Intermittent LCHF
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blambo61
Posts: 4,372 Member
There are various reasons to go LCHF: pain management, diabetes, weight loss, etc. For those mostly interest in just weight loss, what do you think about this type of a program.
Eat breakfasts and lunches with very little to zero carbs (if those meals are eaten). But allow moderate carbs for dinner.
This would help immensely with preventing the blood sugar roller coaster and hunger issues that carb eaters get from eating carbs during the day but would also make it much easier for those that have a difficult time doing full-time LCHF. I think that this could be a good protocol for those just trying to lose weight and should be feasible for just about anyone not diabetic or has bad reactions to carbs. It would open up a whole lot more of the world to doing some form of LCHF that otherwise would not stick with it full-time for long.
I'm kind of doing this with a 20:4 IF diet (my 20-hrs are zero carb obviously) but at dinner I will allow whole grains, fruit, and starch vegetables in moderation. I may even sometimes allow a small refined sugar treat. I haven't been practicing this much but am starting.
Eat breakfasts and lunches with very little to zero carbs (if those meals are eaten). But allow moderate carbs for dinner.
This would help immensely with preventing the blood sugar roller coaster and hunger issues that carb eaters get from eating carbs during the day but would also make it much easier for those that have a difficult time doing full-time LCHF. I think that this could be a good protocol for those just trying to lose weight and should be feasible for just about anyone not diabetic or has bad reactions to carbs. It would open up a whole lot more of the world to doing some form of LCHF that otherwise would not stick with it full-time for long.
I'm kind of doing this with a 20:4 IF diet (my 20-hrs are zero carb obviously) but at dinner I will allow whole grains, fruit, and starch vegetables in moderation. I may even sometimes allow a small refined sugar treat. I haven't been practicing this much but am starting.
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I'm not sure nondiabetics are ever on a blood sugar roller coaster the way we T2Ds are (if we're not careful), but for anyone who's on such a ride, I wouldn't think moderate carbs, fruits & grains at any time sounds like a good idea.
But for others, there are such enormous individual variations in tolerances, preferences, etc. that it might be a good approach for some people at some points in their lives.2 -
I may not be talking about the same "roller-coaster" your talking about. I'm not T2D but if I eat carbs early in the day, my "roller-coaster" is I get an insulin spike, then I get low blood sugar, then I get real hungry, repeat. Feel like crap at the end of the day. If I eat carbs at the end of the day, I don't get that cause I'm going to sleep. If I go LC, I find it very difficult to stick with so for me, I think this could be the best of both worlds.0
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...if I eat carbs early in the day, my "roller-coaster" is I get an insulin spike, then I get low blood sugar, then I get real hungry, repeat. Feel like crap at the end of the day. If I eat carbs at the end of the day, I don't get that cause I'm going to sleep. If I go LC, I find it very difficult to stick with so for me, I think this could be the best of both worlds.
It seems to me you've already found something that works for you and that's what really counts because no one knows your body and how it responds to various and different kinds of foods better than you do so stick with it. There is no "ONE CORRECT WAY ONLY" to do LCHF or Keto, etc.3 -
If you're metabolically healthy that may work just fine for you. Just have to try it and see.
But if you're getting low blood sugar (what does it test at?) that's a huge clue that you're not so metabolically healthy. It suggests hyperinsulinemia for sure. The only way to go low is too much insulin...
I personally will never eat grains again no matter what.3 -
I may not be talking about the same "roller-coaster" your talking about. I'm not T2D but if I eat carbs early in the day, my "roller-coaster" is I get an insulin spike, then I get low blood sugar, then I get real hungry, repeat. Feel like crap at the end of the day. If I eat carbs at the end of the day, I don't get that cause I'm going to sleep. If I go LC, I find it very difficult to stick with so for me, I think this could be the best of both worlds.
Hmmm.
FYI, even among diabetics, unless one's BG has sunk very low (or in some cases dropped a lot in a short time), no one is very good at guessing their BG based on their energy level, hunger, etc. Back before I got my BG under tight control (about 4 months into keto), I could easily be off by up to 50 points....
In your case, it might be instructive to buy an inexpensive meter (Contour Next EZ - cheap and accurate) and check your BG for a week or two using the pre- and post-meal testing protocol recommended at Chriskresser.com.
What do you find difficult about LC - anything in particular you're having trouble with?0 -
I guess I should be more precise. When I eat carbs early, I do get very hungry later. I assume it is due to blood sugar going down but I don't know that for sure. All I know is that it does make me hungry. I think it makes me fat too.
I've only tried low carb (under 50g/day) for a week and I didn't like how it made me feel. I may not have pushed through to a better feeling state but I seriously craved carbs during that time.
I think LCHF is a great tool and probably a necessary tool for some but if it's only weight loss that is needed, then I think I would rather do the approach I mentioned so I can have carbs since I like them. My morning blood sugar is good, 95 or so when I do the approach I mentioned. PP seems to be good too.1 -
I've only tried low carb (under 50g/day) for a week and I didn't like how it made me feel. I may not have pushed through to a better feeling state but I seriously craved carbs during that time.
Trying low carb for a week is usually not a long enough timeframe for your body to become fat adapted. I'm guessing that the reason you felt poorly was probably due to electrolyte imbalance (your body REQUIRES a MINIMUM of 3000mg-5000mg of SALT EVERY DAY when you follow this way of eating!!!!).I think it makes me fat too..
I'm not following you here. You think what exactly makes you fat?2 -
Whew, good to hear. Sounds like you've got a good scheme going for your circumstances.0
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Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »If you're metabolically healthy that may work just fine for you. Just have to try it and see.
But if you're getting low blood sugar (what does it test at?) that's a huge clue that you're not so metabolically healthy. It suggests hyperinsulinemia for sure. The only way to go low is too much insulin...
I personally will never eat grains again no matter what.
@Sunny_Bunny_ I agree with your point but after my experience Tuesday with over doing Pycnogel on Monday evening it is another way to make blood sugar bottom out at least in my case.
https://heartmdinstitute.com/diet-nutrition/how-to-lower-blood-sugar/
"Pycnogenol is an extract from French maritime pine bark. As a cardiologist, I simply can’t ignore Pycnogenol’s benefits for the heart. It boosts nitric oxide—a powerful vasodilator that helps relax and dilate the smooth muscles in the arteries. By doing so, it helps to regulate blood pressure and blood flow.
Even better, Pycnogenol lowers blood sugar naturally by boosting glucose intake by cells that are resistant to the effects of insulin. In a study of 77 patients with type 2 diabetes, taking 100 mg of Pycnogenol for 12 weeks significantly lowered blood sugar levels compared to placebo. Nitric oxide levels also increased in those who took the supplement."
In rereading this from Dr. Sinatra who I have been following for about 20 years perhaps I have some insulin resistance. While one 6 month study found BMI average dropped from 26.5 to 25 I am not sure why but I am seeing some weight loss in a long time but have not looked at my calorie intake in a while. Still only focusing on lowering my CRP test results and not my weight which has been stable for the past two years.
By the way I had been testing 300 mg 2x daily for a reaction. All was fine and my pain was approaching Zero. After I took 300 mg late Monday evening I read an article as to how to check to see if Pycnogenol had filler added to your brand. Without thinking I emptied a capsule of Viva Naturals brand and Healthy Origins. It turned out Viva had filler added but not Healthy Origins. To make sure I added one more cap of the Healthy Origins to a coffee cup and filled with hot water. That cup of tea had no crud in the bottom.
That meant I had consumed 900 mg on Monday with 600 mg of that was just before bed. I was moving slow Tuesday morning and had already left the house before I realized what was going on so I have no BG reading. Soon I may do some testing and record the results. I have no sugar problem based on any lab work. It as been safety tested to 450 mg daily.
Pycnogenol got my interest as it is proven to lower CRP levels and has about 300 lab studies of its benefits over the past 40 years.
greenmedinfo.com/substance/pycnogenol-pine-bark2 -
I tend to eat my carbs as the day goes on. If I have them early I get hungry.
I would be careful with the BG roller coaster though. You described reactive hypoglycaemia. Insulin goes high, too high, and then BG falls quickly. It can creat the feeling of low BG but it is falling BG that feels badly.
I had that for years before my BG started testing high...5 -
I tend to eat my carbs as the day goes on. If I have them early I get hungry.
I would be careful with the BG roller coaster though. You described reactive hypoglycaemia. Insulin goes high, too high, and then BG falls quickly. It can creat the feeling of low BG but it is falling BG that feels badly.
I had that for years before my BG started testing high...
@nvmomketo I never thought of it that way. Thanks.1 -
Eat breakfasts and lunches with very little to zero carbs (if those meals are eaten). But allow moderate carbs for dinner.
This is the same advice as in the Carbohydrate Addict's Diet -- http://www.carbohydrateaddicts.com/
It works for people who aren't too insulin resistant, I think. I found it kept sugar cravings too high for me. I feel better at less than 50-80 total carbs a day. Also, eating your carbs at night helps some people to sleep better.2 -
I hate to sound simplistic, and I apologise, I honestly mean no offence, but, @blambo61 it kinda sounds as if you're looking for the best of both worlds.
Now, I am the least scientific person you could think of. All these figures, percentages, quotients, ratios, graphs, statistics, measures.... thy're frankly, double-dutch. I pay little or scant attention to them.
I know my salt levels are good, because I love salt, and I use it liberally in my cooking. Not excessively; liberally.
I also drink water/ACV regularly, to keep my fluid intake up.
(I make up a 750ml bottle of water, 2 level tbsbps ACV, and 1/2 tsp Bicarb of Soda. This mix is specifically given to me by a Sports Therapist buddy of mine, because it counteracts muscle cramps; a problem I have suffered with, due to a spinal injury, and partial paralysis of the sciatic nerve down my left leg; It's a long story....but it works like a charm within literally seconds.)
I have completely cut the carbs, and that was a big thing for me (I am nondiabetic) because I'm an Italian, and pasta, rice, bread and potatoes play a huge part in Italian cuisine.
True to say though, admittedly, they do in every diet, wherever it stems from.
A Carb diet is addictive. It's addictive because of the sugar in it. And sugar is more addictive than cocaine or nicotine.
High-carb food, like cakes, doughnuts, cookies, buns, cupcakes, you name it, are a 'copy' of the very first food any of us enjoyed.
The ONLY NATURALLY-OCCURRING food, in nature, to be 50/50 fat/sugar - is breast milk. (naturally, it has other beneficial components too, but that's about the sum of it).
So we are naturally programmed/drawn to foods composed of the same, or similar ratios.
Carbs are a fix.
But they're a 'fix' in disguise.
For all the good they do me, I know that the negative effects far outweigh them.
So?
I gave 'em up. Big Time.
Did it hurt?
Damn it sure did, the first 2 - 3 weeks!
God, every carb that looked at me, had that hooked finger 'come hither' temptation....
But I roide through it. Through the hunger pangs, the headaches, the lethargy, the muscle aches, the temper and the mood swings.
Coulda been the menopause, but I don't think so..
You need to give it time.
But in my opinion, if you're going to go 'LCHF', then there's no pussyfooting, no straddling 2 camps.
You're either in (cold turkey) or you ain't.
Intermittent LCHF is not intermittent.
It's moving the goalposts, and sometimes, in some things, you can't do that....
Again, I'm just calling it as I see it. I have no science to give you to back it up.
Just my own personal experience and testimony.
Hope this helps....5 -
I believe it's eating carbs earlier in the day (possibly followed by reactive hypoglycemia) and resulting hunger pangs. It's still familiar to me, having been on that same bumpy wagon back in my Ornish days.I've only tried low carb (under 50g/day) for a week and I didn't like how it made me feel. I may not have pushed through to a better feeling state but I seriously craved carbs during that time.
Trying low carb for a week is usually not a long enough timeframe for your body to become fat adapted. I'm guessing that the reason you felt poorly was probably due to electrolyte imbalance (your body REQUIRES a MINIMUM of 3000mg-5000mg of SALT EVERY DAY when you follow this way of eating!!!!).I think it makes me fat too..
I'm not following you here. You think what exactly makes you fat?
(I still wish someone had given me Atkins instead of Ornish back when, but I still might not have gotten it...)1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
@Sunny_Bunny_ I agree with your point but after my experience Tuesday with over doing Pycnogenol on Monday evening it is another way to make blood sugar bottom out at least in my case.
https://heartmdinstitute.com/diet-nutrition/how-to-lower-blood-sugar/
greenmedinfo.com/substance/pycnogenol-pine-bark
Do you have brand recommendations?1 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »
@Sunny_Bunny_ I agree with your point but after my experience Tuesday with over doing Pycnogenol on Monday evening it is another way to make blood sugar bottom out at least in my case.
https://heartmdinstitute.com/diet-nutrition/how-to-lower-blood-sugar/
greenmedinfo.com/substance/pycnogenol-pine-bark
Do you have brand recommendations?
All I know is the Viva had fillers that didn't disovle in hot water. But Healthy Origins does not.
After the fact I read how to do the tea test and that person preferred Healthy Origins
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I use Life Plus...it's a tablet, not a capsule, and they call it "proanthenols"1
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tcunbeliever wrote: »I use Life Plus...it's a tablet, not a capsule, and they call it "proanthenols"
lifeplusvitamins.com/opc-grape-seed-chart.html
"All Proanthenols OPC™ products are formulated with 100% bioavailable and 100% residue free Proanthocyanidins (OPC) from Masquelier's OPC including pharmaceutical grade extracts of both grape seeds and pine bark. Other names for OPC are proanthocyanidins, and leucocyanidins.
The OPC in Proanthenols OPC is manufactured and distributed under protection of U.S. Patent Number 4,698,360 assuring today's standard of excellence in OPC. One important reason that Life Plus Proanthenols OPC stands out is the inclusion of CytoFlav-C, a secret blend of synergistic nutrients including Lemon Bioflavonoids, Hesperidin, Rutin, Quercetin and Vitamin C.
They belong to the total family of bioflavonoids, occur in nature with OPC and are a unique plus to these great formulas. The use of high quality patented extracts from both grape seeds and pine bark combined with the other unique synergistic nutrients in CytoFlav-C and the Life Plus PhytoZyme tablet base ensures the very finest in OPC products.
In addition, it only makes sense to take advantage of the various individual catechins that occur in both grape seed and pine bark extracts. Each of them have their value and the Life Plus formula takes advantage of both........"
@tcunbeliever the best I can tell this product is comes from grape seed plus the secret blend noted above. It sounds similar to Pycnogenol. Other than being more expensive than Healthy Origins it marketing materials sounds like it is a good product.
Since all of the massive lab studies are based on actually using Pycnogenol in testing I will have to stick with pine bark source that matches the research for my future book concerning inflammation control and longevity assuming I live long enough to write it.
So far I have not found a reason why someone relative healthy that is Rx med free would not be fine taking 100 mg once to twice daily just to cut down internal inflammation from just daily living.
Pycnogenol however is NOT risk free. It clearly seems to reduce and or slow the digestion of carbohydrates in humans like some diabetes meds.
"Pycnogenol has also exhibited a more direct influence on the processes by which diabetes exacts damage in the body. It appears to do so in several ways: a) by inhibiting carbohydrate digestion via an enzyme known as alpha-glucosidase, thereby lowering post-meal glucose elevation; b) by assisting with long term blood sugar control (HbA1c); c) by improving nerve conduction and health and; d) by combating oxidative stress in the eyes of those with diabetic retinopathy. (10,11,12,13,14,15)........" The source is below:
healthyfellow.com/423/pycnogenol-and-eye-health/
Elevated sugar levels can in time lead to blindness, heart disease, dementia, removal of feet and legs, etc. Self treatment can be very risky for the person that does not greatly understand diabetes and how to monitor it and consider sharing that with your friends you mentioned earlier.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/3/839.1
French Maritime Pine Bark Extract Pycnogenol Dose-Dependently Lowers Glucose in Type 2 Diabetic Patients1 -
@GaleHawkins - I really like GreenMedInfo so far. I have not gone to the paid membership stage yet, but seriously considering it based on how impressed I have been with what I have been able to find so far. Do you have a paid membership? If so, what are your thoughts?
@blambo61 - my thought about the carb hunger is that it might not be hormonal. Nearly all of the enzymes that breakdown carbs are in your saliva which means they spend very little time in your stomach.
If you eat carbs until you are full, you will be stretching your stomach at least a bit. Then shortly after, it will be empty and sending you signals alerting you to this unpleasant status.
I learned this many many years ago in college. I competed in some informal eating competitions where I learned that if I ate a whole box of sugary cereal for breakfast, I could stretch out my stomach, but within a couple of hours, it would be completely empty. This allowed me to eat more in the competition.
I know, I know, that is completely unhealthy and disgusting. What can I say? I was young and poor and the competitions were generally based on loser had to pay for the meal. I was young and poor and would frequently not eat for an extended period of time afterwards - like up to a day or two.2 -
@GaleHawkins, secret formulas of nutrients in nutritional products give me pause. ??2
