Insulin Load - The Greatest Thing Since Carb Counting?
RalfLott
Posts: 5,036 Member
From Marty Kendall -
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2016/05/02/insulin-load-the-greatest-thing-since-carb-counting/
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2016/08/08/how-to-make-endogenous-ketones-at-home/
"I enthusiastically started adding generous amounts of fat from all the yummy stuff (cheese, butter, cream, peanut butter, BPC etc) in the hope of achieving higher ketone levels and therefore weight loss, but I just got fatter and more inflamed as you can see.....
I realised that ENDOGENOUS ketosis and weight loss is caused by a lower dietary insulin load, not more EXOGENOUS fat on your plate or in your coffee cup."
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2016/05/02/insulin-load-the-greatest-thing-since-carb-counting/
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2016/08/08/how-to-make-endogenous-ketones-at-home/
"I enthusiastically started adding generous amounts of fat from all the yummy stuff (cheese, butter, cream, peanut butter, BPC etc) in the hope of achieving higher ketone levels and therefore weight loss, but I just got fatter and more inflamed as you can see.....
I realised that ENDOGENOUS ketosis and weight loss is caused by a lower dietary insulin load, not more EXOGENOUS fat on your plate or in your coffee cup."
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IDK.
I used to follow a glycemic index type diet, but that failed me. It doesn't often matter what source my carbs come from, so long as I hover around at or stay less than 20 net g/day. Honest to Pete. I will still read this, though...as something tells me the 2nd link may prove me wrong. Making my own what? I am suuuuuch a DIY-er, its not even funny. I make my own mayo, salad dressing, even crackers and bread. LOL2 -
PS the pics of the guys who clearly skip leg day just kill me every time. Ha.
(not that I lift...yet..it's just so out of proportion that it looks funny)2 -
More insight from Marty regarding exogenous ketones being insulinogenic.
"I've had a couple of people recently query whether exogenous ketone are insulinogenic.
I figured it would be interesting to do a food insulin index test with exogenous ketones or get an insulin dependent Type 1 to see how much insulin they need to keep blood glucose stable and keep ketones down. But then I found this figure in a recent Veech paper.
Thirty-nine athletes took an isocaloric dose of ketone esters, carbs and fat. The ketones cause about half the rise in blood glucose levels compared to carbohydrates. Then, as the insulin rises we see a decrease in glucose as the increased insulin bring glucose down.
Based on this data it appears that exogenous ketones have about half the insulinogenic impact of carbohydrates, or about the same as protein.
So, if you're avoiding protein because of the insulinogenic effect you should also be avoiding exogenous ketones for the same reason.
It might also be worth keeping in mind that protein containing foods contain a ton of essential vitamins, minerals and amino acids, while exogenous ketones do not provide any nutrients other than energy.
So, if you're using exogenous ketones with the hope of reducing insulin levels or reversing metabolic disease (e.g. Type 2, cancer, alzheimer's, obesity) then maybe think again.
Mike Julian added "While EK may be equally as insulinogenic as protein, they'll also be a counterproductive use of insulin. Whereas the insulin response to protein is a positive use of insulin to build and repair muscle the body. With exogenous ketones, insulin simply reduces oxidation of other fuels to allow ketones to be burned. That is, exogenous ketones displace the burning of other substrates.
"You know what else displaces the burning of other substrates? Glucose. Carbs reduce the amount of fat you burn. Exogenous ketones displace both fat and carbs/glucose. That's a double whammy in the wrong direction!
"Substrate competition is key.
"If exogenous ketones raise insulin and reduce blood glucose, then where does the glucose go? It gets stuffed back into the liver. Think about all of these people who fast with the intent of depleting liver glycogen but drinking Keto/OS. They're literally preserving glycogen stores. No wonder we were seeing whacky glucose and ketone response to fasting with exogenous ketones.
"Instead of the normal trajectory of a fast that would result in depleted liver glycogen we see exogenous ketones keeps this from happening, so you would get purges of glucose out of the liver throughout the fast when people were fasting using exogenous ketones."
Here's the study he referenced.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0sywwxp1aghcfmn/cox2016.pdf?dl=0
Very good stuff from him and Mike Julian all the time.1 -
From Marty Kendall -
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2016/05/02/insulin-load-the-greatest-thing-since-carb-counting/
https://optimisingnutrition.com/2016/08/08/how-to-make-endogenous-ketones-at-home/
"I enthusiastically started adding generous amounts of fat from all the yummy stuff (cheese, butter, cream, peanut butter, BPC etc) in the hope of achieving higher ketone levels and therefore weight loss, but I just got fatter and more inflamed as you can see.....
I realised that ENDOGENOUS ketosis and weight loss is caused by a lower dietary insulin load, not more EXOGENOUS fat on your plate or in your coffee cup."
Although I like much of what Dr Hyman says, I hate the title of his book "Eat Fat, Get Thin" just because I think it can be misleading. Eating more of anything is not going to make you thinner.
The real point is eat less of what will make you fat - carbs (primarily those without a cell wall) - and replace them with things that don't - healthy natural fats and proteins - to the point of satiety.
I know the general public still needs to be unbrainwashed in regard to fat being harmful, but hopefully those in this group have figured that part out.
The next step is figuring out that if we do what is healthy, our body will produce ketones. Ketones are a byproduct of eating right. They are not, for most people, the goal in and of themselves. Unless there is a therapeutic purpose for higher ketone levels such as epilepsy, more ketones does not mean better. Less insulin combined with lower BG is the point.
I love the fat in my diet like the blue cheese on top of the grass fed butter I slathered on my grass fed steak (that is on my menu for tonight). That said, that fat is not going above and beyond the amount of food I need to maintain the level of weight/body fat I desire in order to reach some magical ketone level. It is merely the amount I personally need to replace what used to be consumed via carbs for the energy my body needs.
This should be all about optimal health. Eating more of anything when it is not needed by your body is not going to lead to optimal health.2 -
You know, I go about my daily life feeling likely a fairly smart person. And then I come here. I need someone to seriously dumb down this kind of stuff. And hold me.6
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You know, I go about my daily life feeling likely a fairly smart person. And then I come here. I need someone to seriously dumb down this kind of stuff. And hold me.
Basically the idea you see so often promoted by some keto groups to eat fat, drink fat, eat sticks of butter and keep protein low, is problematic because the very high intake of fat in that excessive way actually stimulates insulin to store it as fat on the body because that's what it does whenever excessive overall energy suddenly becomes available that the body doesn't need.
And if people would stop constantly cutting protein and replacing it with fat they would get better nutrition overall and be more likely to lose more body fat and have better success reversing hyperinsulinemia if that is also their goal.
But many groups highly encourage the consumption of fat bombs and fatty coffees with the idea that eating fat is what causes fat loss. That's not only true, it can actually be worsening or creating insulin resistance.4 -
You know, I go about my daily life feeling likely a fairly smart person. And then I come here. I need someone to seriously dumb down this kind of stuff. And hold me.
My simple answer is eat real natural food and you will be ok. Things like fat bombs should be viewed the way my grandma viewed deserts - nice treats to have once or twice a month.
Exogenous ketones can be quite beneficial for those with neurological disease needing higher ketone levels than many can attain via nutrition, but unless you have that type of disease, nutrition is your best medicine.3 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
Basically the idea you see so often promoted by some keto groups to eat fat, drink fat, eat sticks of butter and keep protein low, is problematic because the very high intake of fat in that excessive way actually stimulates insulin to store it as fat on the body because that's what it does whenever excessive overall energy suddenly becomes available that the body doesn't need.
And if people would stop constantly cutting protein and replacing it with fat they would get better nutrition overall and be more likely to lose more body fat* and have better success reversing hyperinsulinemia if that is also their goal.
But many groups highly encourage the consumption of fat bombs and fatty coffees with the idea that eating fat is what causes fat loss. That's not only true, it can actually be worsening or creating insulin resistance.
*And, as you've often observed, less likely to lose lean tissue/muscle mass.1 -
You know, I go about my daily life feeling likely a fairly smart person. And then I come here. I need someone to seriously dumb down this kind of stuff. And hold me.
I was going to ask someone to provide an executive summary for me. It may be that my brain is addled from Holy Week incense, but I want to read something and have a takeaway. How exactly am I supposed to respond to this?0 -
Well, to be fair, protein brings it's own insulin surge for storage purposes, however the breaking down of whole proteins into AAs is inefficient in and of itself (hence the higher TEF), and the conversion to storable fat is even more ridiculous. Neither of those last two things can be said for dietary fat though.
That said, I'm glad to see more and more people leaning away from the "drink a bottle of oil because 85% fat macros" gibberish. If someone isn't completely metabolically broken or suffering from epilepsy, there is no need for that kind of absurdity, and as always, one's LBM will thank them.3 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »
Basically the idea you see so often promoted by some keto groups to eat fat, drink fat, eat sticks of butter and keep protein low, is problematic because the very high intake of fat in that excessive way actually stimulates insulin to store it as fat on the body because that's what it does whenever excessive overall energy suddenly becomes available that the body doesn't need.
And if people would stop constantly cutting protein and replacing it with fat they would get better nutrition overall and be more likely to lose more body fat and have better success reversing hyperinsulinemia if that is also their goal.
But many groups highly encourage the consumption of fat bombs and fatty coffees with the idea that eating fat is what causes fat loss. That's not only true, it can actually be worsening or creating insulin resistance.cstehansen wrote: »
My simple answer is eat real natural food and you will be ok. Things like fat bombs should be viewed the way my grandma viewed deserts - nice treats to have once or twice a month.
Exogenous ketones can be quite beneficial for those with neurological disease needing higher ketone levels than many can attain via nutrition, but unless you have that type of disease, nutrition is your best medicine.
Excellent!! This is how I've approached it, so I'm glad to see I align with science I can't understand.
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Thanks RalfLott, I had run across Marty via the 2ketoduds, but not this formula.
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