Yet Another Macros Question
gotblues66
Posts: 58 Member
I tried searching but I couldn't find anything worded quite the way I wanted, so sorry because I'm sure questions like this get asked all the time here. I'm male, smallish @ 155lbs, inactive day job and not the sporty type, but I've become a weightlifting enthusiast over the last 2 - 3 years. I started keto to challenge myself, to see if I could get my body fat from around 20% where I'm guessing I am now, to around 15% or less. When I did put on muscle over the last year I also added to my excess of fat around my midsection.
That said, I am thinking for protein I might want to be a bit higher than average. Maybe not quite the 1 - 1.5g per lb of lean muscle mass recommended by the bodybuilding "experts" but more than the average keto ratio. So I set MFP to 65/30/5 and I'm now on week 5. Not surprisingly I want to get fat adapted and start burning body fat as fuel as quickly as possible without losing too much muscle. MFP diary is showing me a consistent trend of maxing out my carbs, but being way low on both protein and fat. I read somewhere that regarding the macros in keto dieting, protein is a target and fat is only for satiety. But the carbs are the key. A typical day for me looks like around 19-25g net carbs, 80 - 100g protein, and only around 80 - 100g of fat. My calorie target is 1670 but I am coming in usually 200 below that.
I feel great. I have seen some weight loss (barely noticeable but only 4 weeks in). I am consistently peeing purple ketostix although I understand they are not accurate. And I am eating enough. I have been practicing 16/8 intermittent fasting for years now, so that may have something to do with the fact that I almost never feel hungry. But I am having a bugger of a time eating enough protein and fat without going over my carb limit. It doesn't take much in the way of veggies to hit that. I even paid primo dollars for a tub of zero carb whey isolate protein powder that I mix with unsweetened zero carb coconut milk, MCT oil, 36% heavy cream, to try to boost protein and fat with a minimum of carbs.
The question is, can ketosis work for fat loss even when one is consistently, even during the initial process to become fat adapted, way low on their fat macro? And if I am also low on protein, is it safe to assume that the worst that could happen is a bit more muscle loss than I'd like? Is it really just enough to keep carbs low and ignore the rest as long as you feel fine?
That said, I am thinking for protein I might want to be a bit higher than average. Maybe not quite the 1 - 1.5g per lb of lean muscle mass recommended by the bodybuilding "experts" but more than the average keto ratio. So I set MFP to 65/30/5 and I'm now on week 5. Not surprisingly I want to get fat adapted and start burning body fat as fuel as quickly as possible without losing too much muscle. MFP diary is showing me a consistent trend of maxing out my carbs, but being way low on both protein and fat. I read somewhere that regarding the macros in keto dieting, protein is a target and fat is only for satiety. But the carbs are the key. A typical day for me looks like around 19-25g net carbs, 80 - 100g protein, and only around 80 - 100g of fat. My calorie target is 1670 but I am coming in usually 200 below that.
I feel great. I have seen some weight loss (barely noticeable but only 4 weeks in). I am consistently peeing purple ketostix although I understand they are not accurate. And I am eating enough. I have been practicing 16/8 intermittent fasting for years now, so that may have something to do with the fact that I almost never feel hungry. But I am having a bugger of a time eating enough protein and fat without going over my carb limit. It doesn't take much in the way of veggies to hit that. I even paid primo dollars for a tub of zero carb whey isolate protein powder that I mix with unsweetened zero carb coconut milk, MCT oil, 36% heavy cream, to try to boost protein and fat with a minimum of carbs.
The question is, can ketosis work for fat loss even when one is consistently, even during the initial process to become fat adapted, way low on their fat macro? And if I am also low on protein, is it safe to assume that the worst that could happen is a bit more muscle loss than I'd like? Is it really just enough to keep carbs low and ignore the rest as long as you feel fine?
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So, in reading this, my answers would be:
You are working to burn body fat. As long as you don't pass the threshold for the "safe" amount of body fat the body accepts as "essential," your body should supply the fat deficit. Considering you're low already, this may not work as effectively, but it might work well still. Each person is different as to where that percentage is of body fat before the body hits "freak out mode" that has to gamed more effciently.
Being low on protein once a week or once in a while isn't a big deal. I would think that for the most part, you are correct - more muscle loss...and possibly more body strain to convert what you need. But you don't want to be consistently under.
Keeping your body at 20 grams of carbs forces the other processes to work ( @Sunny_Bunny can explain better). Keeping carbs that low forces protein to convert to glucose for brain function, etc. If you're converting all your protein, that will minimize your muscle repair and building ability. Fats can be converted, but are FAR less efficient.
To effectively cut/achieve more muscle, you actually might need to do a bulk/gain first. I don't have personal experience with this, but it's hard to build muscle at a caloric deficit. You really have to game the system to get all you need and do this. One person I know during his cut did a whole lot of chicken breasts and EFA (essential fatty acid) supplements to reach his macros. @Gallowmere1984 might have better info here. And sludge, he affectionately called another protein situation he used.
But to get more protein and more fats, you probably need to emphasize getting fattier cuts of meat. You're going to get more protein and fat out of 75% ground beef than chicken breasts, etc. Meats in natural form, other than liver and such, generally contain only negligible carbs. So if you have a nice fatty hunk of meat protein, it makes it easier to meet macros. Add to that the consideration of butter or MCT or cheese to make a sauce, etc.
@cstehansen might have something to add, as well. @lodro does extensive training for extreme racing, but might have some insight as well, being a vegetarian.1 -
When cutting my fat intake is basically just EFAs and trace fats in tuna and chicken. That said, I run a very extreme cutting protocol (RFL) so my intake is basically 90+% protein and the EFAs.
I hit 2g/lbs. LBM, and the reason for this is twofold.
A: protein is the most protein sparing macro (whodathunkit?) regardless of what arguments the carb/fat fanatics want to throw around.
B: I cut when I hit 16-17% bf, so I don't have huge fat stores to provide an excessive amount of energy cushion on a daily basis. Excess protein is deaminated by the liver and oxidized for energy, therefore I kill two birds with one macro.
However, my activity does have to be limited to 3x/week max intensity full body lift sessions, and maybe some light walking. I had to abandon my last cut early, because I thought I'd be a smartass and do 5 mile weight vest walks on 1200 kcal/day as a 5'10" 165 lbs male. Yeah, my body wasn't having that *kitten* and crashed six days into my 12 day cut.
That's the other thing: I only so it for very short periods of time now.2 -
@Gallowmere1984 - Would your sludge recipe possibly help him reach his protein and/or fat macros more readily?1
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It would put him way over on protein, if he's trying to run the macros he listed. However, to up the fats, one could just use the original sludge recipe, which was just 50g chocolate whey, 2 tbsp nut butter of choice, and water to desired consistency.1
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »It would put him way over on protein, if he's trying to run the macros he listed.
Good point. I checked my MFP goals settings and for the 1640 calories, 65/30/5 it's giving me targets of 118g fat, 123g protein and 21g carbs. I'm having a brain toot, but I guess that's about right since calories per g of fat are more than double that of protein.
In contemplation of this all a related question popped up. Is there a risk of throwing yourself out of ketosis if you consume too much protein in one sitting and, if so, does the amount of fat you consume along with it buffer that negative effect?
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »It would put him way over on protein, if he's trying to run the macros he listed.
Good point. I checked my MFP goals settings and for the 1640 calories, 65/30/5 it's giving me targets of 118g fat, 123g protein and 21g carbs. I'm having a brain toot, but I guess that's about right since calories per g of fat are more than double that of protein.
In contemplation of this all a related question popped up. Is there a risk of throwing yourself out of ketosis if you consume too much protein in one sitting and, if so, does the amount of fat you consume along with it buffer that negative effect?
The protein ketosis thing is very individual, and depends upon both insulin sensitivity and activity level. Gluconeogenesis is demand driven, not supply, however some individuals do seem to have a higher rate than others. The issue though, is that if your body decides it needs glucose, it's going to do it whether it takes it from your blood aminos (dietary protein), or from your stores (muscle and eventually organs) if your blood aminos aren't high enough.
I personally maintain keto during my RFL cuts, BUT since I am both heavily calorically restricted and still somewhat active, the effect is obviously different than what someone eating 3000 kcals worth of protein and/or mostly sedentary might see.
No, fat will not buffer this. Fat is just used as the "eat however much" macro because it doesn't contribute to insulin or BG response, not because it prevents the other two from doing so. If it worked that way, even carbs could be eaten in any amount, so long as a certain amount of fat were eaten along with it, and we all know that just doesn't work (otherwise SAD would likely be ketogenic).2 -
This is a great thread! Goes to show sometimes it's "how" you ask the question!
Great stuff @Gallowmere1984 Thanks for the insights! I'm attempting a slow cut right now. I lift 4-6x week. My stats differ significantly form the OP, but this stuff is still relevant.
5'6"
242lb
32% bf (from last dexa scan)
Looking ultimate goal, shooting for Aug '18, of 180lbs @ 15%.1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »The issue though, is that if your body decides it needs glucose, it's going to do it whether it takes it from your blood aminos (dietary protein), or from your stores (muscle and eventually organs) if your blood aminos aren't high enough.
Thanks for the insight. It makes sense that protein requirements are an individual variable. But I thought I read somewhere, perhaps in a Jason Wittrock article, that pounding down a whey protein shake with like 35g of protein can stimulate a insulin response and put the avg person out of ketosis. The recommendation was 20 - 25g max per meal. I can't recall if that was specific to whey protein or any protein source.
One more question, do you think that supplementing with BCAAs is a good idea for ketogenic weightlifters?0 -
1: short-term loss of keto isn't the issue many have made it out to be. There have been a lot of articles on the subject linked in the LCD community forum.
2: BCAA supplementation is only really useful in the absense of adequate consumption of them in the diet. If you're getting all of your protein from animal sources, this will almost mever happen. However, if you train fasted, they may be a good idea, though in that state, a lot of them will be deaminated and used for energy. Essentially, it would be better than nothing, but eggs or chicken or fish or beef would be better.1
