Bath salts

KeithF6250

No, not the illegal drug kind.

As one of my friends likes to say, "This getting old isn't for sissies." In my case I'm growing increasingly frustrated with not being able to remember stuff. I read (and I thought it was in this forum) about bath salts (Epsom salt) being a way to get essential minerals (sodium, potassium & others) without overshooting. I searched the sticky open threads but didn't find what I was looking for.

I'm asking for my grand daughter. My son & family are on vacation this week. Yesterday my grand daughter and her mom went to the resort's "salt spa." Grand daughter is 13 and suffers from juvenile arthritis. She is an active teenager and by the end of the day is often hurting a lot. At the end of the treatment she reported no pain, neck, back, feet: all good.

So what I'm looking for is anyone who has any experience or knowledge on using bath salts for either electrolyte balance or pain control.

codename_steve

I've been doing a bit of research on this the last couple days. What I've found is that the best salt to use is magnesium chloride (the epsom salt is magnesium sulfate). Here is a link to a brand I've heard is good:

https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Minerals-Magnesium-Bath-Flakes/dp/B005F1ATJQ/ref=sr_1_2_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1487980481&sr=8-2&keywords=magnesium+flakes

Also, you want to make sure you're getting enough calcium and vitamin D to aid the absorption.

The benefit in doing a bath vs an oral supplement, is that through the skin your body will only absorb as much as it needs. So no risk of toxicity, which results in intestinal issue.

ETA: this is for supplementing magnesium needs, not the sodium and potassium that you mentioned in the OP. But I have read that it helps with pain and electrolyte balance. You can supplement sodium with broth or Keto-ade.

Sunny_Bunny_

You don't want to take calcium without K2.
I'm not knowledgeable on this but @KnitOrMiss
Can probably elaborate.
Calcium is often a cause of joint pain. Especially if supplemented if I understand correctly.

Sunny_Bunny_

Also this thread might be of interest
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10517463/msm#latest

KeithF6250

Thanks for the info. Any decision to supplement will be a decision made by grand daughter, her mother and her doctor. She is already at the point of balancing between things which help her pain and what her stomach will tolerate, Another option will be helpful.

codename_steve

Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »

You don't want to take calcium without K2.
I'm not knowledgeable on this but @KnitOrMiss
Can probably elaborate.
Calcium is often a cause of joint pain. Especially if supplemented if I understand correctly.

Thanks for this! I've never even heard of K2. So I started a little research to figure out what it is and found this:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/12/16/vitamin-k2.aspx

This states that K2 is not only essential for calcium, but also vitamin D. Guess I need to look into my K2 intake! Supplements are hard.

KnitOrMiss

@KeithF6250 - I would honestly guess that the heat, salt, and magnesium. If we don't supply the body what it needs, it will leech what it needs out of our bones, muscles, tendons, and ligaments. So if she isn't getting enough to support her activities, her body will steal it elsewhere. Caffeine is another major factor in this, given her youth, health conditions, and absorption interference - so if she gets this anywhere (chocolate, coffee, soda, green tea, or any other format), it should be restricted as much as possible - or at least far away from meals or supplements.


@RalfLott recently posted the great link from Chris Masterjohn PhD on the Ultimate Vitamin K2 primer. HIS MAIN SITE

The main highlights I can say is that you need all of these things to help support bone and muscles and whole body health. Individual adjustments will vary. Remember that magnesium is needed in over 300 enzymatic and body support processes daily...most of us have to get to the point of extreme deficiency before we see the blazing signs of muscle cramps and pain, etc.

Water/sodium/magnesium/potassium/minor others - generally in that order. Most of us get enough potassium from food - magnesium is depleted in nearly all but grassfed/organic foods, even there, somewhat, so magnesium is generally needed (which is the main part of epsom salts/most bath salts/flakes).

Then, for muscle/bone/etc. health - you need:

• calcium (foods only - supplementation is risky due to weird formulas and such - so if you think you're consuming enough but not absorbing well, then make sure you're getting the cofactors as well before ever considering calcium supplements - because you'll just clutter up your arteries with calcium deposits that don't have a taxi driver to deliver them where they need to go).
• D3 and K2. These two should ALWAYS being in balance. D3 helps the calcium to absorb, and K2 tells it where to go. If I remember right, the ratio is 5000 IU of D3 to 25 mcg K2 (M7 form). I believe that is dialed back from 20,000 IU to 100 mcg relatively (Dr. Berg has a good presentation on this, too, and in facto states that some bone spurs and calcium deposits in veins/arteries can be healed but using MONITORED high doses of D3/K2 to go around and soak up extra calcium laying about in the blood, etc.)
• Magnesium, potassium - these go along with the sodium, too, but are needed in this process also. Again, most of us get enough potassium from food, but often need to supplement a good form of magnesium (avoid OXIDE)
• Zinc, boron - zinc has to be balanced with copper, but most people with any form of thyroid issue need more zinc that they are getting (generally due to unintended copper exposure or absorption issues) - and boron is a highly neglected nutrient that is said to be as important as magnesium, but only now as realized - and it's related to sex hormone balance as well, among other issues. Iodine seems to be part of this formula, too, and I believe selenium, and a few other more minor nutrients.

Once D3 helps calcium to absorb, K2 starts the bus moving, magnesium and potassium are the passport to get into the cells, zinc and boron facilitate absorption and work to lock the nutrients into the bone/muscle cells where it needs to stay. Also, these must ALL be taken with a fat of some kind, which is generally a non-issue for folks in this forum. D3 is a fat soluble vitamin, and requires fat to absorb. It is also called "the sunshine vitamin," so take it first thing in the morning, and if secondary doses are needed, in the 12-2 pm time, as that's our normal cortisol boost time, so that we taper off for melatonin to kick in to support our natural circadian rhythms. The major thing about D3 is that if you supplement with Vitamin A (which is also crucial), it should be offset by D3 for 12 hours, as they compete for absorption. Vitamin E may be included with D3 or A.

That ALL being said, being able to properly break down and absorb all nutrients is crucial. Chances are that if you have any outlying health conditions or any degree of metabolic syndrome that you can use some support in this area. There are anything from digestive bitters to ACV (with the mother) to other bile acids to digestive enyzmes, and everything between. It really depends on your individual situation. It is also very likely that once a degree of health is restored, these things may not be necessary life long, but gut health is crucial, and proper amounts of stomach acid and digestive enzymes are critical to proper gut health... Nearly everything comes back to gut health...

@GaleHawkins was actually the one who got me started in the K2 direction, as he was studying it deeply. My D3 levels had gotten so low as to be in the low 20's, and I was unable to get it to come up much at all, even with high doses of D3, until I finally paired it with K2 AND increased uses of bile acids and digestive enzymes. I used a combo of liquid drops and gel capsules to get my levels up, and now maintain with just the K2 and D3. But it always scares me a little when I hear about people doing mega doses of D3 WITHOUT K2...just a reaction. I know that functional medicine doctors are on board with this understanding, but conventional medicine is a bit behind.

And please remember, Keith, that serum blood tests will only reflect the levels circulating in her bloodstream, which the body works really hard to keep in balance. She may need specialized tests to figure out which nutrients she needs most. Also, there may have been some essential oils included in the "soak" formula that support her metabolic needs that could be added in other formulas, as well, generally topically when needed. Likely they could be added to a magnesium oil formula. I've saved recommendations down from other folks as to recommended brands and deals, etc., if those are needed.

Bonny132

Nothing to do with supplements, but I do have friends with arthritis who all seem to do better following a GF diet and one has moved to Spain simply for the weather, as she feels better in the dryer heat. So I just wanted to say: Encourage the young lady to spend time outdoors when the sun pops out. I wish your grand daughter all the best.

codename_steve

@KnitOrMiss What brand of K2 do you use? I've been taking magnesium and a D3 supplement for a few weeks, but because of this thread have started looking into the K2 also. Do you have any suggestions?

KnitOrMiss

codename_steve wrote: »

@KnitOrMiss What brand of K2 do you use? I've been taking magnesium and a D3 supplement for a few weeks, but because of this thread have started looking into the K2 also. Do you have any suggestions?

@codename_steve I personally use Life Extension's Super K Plus, but I have heard that the Jarrow Brand K2 (M7 only) is great, too. I like the LE brand because it as K1 and K2 (M4 and M7) forms... Cheapest way to get it is through "Amazon Pantry" if you have that available to you. It's about 1/3 of the cost of even the cheapest amazon price that way.

hazel1505

what is GF diet? and what is K2? I do know you need to take D3 to get calcium to absorb.

RalfLott

hazel1505 wrote: »

what is GF diet? and what is K2? I do know you need to take D3 to get calcium to absorb.

GF = Gluten free
K2 = Vitamin K2