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Hungry after I eat....

esjones12
esjones12 Posts: 1,363 Member
edited March 2017 in Social Groups
Just looking for some suggestions. I am a fan of Abel James and Dave Aspry. My diet is a cyclical ketosis/whole foods/organic type thing. This is my typical day: 8am bulletproof tea (with butter and Brain Octane), 12pm big salad with lots of veggies and a 4oz protein serving and some sort of healthy fat (avocado, grass-fed cheese, nuts, etc), 3:30pm protein shake (Boku protein and super greens with more Brain Octane), I will usually workout for 1-1.5 hours and then eat dinner by 7pm which is a lot of cooked veggies and a 4oz protein serving. I'll thrown in a snack of nuts and cucumber or bone broth on high intensity training days.

When I follow this model the scale and inches drop and I feel great. My biggest struggle has always been overeating. When I'm bored/anxious/tired/etc....my body starts craving food. So I've been following the above for a bit now and it's great, I'm rarely hungry. That is until I eat. I'll all but forget it's lunch time, or won't feel hungry for dinner....and once I eat I get super hungry. And then I have to fight the urge to dig through my fridge for more food. If I stick to my guns and just chug some water it usually passes and I'm fine until my next meal. But sharing my fridge and cabinets with my family who eat nothing but processed junk food (and a job that throws sugar food at us all the time) - it becomes very easy for me to slip up.

Thoughts? Anyone else experience this? I think I'm going to try toying with macros first - anyone have a suggestion?

Replies

  • tcunbeliever
    tcunbeliever Posts: 8,219 Member
    I have a hard time avoiding the junk food when I have to look at it in the cabinets and I'm feeling munchy...so, I have a "bad food" cabinet where all the junk food is relegated to and I just don't open that cabinet when I'm hunting for snacks...it's totally a mental/visual trick, but it works for me...and the whole family knows where to put the junk and woe to anyone who puts that crap in the wrong cabinet!!!
  • kpk54
    kpk54 Posts: 4,474 Member
    Prior to starting keto (and I was already a year into maintenance) I was ALWAYS hungry. It wasn't a "mental-craving" type hunger. It was a true physiological hunger. Eating more fat helped me. I have been an MCT user. While it has value, I favor more "food like" fat even if just an ounce or two of cream cheese.

    Try eating bigger and fewer meals rather than such a frequent feeding schedule? May help with minimizing the BG/insulin aspect.

    Also I've gone the route of BPC and MCT Oil and am not a fan for myself. While it can keep me full and to this day about 50% of my mornings are coffee with 1/2 and 1/2 only (not BPC) and I find it satisfactory regarding satiation, eggs or other things that I consider more "food like" are needed/favored by me on the other days. Full fat yogurt and berries and/or flaxseed meal all fattened up with some MCT Oil (because it is fat, it mixes well, I have some and it is tasteless) is a go to if not eggs or dinner leftovers.

    I see in your profile you have already lost about 60 pound? Kudos on that. I highly recommend the books "Always Hungry" by David Perlmutter and "The Hungry Brain" by Stephan Guyenet. I favor Guyenet's book the most (perhaps because it was most recently read). Both Perlmutter and Guyenet have videos on youtube dealing with physiological hunger. It is real. Been there. Check out some of the videos. They may provide additional tips for YOU to minimize the biological hunger that does exist.

    Just an FYI, Guyenet favors protein and fiber for satiation.

  • esjones12
    esjones12 Posts: 1,363 Member
    Not diabetic, pre-diabetic, or insulin resistant. I like your suggestions and have feedback @KnitOrMiss

    Responses in order:
    -not insulin resistant
    -my meals are pretty well balanced and the super greens I take contain a ton of nutrients.
    -another level of adaptation? where can I find more information about that?
    -if anything I eat too much pink salt lol.
    -I definitely can drink more and should make it a point. I have an office job though so sitting (and standing, yay for a standup desk!) around all day just makes it easy to not drink much.
    -yeah, if I can get out of the kitchen and lost into something else then the desire to eat quickly fades and I almost miss my next meal without realizing it.
    -that's interesting.....would love to know more about that too. I am waiting for some Probiotics from Mark Sisson to arrive to start changing up my gut flora and stuffs. Maybe that will have a good impact?
    -This could also be a key. Long story short I turned to keto last year in the midst of a beyond crappy year. A long list of health issues (tongue cyst and back issues) and the inability to workout caused bad binging and weight gain. I've been improving more and more but I probably haven't gone more than 3 weeks without a solid bad-sugar intake in a long time. So perhaps reaching more into the 4-6 week range of no-sugary junk food would open up the doors to less post-meal cravings?

    KnitOrMiss wrote: »
    @esjones12 - Are you diabetic, pre-diabetic, or insulin resistant?

    My experiences with this generally relate to:
    • insulin resistance create an odd feedback loop of hunger without satisfaction.
    • a missing nutritional component (some particular nutrient(s) you're missing in that meal - your body will keep telling you that you're hungry generally until you get that/those nutrient(s). Sometimes just mixing up my foods or swapping things otu can help.
    • time/hitting another level of adaption - it changes up everything you thought you knew
    • too low sodium - throwing off electrolytes throws everything off for me
    • thirst - I still sometimes struggle to know the difference between thirst and true hunger
    • dealing with the emotional/bored/stress component separately...isn't always enough (articles available if interested)...but if this truly is the case, getting deeply distracted in a passionate pursuit or simply getting busy or moving (true need, not busy work) can tell you if it is related to this.
    • candida or bacterial die-off - this can happen at any point in the process
    • sugar-addiction issues, particularly as relates to bad "stress management"

    My suggestion would be research these (in no particular) and see if any of them seem to fit your situation. This is just my own personal experience, with a dash or suggestions from my medical team to get to the bottom of issues.

  • esjones12
    esjones12 Posts: 1,363 Member
    tcunbeliever wrote: »
    I have a hard time avoiding the junk food when I have to look at it in the cabinets and I'm feeling munchy...so, I have a "bad food" cabinet where all the junk food is relegated to and I just don't open that cabinet when I'm hunting for snacks...it's totally a mental/visual trick, but it works for me...and the whole family knows where to put the junk and woe to anyone who puts that crap in the wrong cabinet!!!

    Haha, that is great! I am hoping to move out of my parents house by the end of this year.....and the thing I am most excited about is having my own fridge and cabinets! I'm not one to buy junk food - but when it's free and in front of my face almost all day ever day it gets hard to not have a small "treat" here or there (which quickly snowballs to more than just here or there).
  • esjones12
    esjones12 Posts: 1,363 Member
    kpk54 wrote: »
    Prior to starting keto (and I was already a year into maintenance) I was ALWAYS hungry. It wasn't a "mental-craving" type hunger. It was a true physiological hunger. Eating more fat helped me. I have been an MCT user. While it has value, I favor more "food like" fat even if just an ounce or two of cream cheese.

    Try eating bigger and fewer meals rather than such a frequent feeding schedule? May help with minimizing the BG/insulin aspect.

    Also I've gone the route of BPC and MCT Oil and am not a fan for myself. While it can keep me full and to this day about 50% of my mornings are coffee with 1/2 and 1/2 only (not BPC) and I find it satisfactory regarding satiation, eggs or other things that I consider more "food like" are needed/favored by me on the other days. Full fat yogurt and berries and/or flaxseed meal all fattened up with some MCT Oil (because it is fat, it mixes well, I have some and it is tasteless) is a go to if not eggs or dinner leftovers.

    I see in your profile you have already lost about 60 pound? Kudos on that. I highly recommend the books "Always Hungry" by David Perlmutter and "The Hungry Brain" by Stephan Guyenet. I favor Guyenet's book the most (perhaps because it was most recently read). Both Perlmutter and Guyenet have videos on youtube dealing with physiological hunger. It is real. Been there. Check out some of the videos. They may provide additional tips for YOU to minimize the biological hunger that does exist.

    Just an FYI, Guyenet favors protein and fiber for satiation.

    Yeah, I think figuring out if this is a psychological or physiological type of hunger is a key.

    I've actually had people tell me I need to eat more meals lol. I have BF tea, salad, protein shake, dinner. I have no issues with hunger and the bulletproof tea. If I distract myself after dinner and let the cravings pass, I easily go from 7pm-12pm without any issue.

    Thanks for the kudos. I've been losing weight and getting fit since July 2012. I've tried various ways of eating over those almost 5 years. From general calorie counting to a strict body building diet and now keto. My boyfriend has exposed me to all the great information about how high fat is so much healthier for you. So this is definitely the way I want to pursue. I'll definitely look up those two names, they sound familiar. Wouldn't be surprised if I have heard them on a podcast. Thanks!
  • mmultanen
    mmultanen Posts: 1,029 Member
    I've experienced this when I've fasted but not as a regular course of business. It's part of the reason I don't fast other than IF (16:8 or 18:6). It just doesn't work well for me.

  • KnitOrMiss
    KnitOrMiss Posts: 10,103 Member
    @tcunbeliever and @esjones12 - my guy has a "crap" shelf in the fridge, in the pantry, and has a basket beside his side of the couch. Reminding myself that if I eat those things, I'm stealing his food, etc., really helps me get in the mindset of not eating those things. Most of the time I forget they are there.

    Since you take super greens and get lots of nutrients, have you checked to make sure you aren't getting too much of one thing? For example, too much B12, even in natural forms, can cause your other B vitamins to slowly deplete. Excess copper can cause copper and zinc to get out of balance. Too much potassium might cause you to dump magnesium - and so on and so forth. Also, just because you are taking in the nutrients doesn't guarantee that your body is able to break them down to absorb them...so, something to consider there.

    As far as adaption - I'm referring to fat adaption. The body take time to completely switch over bodily systems to run primarily off of ketones. Generally, in the beginning, day 2, 4, 7, 14, 21, 28, and then at any random interval over the next forever can happen. You might have just lost enough percentage of fat that your metabolism switches a gear. You might have just created your ## mitochondria for ketone metabolism, making your body more effective at burning ketones. You might have had a great workout burn that bumped or lowered your metabolism. You might have eaten more or less calories. You might have just hit a deeper level of efficacy. Your electrolytes are a crazy delicate balance. Hunger is not linear. Deficits should be looked at on a 7-14 day average. You will ALWAYS have hungrier and less hungry days. As long as your deficit is in range on an average, you should follow TRUE hunger. For me, that means if I want something specific, I'll negotiate with myself. Say I want sausage. If my brain tells me sure, it'll take eggs or a salad, I know that's likely hunger. If it screams at me that no, it wants sausage...and strawberries, I know it might be a nutrient factor, it might be a sugar craving, or I might be low on fat or sodium, etc.

    My personal way to ballpark thirst is to try drinking and wait a little. This helps me decide if I'm really hungry or not. I just try to keep it reasonable, because drinking a lot of water before, during, or right after a meal can dilute stomach acids and cause digestive distress - especially with raw greens and such.

    Re: candida/bacteria die-off - just google. There are tons of reliable resources out there. Know that probiotics can actually accelerate this process - and make you feel worse short term. Start slowly with probiotics and build up to full doses. And long term, this would absolutely help if this is part of the problem.

    And regarding not going more than 3 weeks without a high sugar intake, I can almost guarantee that this ^^ is a factor. Die-off creates that "OMG I can't handle this anymore, I must have all the sugar/starches RIGHT NOW" reaction. It is a panic/compulsion that's nearly unavoidable if you don't take steps to help you through. This is one of my favorite articles: carbsyndrome.com/is-your-brain-two-quarts-low/

    But, if you do have that much of an issue with sugar, I would argue that you're likely at least somewhat less insulin sensitive that you would like to be or is optimal. Some people have to cut it out completely. For me, that first day or two are the hardest. Then again at 3-4 weeks, 6 weeks, 8 weeks, and so on. Each step down is a potential trigger.

    Also, you mention working out/not being able to workout. If you have gotten back to being able to workout, remember that anything over 20-30 minutes of intense workout or 45-60 minutes of lighter workouts create a hunger disproportionate to the calories burned...plus if you haven't gone 12 weeks without major sugar incidents, you might not have created as many ketone based mitochondria to support whatever your activity levels are - even if that's just "functioning."

    Good luck figuring it out!
  • KnitOrMiss
    KnitOrMiss Posts: 10,103 Member
    mmultanen wrote: »
    I've experienced this when I've fasted but not as a regular course of business. It's part of the reason I don't fast other than IF (16:8 or 18:6). It just doesn't work well for me.

    I also agree SO much with @mmultanen - I started out with IF (modified) 4 times a week, then 3 times the next week, then 2 the week after, and then I was just done. If this doesn't occur naturally (like I forget a meal or get busy working, etc.), I cannot force it. That very quickly devolves into disordered eating for me, and that's a path I'd rather not rediscover.
  • esjones12
    esjones12 Posts: 1,363 Member
    @KnitOrMiss - that definitely sounds like a lot of good stuff to be looking into! I think exploring some of these options and pushing hard to avoid sugar binges for another few weeks might help resolve some of this.

    My training has been ramping up and I've entered my high intensity, low volume phase to help peak for my upcoming race season. So my body probably is just having a heck of a time sorting out this keto, sugar binge, keto, sugar binge + exercise intensity ramping up thing.

    It's been a bumpy road (emotionally and physically) the past few months since I was able to sort out my back issues and finally start actual training again. It's becoming smoother though, so I have noticed things getting better with the sugar issue.

    Thanks so much for your insight!
  • cstehansen
    cstehansen Posts: 1,984 Member
    Since you mentioned Abel James, I heard an interview with him from about a year ago. He mentioned frequently not eating breakfast. Basically he regularly does IF.

    Personally I used to always be hungry prior to this WOE. I sort of fell into IF.

    I have found the same thing where eating can make me hungrier. It was worse in my high carb days which makes me think it is an insulin response since insulin is a hormone that makes your brain think you are hungry even if your belly is full. Protein can raise insulin. Some amino acids do this more than others.

    That said, try raising fat a little bit in your meal as it is more satiating and has almost no insulin response.
  • esjones12
    esjones12 Posts: 1,363 Member
    cstehansen wrote: »
    Since you mentioned Abel James, I heard an interview with him from about a year ago. He mentioned frequently not eating breakfast. Basically he regularly does IF.

    Personally I used to always be hungry prior to this WOE. I sort of fell into IF.

    I have found the same thing where eating can make me hungrier. It was worse in my high carb days which makes me think it is an insulin response since insulin is a hormone that makes your brain think you are hungry even if your belly is full. Protein can raise insulin. Some amino acids do this more than others.

    That said, try raising fat a little bit in your meal as it is more satiating and has almost no insulin response.

    I do 17:7 every day. The bulletproof tea is widely accepted as a simple extension of the fast instead of "breaking" fast. I definitely think I'm going to try increasing fat first. It just brings back memories of CICO for me and I get nervous about consuming too many calories and still seeing the scale drop. I've got quite a bit of weight to drop to get to my ideal racing weight.
  • KnitOrMiss
    KnitOrMiss Posts: 10,103 Member
    @esjones12 - Often during fat adaption on keto, especially during a training reboot or increase, you actually need to reduce workouts until about the 8-12 week point. You'll have a dip in performance while your mitochondria change over, but long term performance will increase. There's not really a point in busting your tail to improve the sugar-burning mitochondria when you're wanting to focus on using the ketone-burning mitochondria - and actually preventing the full adaption to using the ketone mitochondria by the nature of your workouts, is there? Not completely black and white, as the best athletes have dual mitochondria functioning at optimal, if I remember right, but if your goals are long term performance and health, you might need to reduce workouts now to allow you to fully adapt before pushing through on performance gains and increases...
  • esjones12
    esjones12 Posts: 1,363 Member
    KnitOrMiss wrote: »
    @esjones12 - Often during fat adaption on keto, especially during a training reboot or increase, you actually need to reduce workouts until about the 8-12 week point. You'll have a dip in performance while your mitochondria change over, but long term performance will increase. There's not really a point in busting your tail to improve the sugar-burning mitochondria when you're wanting to focus on using the ketone-burning mitochondria - and actually preventing the full adaption to using the ketone mitochondria by the nature of your workouts, is there? Not completely black and white, as the best athletes have dual mitochondria functioning at optimal, if I remember right, but if your goals are long term performance and health, you might need to reduce workouts now to allow you to fully adapt before pushing through on performance gains and increases...

    I am technically shooting for cyclical ketosis for metabolic flexibility (ability to burn fat or carbs). This is key in performing optimally and at the top level in my selected athletic pursuits. I do believe the use of Brain Octane is key here because it helps increase the ketone-burning mitochondria.
  • ladipoet
    ladipoet Posts: 4,180 Member
    esjones12 wrote: »
    -if anything I eat too much pink salt lol.

    Not possible. lol ;)
  • DietPrada
    DietPrada Posts: 1,171 Member
    I used to have this problem when I ate carbs. I still have the same problem if I let my carbs creep up (from 20 to 40 - 50). If I stick to my routine I'm fine.

    I have a coffee in the morning with butter and cream, I don't do MCT or coconut oil anymore, it was too greasy and I never saw a benefit to it.
    Lunch is usually about 300 cals. I make up 5 days worth on a Sunday. This week is smoked chicken, rocket, feta, cucumber, boiled egg and red onion with a blue cheese dressing.
    Dinner is about 400 cals, some meat and some stirfried mushroom/zucchini/capsicum or similar. That leaves me roughly 400 cals for after.
    Normally a coffee with butter and a tin of oysters, or some brie, or a protein bar or some lite jelly with blueberries and whipped cream.

    I find I do better during the day and have calories left in the evening when I need them. My partner is also a major snacker, all the junk food you can imagine. He has a shelf in the pantry. I have the vege drawer in the fridge filled with keto snacks. It works for us.

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