Food for Thought: Protein
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JohnnyLowCarb
Posts: 418 Member
Veterans on this board probably are well versed in this, but I am a newbie and for all other newbies here are of couple of my summarized learnings. If you are like me and on a LCHF (low carb high fat) diet, no where in there is a HP (high protein) - too much protein will trigger insulin production. I didnt realize that! LCHF'ers need to increase sodium! another huge learning. If your on a LCHF and not seeing results, check your protein sizes! Also, on LCHF you must, must increase your green vegetables. This will provide the fiber and nutrients that are gone when on a LCHF. Enough for now. I am really loving being on this journey with everyone on this board.
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You don't have to increase veggies. There are some here who do zero carb very successfully and for whom fiber causes digestive issues.4
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@johnnylew, I tend to follow both suggestions you indicated above" adequate/moderate protein and green leafy vegetables. I'm not an athlete and vegetables have fortunately never caused me digestive issues (and I like them).
Full Disclosure would be I follow one of the Medically Therapeutic Ketogenic Diets. There are about 6 (primary) for neurology. All of them are similar to what you indicate above: limit protein to adequate to maintain LBM or in the case of children to allow proper growth and include green leafy stuff. And eat all the fat. The Modified Atkins is the most lenient but the modification is, modified protein from the original flexibility. Example 52-62 grams on a 1000 calorie/day diet or 20%-25% of the 1000 calories.
I've never been able to determine why: if it is essential to keep protein down to stay in ketosis on a medically therapeutic diet for epilepsy, cancer, alzheimer's, parkinson's, etc because it can convert to glucose why it would not convert to glucose (or be irrelevant) in folks who are following a ketogenic diet for weight loss and desire to stay in ketosis. The only riff is one does not need to be in ketosis for weight loss so the excess protein consumption may not be critical to LIFE. (The supply/demand theory regarding conversion is known by me so that is not my point).
Actually, a link by Dr. Jason Fung was recently provided addressing this same point-protein being stored until it is in demand. It pointed out the end result being a very saggy body of excess adipose after weight loss of those who ate too much protein. Certainly that is only ONE weight loss expert's opinion and it is not in line with other expert opinion who advocate considerably higher protein. It caught my attention because I was always grateful that as an older (less elasticity), obese person who previously had a HUGE belly, I did not end up with a bunch of sag. Maybe I was just lucky or maybe it was because I never ate a high amount of protein. Dunno. I didn't lose via keto but my choice was to have all macros "moderate".
Your points are well founded in my opinion. Many just choose to "flex" them a bit for personal preference, health goals, etc.
Found the link:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/how-much-protein-is-excessive/5 -
@johnnylew, I tend to follow both suggestions you indicated above" adequate/moderate protein and green leafy vegetables. I'm not an athlete and vegetables have fortunately never caused me digestive issues (and I like them).
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Thanks KPK, I agree, what works for me might not work for others. Very true, plus I am in a weight loss mode, which again the majority on the board might just be in maintenance mode. Where green vegetables work very well for me, it might not for others. When I started LCHF I was eating alot of protein, more than 6 ounces sometimes per meal. I had no idea that too much protein could block the benefits of low carbs. Then when I kept reading (this board and other resources) I realized, there is no High Protein being promoted. It's high fats and low carbs. I am still learning, adjusting and finding what is right. Once I reach my ideal goal, then my perspective will change for I will have to stop the decrease and get into maintain mode.1 -
The meat. While on paper, it doesn't appear to be enough, one needs to keep in mind that the nutrients in meat are more bioavailable, because most are performed (the body can use directly) and aren't bound up in phytates and other antinutrients. So less is more.
For example, spinach is on par with steak for iron, on paper, but plant iron is about a quarter as usable as the iron in meat unless paired with a source of vitamin C.
If one includes offal, then meat blows plants out of the water entirely, even on paper. Even liver has far more nutrients than the other plant based super foods.7 -
One can eat an all meat diet and not need to supplement anything. The same is not true of an all vegetarian diet. That's why so many items are "fortified"1
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How much protein is too much protein? My current macros are around 40g carbs, 100g protein and 108g Fat but I keep thinking I've got my protein set too high and I struggle to to hit my fat goal daily. At least I am ok on the carbs.
Then again... today I've had 122g protein
I also need to track down some info on sodium/potassium/magnesium as I think that is another area I'm failing at.0 -
RodrigoBuntan wrote: »How much protein is too much protein? My current macros are around 40g carbs, 100g protein and 108g Fat but I keep thinking I've got my protein set too high and I struggle to to hit my fat goal daily. At least I am ok on the carbs.
Then again... today I've had 122g protein
I also need to track down some info on sodium/potassium/magnesium as I think that is another area I'm failing at.
To answer your question of how much is too much, we first need some info about yourself like height, weight, goals (lose weight, maintain weight, etc), activity levels, do you currently exercise (and what types - cardio/weights/mix), stuff like that.
I can tell you that I am currently averaging 110 - 120 grams of protein a day, and there are others in this group that go as high as 200+ grams a day.0 -
I should have guessed it is a very personalised number...
I'm male, 5'9" and 165lbs and I'm trying to get down to 140-145lbs (to be determined when I get there). I'm trying to lose around 1.5lb to 2lb a week and my calorie intake is set at 1500 a day.
I exercise once a week (I run 5k) but I'm working on increasing that to 2 and eventually 3 times a week (5k each time). Other than that I work in an office so sit down most of the day. I don't eat back my exercise calories.
Any advice/help would be greatly appreciated as, although I've lost weight before (I got down to 150 a year or two back), I've only been trying LCHF for just over 2 weeks.0 -
The gluconeogenesis thing doesn't actually work quite the way it is often thought to.
It's going to happen every day no matter how much protein you eat. Eating "too much" is really only applicable in a metabolism that is dysfunctional in such a way that you have a higher demand for glucose. Such as hyperinsulinemia. However, so many people are hyperinsulinemic even if they don't know it. That's why it's not uncommon for people to find that eating a lot seems to affect their blood sugar more. But, once insulin is lowered and the hyperinsulinemia begins to correct itself, or if you don't have it to begin with, there really is no reason to limit protein.
Essentially, GNG is demand driven. Not supply driven.2 -
Thanks for the info @RodrigoBuntan
General guidelines for you:
1. You don't want to lose muscle as you lose weight so keep the protein about where you have it now. Muscle takes more energy to maintain than fat so not losing the muscle will help to maintain a higher BMR as you lose.
2. The carb goal is very personal (unless you are doing this for medical reasons) - 40 grams is your set point so try to stay under that goal.
3. Fat - this is a bit tricky and takes some experimenting with levels, but the general rule is that you should stay under on carbs, hit the goal on protein and then eat enough of the fats to keep yourself from feeling hungry between meals. There is no reason to eat extra fat (like fat bombs or table spoons of fat just to hit the goal - your body has fat stores and any fat that it needs that does not come from food will come from the fat stores that you have. This is not to say that you need to eat low-fat! Fat is essential to the body for absorption of vitamins and for hormone production and regulation - eat fat, but don't worry if you are not reaching an arbitrary number from your foods.
Just a general warning - until your body becomes fat-adapted (using fat for fuel instead of carbs), you may find that your workouts suffer a little, but this will pass with time. Also, watch your electrolytes - salt is your friend and not your enemy - most of us in the LCHF world consume 3-5 grams of salt a day - this will help keep your body from flushing out other electrolytes and keeps your body in a better balance.1 -
Thank you so much for the advice/guidelines @ccrdragon
I will stop worrying about my protein intake and just keep a watchful eye on sodium & potassium.
I did notice a drop in performance the first week I was eating low carb but the next two runs I noticed an improvement - I had much more endurance, enough to pull of a full sprint finish.4 -
I know it has been said, but meat contains everything you need. As for the protein issue, as long as you get enough, I don't see any great harm in keeping it within a reasonable range. I, personally, don't see any great purpose/benefit in restricting it; but, lots of people feel like it helps them. The last 5 days I have averaged over 200 grams a day. It's not hurt my scale numbers at all. Actually, the opposite. My fat intake has been lower than usual. It hasn't been intentional. I've just been craving leaner cuts than normal. That and I have a bunch of goat meat. Goat is pretty lean to start with.
I guess the protein argument is important if ketone levels are your primary goal. I don't worry or even think of ketone levels, anymore. I used to be more obsessed than most everyone (tracking blood, breath, and urine ketones). These days, I just go with the flow.4 -
"And that's how I got my ever-cheery disposition and ability to see minor setbacks for the character tests they are, instead of the Chicken Little-scale calamities they're not."
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »The gluconeogenesis thing doesn't actually work quite the way it is often thought to.
It's going to happen every day no matter how much protein you eat. Eating "too much" is really only applicable in a metabolism that is dysfunctional in such a way that you have a higher demand for glucose. Such as hyperinsulinemia. However, so many people are hyperinsulinemic even if they don't know it. That's why it's not uncommon for people to find that eating a lot seems to affect their blood sugar more. But, once insulin is lowered and the hyperinsulinemia begins to correct itself, or if you don't have it to begin with, there really is no reason to limit protein.
Essentially, GNG is demand driven. Not supply driven.
Interestingly enough, the thing that most quickly corrected my hyperinsulinemia was carnivore, with no protein restriction.2 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »The gluconeogenesis thing doesn't actually work quite the way it is often thought to.
It's going to happen every day no matter how much protein you eat. Eating "too much" is really only applicable in a metabolism that is dysfunctional in such a way that you have a higher demand for glucose. Such as hyperinsulinemia. However, so many people are hyperinsulinemic even if they don't know it. That's why it's not uncommon for people to find that eating a lot seems to affect their blood sugar more. But, once insulin is lowered and the hyperinsulinemia begins to correct itself, or if you don't have it to begin with, there really is no reason to limit protein.
Essentially, GNG is demand driven. Not supply driven.
Interestingly enough, the thing that most quickly corrected my hyperinsulinemia was carnivore, with no protein restriction.
That doesn't shock me. Whole food protein sources tend to cause a lower and slower insulin increase, especially if fatty cuts are used. Slowed gastric emptying and all of that. Even whole milk protein causes a much lower increase than either of its components in isolation.3
