, and a few other things). Essentially, if you aren't using some forms of protein and amino acid supplements (or eating really wacky nutritional foods), you're likely hurting your muscles as much as helping them during this process, as to my understanding, any Diabetic person's ability to process and handle stress (even the stress of training) is impaired, generally by a significant margin. Nutrients alone are depleted with that level of workouts. I didn't go look at your diary specifically, but I'm assuming you're eating just a boatload of very nutrient dense foods? No junk?

I'll have to think on this one some more.

CarrieMoritz

I dunno about you, but running has always made me extremely hangry once I start trying to go for distance rather than speed. Training for 5k's usually do me in and I gain weight. Swimming does this, too. But doing bootcamps, HIIT, speed work, and weight training usually brings my hunger down. So could your marathon training be the actual cause of your hunger, too? Have you ever switched it up and tried other exercise forms for a while?

T1DCarnivoreRunner

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

midwesterner85 wrote: »

Current BG doesn't seem to have much impact... no matter how high, low, or "normal" my BG is, I tend to be hangry. I had a few good weeks in early Jan., but frequency of exercise has definitely increased since then. Perhaps that is the reason for such additional hunger, but I do eat back most of my exercise calories. If hunger is greater than burn, then what is the solution?

Honestly, the only things I've heard said by others (I'm not currently working out to this extent), are:

"deal, and don't allow over eating, period."

OR

"workout / train less."


I think you might be able to split your workouts if you schedule allows, but that much working out (all at once or broken up over the day) is bound to increase cortisol. And cortisol will wreak havoc on insulin and hunger. Once you have insulin in your bloodstream, all fat burning TURNS OFF.

I know that you're training and not specifically doing a bulk as one would in weightlifting withing the cutting/bulking cycle, but you are training in that you are building muscle for the new tasks you're training in, etc. It is commonly said that you can't realistically build muscle while eating at a deficit (generality, I know). Hence why most folks do a bulking cycle to put on weight, then cut to reveal the muscle, etc.

I definitely think that going to maintenance calories, and maybe working through at "lite" version of a bulk/cut cycle in your training *may* help with the muscle building, repair, and all that. You might need to do a moderate gain to safely endure the training you're currently undertaking...

Do you use BCAA's? There was one of the podcasts months back that said that anyone with aging issues, stress management issues, or adrenal issues should use something like them when training so as not to overtax body's natural resources (T3 medications were mentioned, as were adaptogens, 100% dropping gluten, and a few other things). Essentially, if you aren't using some forms of protein and amino acid supplements (or eating really wacky nutritional foods), you're likely hurting your muscles as much as helping them during this process, as to my understanding, any Diabetic person's ability to process and handle stress (even the stress of training) is impaired, generally by a significant margin. Nutrients alone are depleted with that level of workouts. I didn't go look at your diary specifically, but I'm assuming you're eating just a boatload of very nutrient dense foods? No junk?

I'll have to think on this one some more.

I use protein powder in weekday morning coffee. The protein powder I currently using has a pretty good mix, and includes BCAA's isoleucine, leucine, and valine. There is almost 10g total of BCAA's in that, plus I occasionally take additional BCAA's after working out. I am really thinking of increasing that after workout to every time because the delivery method is not through a protein powder; it is straight BCAA's along with a hydration mix and a few other non or low calorie substances, so calories are very low.

KnitOrMiss

Definitely worth trying the straight BCAA's consistently. Now, if that protein powder uses whey, it creates an insulinogenic response, but I don't know how that works with someone who is T1...would that increase your BG without additional insulin? Are you working out fasted aside from your small protein shake? Or is there more than 30 grams of protein in the shake that would create the response, also?

T1DCarnivoreRunner

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

Definitely worth trying the straight BCAA's consistently. Now, if that protein powder uses whey, it creates an insulinogenic response, but I don't know how that works with someone who is T1...would that increase your BG without additional insulin? Are you working out fasted aside from your small protein shake? Or is there more than 30 grams of protein in the shake that would create the response, also?

It increases BG, and I must take insulin for the protein powder. That's in my morning coffee. I'm generally working out in the evening, usually after dinner.

KnitOrMiss

So how does that work? You inject insulin, but since you're IR, you need more insulin than normal to process the glucose out of your bloodstream? I know my body makes insulin to process food I've eaten, but then if glucose stays elevated, it releases more (hence my question as to whether your calculations for insulin needed account for the IR? If not, that can make you hangry alone), making that lovely crapstorm that equals "instant fat storage of ALL resources because if there's insulin just hanging out, that means more food MUST be coming." If that's getting amped up by your exercise, which is supposed to increase insulin sensitivity of cells, I don't know what to think, honestly.

I know that I was told and have researched, but still haven't fully embraced that for my insulin resistance, until I regain a reasonable level of insulin sensitivity, my body isn't going to be able to handle the more intense or longer workouts, because those burn up all nutrients and add more stress to my body than it can handle currently, regardless of the IR...


@Gallowmere1984 - What do you take pre/post workout? I know you're maxing your training. How important are BCAA's, preworkout, etc.

Gallowmere1984

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

So how does that work? You inject insulin, but since you're IR, you need more insulin than normal to process the glucose out of your bloodstream? I know my body makes insulin to process food I've eaten, but then if glucose stays elevated, it releases more (hence my question as to whether your calculations for insulin needed account for the IR? If not, that can make you hangry alone), making that lovely crapstorm that equals "instant fat storage of ALL resources because if there's insulin just hanging out, that means more food MUST be coming." If that's getting amped up by your exercise, which is supposed to increase insulin sensitivity of cells, I don't know what to think, honestly.

I know that I was told and have researched, but still haven't fully embraced that for my insulin resistance, until I regain a reasonable level of insulin sensitivity, my body isn't going to be able to handle the more intense or longer workouts, because those burn up all nutrients and add more stress to my body than it can handle currently, regardless of the IR...


@Gallowmere1984 - What do you take pre/post workout? I know you're maxing your training. How important are BCAA's, preworkout, etc.

BCAAs are mandatory, but especially leucine. Fortunately, all animal sources of protein have a pretty good amount of them. Whey does have an abnormally high amount, but not so much that I'd consider using it exclusively. I generally tend to mix it with casein at least, to slow things down a bit. And even better source would be MPI, as it's just literal milk protein, which is 20% whey, 80% casein, and seems to have a slower digestion rate than even casein on it's own.

T1DCarnivoreRunner

I'm not technically insulin resistant anymore, but timing does create an issue there and I do end up high for a couple hours usually due to timing issues.

KnitOrMiss

midwesterner85 wrote: »

I'm not technically insulin resistant anymore, but timing does create an issue there and I do end up high for a couple hours usually due to timing issues.

@midwesterner85 - That's awesome progress!!! I'd missed the update. Congrats.