Are muscle gain and fat loss at the same time impossible
TravellerRay
Posts: 94 Member
I am the stage where I now question everything. So in a supplement store last week I was told that I needed to eat more carbs to fuel a strength session and gain muscle. I explained that I was on LCHF and did not want more carbs. I was told that I couldn't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, which I had also read somewhere.
The problem then is that we are told that we need to build more muscles to boost metabolism and burn fat. Hence, back to confusion.
To contradict this I am lifting heavier weights and increasing the number of situps at the same time as losing weight. So maybe I can't look like a body builder next week, but that wasn't the goal. I wanted a lean body with good muscle definition. And big arms
The problem then is that we are told that we need to build more muscles to boost metabolism and burn fat. Hence, back to confusion.
To contradict this I am lifting heavier weights and increasing the number of situps at the same time as losing weight. So maybe I can't look like a body builder next week, but that wasn't the goal. I wanted a lean body with good muscle definition. And big arms
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It is possible, but not easy. That's true regardless of whether eating carbs or not. It's called "re-composition" or "recomp" and it involves both proper workouts and the right amounts (and potentially types - i.e. which amino acids are included) of protein with proper timing.
You say you want good muscle definition... the best thing to do for that is to lose excess fat. Even if you only are able to preserve muscle rather than gain muscle, you will have more definition if you lose the fat covering muscles.4 -
Check out the Ketogains group on Facebook or Reddit. You can definitely lose fat and gain muscle at the same time. Especially if you're new to lifting.
From this link to Ketogains FAQ's
https://www.reddit.com/r/ketogains/wiki/index
"Mythbusting / Troubleshooting
Everyone tells me I need carbs to build muscle and muscle cannot be build on keto.
Busted. It is entirely possible to build lean mass on keto. Everyone who tells you this, does not really know how muscle building works.
The basics to build muscle, are (in a very simplified way):
Eating enough protein (protein is the building block of muscle tissue) - as per the FAQ, between 0.8 up 1.2g per lean pound (more is not necessarily better).
Eating at a caloric surplus - to build muscle, you need to eat above your TDEE. You can't build from sweat alone. The excess calories can come from protein, carbs or fat, (preferably, from the latter two, as protein is better used for repair and growth). If you are following a ketogenic diet, your surplus of calories comes from fats.
Strength training that stimulates the muscle with progressive overload and causes muscle hypertrophy .
Rest.
Carbs are good for muscle building because they promote insulin release, which is an anabolic hormone and because they replenish glycogen. But this does not mean that you can't build muscle nor replenish glycogen on keto. A theory is that a ketogenic diet can be very good for lean mass growth (improved body composition, less body fat gain) while a traditional high carb diet for total weight gain (meaning you could also gain a little more fat):
The effects of ketogenic dieting on skeletal muscle and fat mass - Jacob T Rauch, Jeremy E Silva, Ryan P Lowery, Sean A McCleary, Kevin A Shields, Jacob A Ormes, Matthew H Sharp, Steven I Weiner, John I Georges, Jeff S Volek, Dominic P D’agostino, Jacob M Wilson.
Background
This is the first study ever to research very low carbohydrate ketogenic dieting (VLCKD) relative to a traditional high carbohydrate diet in resistance trained athletes.
Methods
Twenty-six college aged resistance trained men volunteered to participate in this study and were divided into VLCKD (5 % CHO, 75 % Fat, 20 % Pro) or a traditional western diet (55 % CHO, 25 % fat, 20 % pro). All subjects participated in a periodized resistance-training program 3x per week. Body fat and lean mass were determined via dual xray absorptiometry (DXA), while muscle mass was determined via ultrasonography analysis of the quadriceps. All measures were taken at week 0 and 11.
Results
Lean body mass increased to a greater extent in the VLCKD (4.3 ± 1.7 kgs ) as compared to the traditional group (2.2 kg ± 1.7).
Ultrasound determined muscle mass increased to a greater extent in the VLCKD group (0.4 ± 0.25 cm) as compared to the traditional western group (0.19 ± 0.26 cm). Finally fat mass decreased to a greater extent in the VLCKD group (-2.2 kg ± 1.2 kg) as compared to the traditional group (- 1.5 ± 1.6 kg).
Conclusions
These results indicate that VLCKD may have more favorable changes in LBM, muscle mass, and body fatness as compared to a traditional western diet in resistance trained males.
Full paper: The effects of ketogenic dieting on skeletal muscle and fat mass
Note by Menno Henselmans: From what I gathered during Jacob Wilson’s presentation when we were both lecturing for the Norwegian Academy for Personal Training, this study included a carb-up at the end. This probably explains why lean mass rose so much in the ketogenic diet group, i.e. it’s glycogen and water, not muscle mass, though before the carb-up the ketogenic diet group still had better muscle growth and fat loss."4 -
Thanks for that. I really appreciate the time spent on those replies. So if I understand this, I can eat more on a lifting day, particularly if I eat more protein. And I can balance this by doing my intermittent fasting on other days. And keep to the LCHF woe.1
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TravellerRay wrote: »Thanks for that. I really appreciate the time spent on those replies. So if I understand this, I can eat more on a lifting day, particularly if I eat more protein. And I can balance this by doing my intermittent fasting on other days. And keep to the LCHF woe.
The way I understand it, you definitely want to eat more on lifting days if building muscle is the goal.0 -
Perfect timing on this. I was listening to some old Ketovangelist podcasts, and #29 is an interview with Dustin Schaffer who has his degree in exercise science. Part of the interview is about debunking this and the work he does with athletes and others to do exactly this.1
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On a personal note, I was doing low carb, not keto (because I didn't know about it) while losing weight. I have been keto for maintenance since early August last year. In the first 2 1/2 months of keto, I dropped 10 lbs, regained about 5 of it, but my BF% went from 19 to 14.
The drop was really fast and not intentional. I just couldn't help losing when I dropped the carbs that low. Putting the 5 (and eventually the other 5) back on was intentional.
Point being, the difference between 185 with 19% BF and 180 with 14% is a negative 10 lbs of fat and an increase in LBM (muscle) of 5 lbs. That is proof enough for me since I got to see it first hand.2 -
Wasn't even looking for info on this and stumbled across this article for you.
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/gain-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/1 -
Some good and useful replies above.
OP: The guy in the supplement store wasn't giving you free and impartial advice. He was giving you advice that would lead you to purchase supplements. It's not just him, many, articles about building muscles are trying to sell you supplements either subtly or overtly.
Building muscle while simultaneously losing body fat is possible and is know as body recomposition. In a well trained athlete it is tricky and slower then doing one or the other. That's why bodybuilders periodize bulking and cutting as they are trying to get as big as possible as quickly as possible.
From your original post I don't think you've been lifting for several years. If this is the case and you are fairly new to it you are in the "newbie" gains phase. For the first year or two of lifting you can build muscle and increase strength relatively easily and linearly just by being consistent and adding weight.
It's usually agreed that in the newbie phase it's relatively easier to body recomp than it would be for someone already carrying a significant amount of extra muscle.
Keep lifting and keep eating at a deficit and you'll end up with a stronger, leaner, healthier and better looking body than you started with. As you said in your original post you don't want to look like a bodybuilder so you don't need to eat like one.3 -
All I can say is wow. So much to learn. So many many myths to unlearn and some great people in this community. I feel like I am back in school, but it's all good. I so want to know how this stuff works. Many thanks1
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thanks for the thread, very timely for me as i'm looking to start weightlifting.1 -
Yes, it may have been the guy in the supplement store trying to sell stuff. If you are going to try anything at all for supplements, it should be BCAA's. Back when I was doing strength training on a low carb diet, BCAA's made a big difference. They were explained in a webinar I was watching last night as one of the top 3 suggestions for keto athletes (send me a PM if you want a link to the recording... I think I can get that to you). I still take them occasionally even now that I've transitioned to endurance cardio (running and trail running) as a primary exercise.1
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The argument was never that one can't build muscle on a keto style diet; it was that it's suboptimal for just about anyone of a lean body composition, with a normally functioning metabolism.
For my own n=1, I ran a keto bulk, tore through my noob gains, then started to get really fat, really fast on 2800 kcal/day, gaining 2.5 lbs./week on average. Cut back down to 14%, then ran a bulk on 30/30/40 p/f/c, gained 0.6-1 lbs./week on 3600-4200, and saw far greater strength and LMM increases.
Some may do perfectly fine on keto, but I found that it gave very suboptimal results, compared to a more balanced approach.0
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