Long Time Ketoers, 2 years+

eggdev

Are there any here?

My question is centered around Keto not providing enough carbs for the production of mucus which is vital to our eyes, nasal and lining of the organs.

This came from Dr. Jaminet from the Perfect Health Diet. He's a scientist and I do respect his opinion as they seem to be backed by science, but I am mentally set on doing keto for the long-term. He mentioned an inevitable sign will be dry eyes and in some cases dry throat.

Any thoughts and experiences from long time ketoers would be appreciated.

KnitOrMiss

I don't know that it is inevitable. I know someone in our related group that has struggles in this area. @baconslave

Personally, I went about 18 months on keto before having to stop for a while, and am working my way back to a level field again, but it was due to me not properly supporting my thyroid function, not the diet itself. I didn't have any issues with mucus or eyes, etc., and I've had Lasik surgery without dry eye complications to date, so I imagine this one would have surfaced for me by now...

There are people who've been on ketogenic diets for 30+ years. I think this has more to do with potential nutrient deficiencies that carbs themselves. I know that for my own needs, I've had to add in a low dose A vitamin supplement when I don't eat enough organ meats....A is crucial to this process...

EDITED TO ADD: Vitamin A is one you can experience toxicity with, so be very careful if you choose to supplement it. You're better off getting it through reasonable portions of organ meats or a heavier carnivore type diet, if you're concerned about it. @eggdev

KnitOrMiss

@FIT_Goat - Do you have any insight here? I know you've been Keto/Carnivore for a lot longer than I have...

FIT_Goat

I can't imagine this being a problem, even for zero-carb. Your body can make all the carbs it sees the need to make. The Bear went over 50 years, no complaints in these areas that I know of. I get dry eyes and mucus issues when I cheat, not when I stick with things.

There is a weight lifter (whose name escapes me) that's been keto for 12+ years and I have never heard of this.

Personally, this is one bridge I would worry about only when I crossed it. I don't think it actually exists, and I certainly wouldn't stay off the road for fear that it might be in the distance.

baconslave

I was keto for 1.5 years but had to stop due to the development of Sjogren's Syndrome symptoms (dry mouth, dry sinuses, severe dry eye, and chronic fatigue). I can't blame keto, as my father developed the same symptoms during his adult years, and he's lower than the SAD for carbs but not low-carb.

My symptoms are worse on keto, which is why I left and moved up to regular low-carb. But I still have pretty evil symptoms. I'm about to embark on a paleo-like diet to look for food sensitivities, and if I get no success, go to full AIP.

eggdev

baconslave wrote: »

I was keto for 1.5 years but had to stop due to the development of Sjogren's Syndrome symptoms (dry mouth, dry sinuses, severe dry eye, and chronic fatigue). I can't blame keto, as my father developed the same symptoms during his adult years, and he's lower than the SAD for carbs but not low-carb.

My symptoms are worse on keto, which is why I left and moved up to regular low-carb. But I still have pretty evil symptoms. I'm about to embark on a paleo-like diet to look for food sensitivities, and if I get no success, go to full AIP.

Thanks.
Yeah, it affects some people more than others. And even if we don't experience the dry eyes and sinuses like you the mucus lining of our organs may still be suffering. So it may be a good thing that you have a direct symptom like that.

eggdev

KnitOrMiss wrote: »

I don't know that it is inevitable. I know someone in our related group that has struggles in this area. @baconslave

Personally, I went about 18 months on keto before having to stop for a while, and am working my way back to a level field again, but it was due to me not properly supporting my thyroid function, not the diet itself. I didn't have any issues with mucus or eyes, etc., and I've had Lasik surgery without dry eye complications to date, so I imagine this one would have surfaced for me by now...

There are people who've been on ketogenic diets for 30+ years. I think this has more to do with potential nutrient deficiencies that carbs themselves. I know that for my own needs, I've had to add in a low dose A vitamin supplement when I don't eat enough organ meats....A is crucial to this process...

EDITED TO ADD: Vitamin A is one you can experience toxicity with, so be very careful if you choose to supplement it. You're better off getting it through reasonable portions of organ meats or a heavier carnivore type diet, if you're concerned about it. @eggdev

Thanks KnitOrMiss,
By inevitable he's meaning that it will happen and you can't avoid it. Some people feel the symptoms more than like dry eyes but internally as well it may have an affect.

eggdev

FIT_Goat wrote: »

I can't imagine this being a problem, even for zero-carb. Your body can make all the carbs it sees the need to make. The Bear went over 50 years, no complaints in these areas that I know of. I get dry eyes and mucus issues when I cheat, not when I stick with things.

There is a weight lifter (whose name escapes me) that's been keto for 12+ years and I have never heard of this.

Personally, this is one bridge I would worry about only when I crossed it. I don't think it actually exists, and I certainly wouldn't stay off the road for fear that it might be in the distance.

Yeah, I'm gonna stick with it. But I know internally things may be going on that we don't feel. I just wanted to hear from some people with the experience.

You're right that the body can create its own glucose but that's a process that it really prioritizes and the brain comes first. Mucus is way down the line on the list. Here's a link to some of the info:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2015/06/disease-begins-in-the-mucus/

Dr. Jaminet recommends 30% carbs: saying that is the lowest you can go and avoid some of the issues.

eggdev

Here's another one worth reading:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/11/dangers-of-zero-carb-diets-ii-mucus-deficiency-and-gastrointestinal-cancers/

shadus

I'll note: He's promoting his own diet. I don't believe anything he's saying should be taken at face value, I would be interested in seeing the specific scientific studies that back up his claims, the sources he cites back up small bits of information he's saying but not his over all assertions in any way shape or form (for example the 'diseases begins in the mucus' article.) Actually look at the places he uses his citations and what he's backing up and what he asserting without backing up. The vast majority of what he's saying isn't backed up. In the second article he cites someone running off at the mouth on an internet post reply, lol... who cites an article who's conclusion is actually positive, not negative. He's also conflating ketosis with starvation... yeah, this reads more like your average sales piece than an actual doctor backing up his information with scientific facts. I think he does cite adequate there and in other places that it's important to make sure you're NOT getting excessively shorted in various nutrients including a, d, and c. I just don't trust his conclusions and his sources aren't reaching the same conclusions he's reaching.

tl;dr - he's making a LOT of assertions he's not backing up, it's supposition on his part at best. More research needs done (I'm not saying his assertions are wrong entirely, just that he's not backing them up, and if there is no scientific evidence supporting his suppositions and he wishes to prove them, more research needs done.)

sing809

I ran across that article last night when I did a search trying to figure out if my dry eyes were related to keto. I couldn't tell how reputable the author was, and I couldn't find similar information from other sources. I've been in ketosis for almost 7 weeks, and the last couple weeks I've been suffering from very dry eyes that I suspect are related. I am a little worried that it might not be a good idea to stay on this long term since I am experiencing symptoms. At the same time, my digestion and stomach feel so much better on keto. I am thinking perhaps I should try carb refeeds every couple weeks and see if that will be enough to stop the eye issues. It is severe enough that it even seems to affect my vision at times. Any advice, or other people out there experiencing something similar?

KnitOrMiss

sing809 wrote: »

I ran across that article last night when I did a search trying to figure out if my dry eyes were related to keto. I couldn't tell how reputable the author was, and I couldn't find similar information from other sources. I've been in ketosis for almost 7 weeks, and the last couple weeks I've been suffering from very dry eyes that I suspect are related. I am a little worried that it might not be a good idea to stay on this long term since I am experiencing symptoms. At the same time, my digestion and stomach feel so much better on keto. I am thinking perhaps I should try carb refeeds every couple weeks and see if that will be enough to stop the eye issues. It is severe enough that it even seems to affect my vision at times. Any advice, or other people out there experiencing something similar?

@sing809 - Are you positive your electrolytes are fully imbalance? That is the most common cause of drying tissues. The majority of Keto-ers need to supplement 5000 mg of sodium daily MINIMUM to replace what is being dumped. Also, make sure that you are getting plenty of Vitamin A rich foods...

If you do decide to do carb refeeds, avoid dirty refeeds. Avoid grains, gluten, and sugars. Just increase to more starchy veggies and such. Grains/gluten, soy, dairy, and sugars can exacerbate existing issues with drying skin, organs, and such. Additionally, it can take 6 months or so to "level out" from going on a ketogenic diet, particularly if you had underlying issues of which you were not aware previously.

Good luck.

ChoiceNotChance

I have no scientific evidence of anything, but, that said- I have been eating a Ketogenic diet for several years and the only time I have trouble with dry eyes, etc. is during allergy season, and that has always been an issue for me.