Keto Newbie

Retrofit55

Greetings All, I am a 62 y.o. female, 230 lbs and 5'5" tall. Multiple medical problems including metabolic syndrome and a complex polypain syndrome, all of which worsened last year when I had a devastating, prolonged (and still recovering) neuromuscular adverse reaction to a statin drug prescribed for high cholesterol, Crestor (rosuvastatin). I put on 30# during this adverse reaction, which only made the polypain syndrome worse, of course. In desperation, I began a keto diet 17 days ago and, although I have not lost a single pound on the scales, I am now convinced this nutrition is EXACTLY what I have been needing for decades. Between the obesity and constant severe pain issues, depression and anxiety are daily problems and this may be where I have seen the greatest improvement. Once the keto flu resolved (about 1 wk in), I noticed that my anxiety was decreasing and depression lifting with every single day I continued to eat keto. The neuromuscular pain itself is the same but with keto I get the sense that both my physical and mental health are improving so much that eventually even a portion of the pain will have to disappear too as my fitness improves (particularly when actual weight loss kicks in). And I am even more encouraged by the reports that a keto diet can help improve mitochondrial function (which took a major blow thanks to Crestor). So I am thrilled and hopeful. I have never been on a diet where the scales truly did not matter to me and I am flatly amazed that I have not been discouraged to the point of quitting by the failure to lose pounds on the scale. But I cannot be discouraged: I just feel too good in general now that I've switched to a LCHF diet.

Since starting keto, I have realized that all of my life I have been simply mistaken about what COMFORT FOOD is. Comfort food is supposed to taste good, comfort us, make us happy, make us feel better about ourselves, more complete and intact, make us feel healthier and give us confidence that we are better equipped to deal with, and dispose of, whatever is causing us DIScomfort. I now know that sugar and wheat just doesn't do that for me. But to my surprise, eating keto does. I am happier now, far fewer emotional ups and downs. I have virtually no food cravings between meals. When I am hungry, I am really hungry, but with keto I can eat as much delicious, nutrient rich food as I want and experience true, lasting satiety (also a first). And I am having a blast learning about the keto foods/menus/recipes available for me to enjoy. KETO IS MY COMFORT indulgence now!

I'm sure I haven't lost weight yet because (among other reasons) my calorie count is high. I am not restricting calories during this introductory phase, just monitoring them as this experiment plays out. My goal is a gentle lifestyle change and I am okay with doing it the easiest way and losing slowly, just shooting for 25g carbs (5%), 175g fat (80%) and 74g protein (15%) with a gallon of H20 daily.

I expect I'll have to tighten up the calories eventually, but would love to hear about someone else's weight loss experience with a high calorie LCHF diet.

Also, is anyone aware of any LCHF support groups in the Knoxville TN area? So far, I've been pursuing this keto diet solo while learning about it from the internet, but it would be so nice to partner with some others in my area (or elsewhere) with common goals.

WVWalkerFriend

Welcome! I've been keto since mid-March and didn't lose right away either. I also don't count calories on a regular basis, though I did for a few days recently because of a fluctuation. Perhaps Facebook would have a group in your area? Or you could start one.

GaleHawkins

@Retrofit55 that sounds a lot like me starting in Oct 2014 at the age of 63. Poor health had been with me for 40 years when I started to crash at the speed of light it seemed.

Without knowing about keto I accidently when LCHF by cutting out sugar and all forms of all grains and getting into coconut oil in a major way hoping for pain management from arthritis related health issues.

30 days later my 40 years of pain levels in the 7-8 range were down to 2-3. My weight when unchanged for the first 45 days.

I found in my case it was more important to learn how to live in a state of nutritional ketosis than to lose weight. As my body started to heal the weight started drifting down. Key was after two weeks my carb cravings started just fade away. I am still high calorie but I eat <50 grams of carbs most days and that has fixed so many health issues since Oct 2014. I stay full all of the time now and have maintained for two years without monitoring my calories on full food.

Best of continued success.

2t9nty

I think acclimating yourself to the carb restriction is probably a good way to start. As you become adapted and increasingly comfortable with it, I would keep an eye on the calories if losing weight is a goal.

GaleHawkins

https://youtube.com/watch?v=FaaFZfBrE5w

Butter Bob must live near Knoxville TN since he drove to the UT Knoxville Medical Center to pick up his CAC score results. I just had my ran in Paris TN for the same price ($100). I left with a CD containing my scan but they are to mail the the scoring results.

kpk54

Welcome! My opinion: Yes, as you stated above, you will likely need to reduce calories if you want to lose weight. The up side of what you are doing now is, so long as you are not gaining and because you are not losing, you are establishing what your maintenance calories are so when you decide to cut calories you will have a great point from which to start.

My experience: 63 yr old female 5'6": I started MFP in 2013 at age 59 with the sole intention of losing my excess weight (63 pounds). I was able to do that in 53 weeks via a calorie reduction and increased activity, generally following 40%c/30%p/30%f. That 40% placed me at the high end of low carb though that wasn't intentional. I didn't have a goal to be low carb. I just wanted to lose my excess weight, and did.

For the next almost 2 years, I maintained the weight loss in the same general ways but through a "white knuckle" approach. I was always hungry. I mean, HUNGRY. I began bingeing on trigger/comfort foods, any food really... and of course to maintain my weight, I restricted calories also. It was a vicious cycle of eating perhaps 5000+ calories one day then trying to fast or eat a few hundred the next few days/week. I didn't binge every day. I didn't binge every week. I just had "episodes". Too frequent.

April 2016 I joined this forum in an effort to see what I might learn about cholesterol. Through this forum, I learned about medically therapeutic diets for neurological disorders. I seem to be a very healthy 63 year old but I do have a neurological movement disorder Cervical Dystonia aka Spasmodic Torticollis (rotational right turn). It is one of those no known cause, no known cure type of disorders. My onset was in 2000 at age 46. Enough said on that. I decided to try keto for neurological reasons and dove right in.

Much to my disbelief, my observable involuntary movement minimized. Also to my disbelief, the raging hunger I had been experiencing for 2 year in maintenance ceased. The bingeing has been non existent for many months now. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, keto ceased to be effective for my movement disorder after about 6 month though I continued eating strict keto for an additional 6 months.

That brings me close to up to date. I upped my carbs to 15% (57 total grams) mid April and just yesterday, upped them again to 20% (77 grams). I'll see how it goes. I won't eat that many on a regular basis. I just wont but I like variety in foods. Summer is coming and my vegetable garden is planted. I have yet to go to the doc and see about my cholesterol so I don't know what effect lchf has had on it. I'll do that sometime this year. I may go back to strict keto again and see if I can re-experience the truly magical improvement I had for 6 months regarding my dystonia. Regardless, I'll remain considerably lower carb and higher fat than the standard American diet. Not having that unrelenting hunger day in and day out is worth not eating a bunch of cookies, cake, ice cream, sugar/fat, sugar/fat, sugar/fat, sugar/fat, sugar/fat.

I have no experience with weight loss and LCHF. I know I didn't gain. I eat maintenance calories and I no longer feel like I'm starving all the time. Works for me. Good luck!

Retrofit55

Thank you so much, Everyone, for the cheery welcome and tips! I love hearing your stories of the challenges, failures, modifications, and successes you've experienced! So inspiring!

cstehansen

Welcome, @Retrofit55 !

I only did low carb and not keto losing roughly 40 lbs but have done maintenance at keto level carbs. 30 lbs into that loss is when I was diagnosed with T2D, which was frustrating given I was almost at goal weight at that time, and at 6'1", even 40 lbs heavier was not that big.

I eat this way because of the BG control because there is no science I can find that backs up the ADA recommendation to eat low fat/high carb to control BG (in fact, mine went higher when I followed their guidelines) and a ton of research showing low carb success for controlling BG.

Of course, like many here, I had loved ones who freaked out and said I was going to kill myself because of eating all the fat and I needed to watch my cholesterol. Like with BG, I decided to read the actual research on the topic rather than just take recommendations at face value. Here are some links you may find helpful.

Given what you said about your reaction to statins, this first one may be of particular interest to you:

http://www.thennt.com/nnt/statins-for-heart-disease-prevention-without-prior-heart-disease/

It clearly lays out the odds of the statin doing harm is much higher than that of doing good. One of the issues it doesn't cover is the link between statin use and Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia which is not being realized. This is because your brain absolutely requires cholesterol to function. Because of the blood/brain barrier, cholesterol from the rest of your body can't get to your brain. Statins suppress the ability of your cells to make cholesterol (and every cell in your body makes it), so if there is not enough made in your brain due to this suppression, cognition issues ensue. My dad was recently put on a statin despite having a great HDL/triglyceride ratio but total was right at 200. It was evident within a few weeks his memory was deteriorating fast.

Here is an article related to that:

http://www.neurology.org/content/64/10/1689.abstract

Because of your age, I think this next study is super important for you to read:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3750440/

If you are not a nerd like me, let me just quote one part that is key:

Results from the survival analyses are given in Tables I–IV. For TC, the mortality was significantly lower in the TC groups 5–5.99 mmol/L and 6–7.99 mmol/L, in both sexes and in all age groups compared with the group with TC < 5 mmol/L

Here it is if I do the conversion into the US units for cholesterol:

Results from the survival analyses are given in Tables I–IV. For TC, the mortality was significantly lower in the TC groups 193.34–231.63 mg/dl and 232.01–308.97 mg/dl, in both sexes and in all age groups compared with the group with TC < 193.34 mg/dl

In other words, for optimal survival, you want your cholesterol between 193 and 309. Under that level and over that level are where it is associated with higher mortality.

Here is a link so you can do your own conversion of these:

http://www.onlineconversion.com/cholesterol.htm

Finally, many of the doctors use the Framingham risk score, however, the Reynold's risk score has been shown to be between 30-50% more accurate in assessing risk. Here is a link to that:

http://www.reynoldsriskscore.org/default.aspx

And here is a link to one of the studies validating this as a more accurate way to assess risk from JAMA (Journal of American Medical Association):

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/205528?resultClick=24

Retrofit55

How long was it until you began to see results on the scales?

I've searched both FB and craigslist for keto groups nearby and see none, which surprises me. May wind up starting one as you've suggested.

LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »

Welcome! I've been keto since mid-March and didn't lose right away either. I also don't count calories on a regular basis, though I did for a few days recently because of a fluctuation. Perhaps Facebook would have a group in your area? Or you could start one.

Retrofit55

cstehansen wrote: »

Welcome, @Retrofit55 !

I only did low carb and not keto losing roughly 40 lbs but have done maintenance at keto level carbs. 30 lbs into that loss is when I was diagnosed with T2D, which was frustrating given I was almost at goal weight at that time, and at 6'1", even 40 lbs heavier was not that big.

I eat this way because of the BG control because there is no science I can find that backs up the ADA recommendation to eat low fat/high carb to control BG (in fact, mine went higher when I followed their guidelines) and a ton of research showing low carb success for controlling BG.

Of course, like many here, I had loved ones who freaked out and said I was going to kill myself because of eating all the fat and I needed to watch my cholesterol. Like with BG, I decided to read the actual research on the topic rather than just take recommendations at face value. Here are some links you may find helpful.

Given what you said about your reaction to statins, this first one may be of particular interest to you:

http://www.thennt.com/nnt/statins-for-heart-disease-prevention-without-prior-heart-disease/

It clearly lays out the odds of the statin doing harm is much higher than that of doing good. One of the issues it doesn't cover is the link between statin use and Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia which is not being realized. This is because your brain absolutely requires cholesterol to function. Because of the blood/brain barrier, cholesterol from the rest of your body can't get to your brain. Statins suppress the ability of your cells to make cholesterol (and every cell in your body makes it), so if there is not enough made in your brain due to this suppression, cognition issues ensue. My dad was recently put on a statin despite having a great HDL/triglyceride ratio but total was right at 200. It was evident within a few weeks his memory was deteriorating fast.

Here is an article related to that:

http://www.neurology.org/content/64/10/1689.abstract

Because of your age, I think this next study is super important for you to read:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3750440/

If you are not a nerd like me, let me just quote one part that is key:

Results from the survival analyses are given in Tables I–IV. For TC, the mortality was significantly lower in the TC groups 5–5.99 mmol/L and 6–7.99 mmol/L, in both sexes and in all age groups compared with the group with TC < 5 mmol/L

Here it is if I do the conversion into the US units for cholesterol:

Results from the survival analyses are given in Tables I–IV. For TC, the mortality was significantly lower in the TC groups 193.34–231.63 mg/dl and 232.01–308.97 mg/dl, in both sexes and in all age groups compared with the group with TC < 193.34 mg/dl

In other words, for optimal survival, you want your cholesterol between 193 and 309. Under that level and over that level are where it is associated with higher mortality.

Here is a link so you can do your own conversion of these:

http://www.onlineconversion.com/cholesterol.htm

Finally, many of the doctors use the Framingham risk score, however, the Reynold's risk score has been shown to be between 30-50% more accurate in assessing risk. Here is a link to that:

http://www.reynoldsriskscore.org/default.aspx

And here is a link to one of the studies validating this as a more accurate way to assess risk from JAMA (Journal of American Medical Association):

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/205528?resultClick=24

Thanks, cstehansen! I'm looking forward to reviewing the literature you recommended. My father had early onset Alzheimer's and, when I realized what Crestor had done to my muscle cells (and began to appreciate WHY it did so much damage), I shuddered to think of what it did to my brain cells as well. It's a super bad drug for many of us. It ultimately landed me in the hospital with premature ventricular contractions (way dehydrated since I was virtually paralyzed, with screwed up electrolytes). Since a cardiac cath at that time indicated I had "normal for age" arteries, my cardiologist opted not to resume a non-statin cholesterol lowering drug (no matter, even with the doctor's recommendation, there was no way in blazes I'd take it now) and my cholesterol shot up over the ensuing months. I see keto/LCHF as being my best chance for managing the cholesterol without a single pill. That's the goal anyway!

Retrofit55

GaleHawkins wrote: »

https://youtube.com/watch?v=FaaFZfBrE5w

Butter Bob must live near Knoxville TN since he drove to the UT Knoxville Medical Center to pick up his CAC score results. I just had my ran in Paris TN for the same price ($100). I left with a CD containing my scan but they are to mail the the scoring results.

I've never heard of the coronary artery calcium test so am glad you mentioned it. I'll ask my doc about it. The price is steep but surely worth it for those who are high risk for heart issues, and $100 beats the $350 that I see is charged for the test elsewhere.

Retrofit55

GaleHawkins wrote: »

@Retrofit55 that sounds a lot like me starting in Oct 2014 at the age of 63. Poor health had been with me for 40 years when I started to crash at the speed of light it seemed.

Without knowing about keto I accidently when LCHF by cutting out sugar and all forms of all grains and getting into coconut oil in a major way hoping for pain management from arthritis related health issues.

30 days later my 40 years of pain levels in the 7-8 range were down to 2-3. My weight when unchanged for the first 45 days.

I found in my case it was more important to learn how to live in a state of nutritional ketosis than to lose weight. As my body started to heal the weight started drifting down. Key was after two weeks my carb cravings started just fade away. I am still high calorie but I eat <50 grams of carbs most days and that has fixed so many health issues since Oct 2014. I stay full all of the time now and have maintained for two years without monitoring my calories on full food.

Best of continued success.

GaleHawkins wrote: »

@Retrofit55 that sounds a lot like me starting in Oct 2014 at the age of 63. Poor health had been with me for 40 years when I started to crash at the speed of light it seemed.

Without knowing about keto I accidently when LCHF by cutting out sugar and all forms of all grains and getting into coconut oil in a major way hoping for pain management from arthritis related health issues.

30 days later my 40 years of pain levels in the 7-8 range were down to 2-3. My weight when unchanged for the first 45 days.

I found in my case it was more important to learn how to live in a state of nutritional ketosis than to lose weight. As my body started to heal the weight started drifting down. Key was after two weeks my carb cravings started just fade away. I am still high calorie but I eat <50 grams of carbs most days and that has fixed so many health issues since Oct 2014. I stay full all of the time now and have maintained for two years without monitoring my calories on full food.

Best of continued success.

Oh my goodness, GaleHawkins, THAT's what I want with LCHF -- a huge decline in the severity of the constant pain! With only a few exceptions it hasn't been below 8/10 for over a year (sometimes still hits 9/10). Exhausting. Opiates mercifully pulled the neuromuscular pain out of constant 9/10 and 10/10 last year, but they also made me gain 30 pounds in four months, messing with my compromised health even more, so I discontinued them in Feb. Now my body is miserable AND fatter, and I'm just praying keto will restore SOME wellness to this body that the statin stripped from me. Our experiences are similar and your story is so encouraging to me. Thank you for sharing.

Retrofit55

Retrofit55 wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

https://youtube.com/watch?v=FaaFZfBrE5w

Butter Bob must live near Knoxville TN since he drove to the UT Knoxville Medical Center to pick up his CAC score results. I just had my ran in Paris TN for the same price ($100). I left with a CD containing my scan but they are to mail the the scoring results.

I've never heard of the coronary artery calcium test so am glad you mentioned it. I'll ask my doc about it. The price is steep but surely worth it for those who are high risk for heart issues, and $100 beats the $350 that I see is charged for the test elsewhere.

Also...Butter Bob? Not sure I'm using MFP search correctly but couldn't find him while searching.

Retrofit55

2t9nty wrote: »

I think acclimating yourself to the carb restriction is probably a good way to start. As you become adapted and increasingly comfortable with it, I would keep an eye on the calories if losing weight is a goal.

Now, a month after I began keto, I'm no longer intimidated by the thought of a no sugar and no wheat lifestyle, so I decided to jumpstart the ketogenesis with intermittent fasting a few days ago. No weight loss yet but, while I've been maintaining my macros, my calorie count has plummeted using an 8 hour feeding window, which solves the problem of excessive calories quite nicely for me. In fact, a 16 hour fast has lowered my appetite so much (beyond the already impressive appetite suppression that keto provides) that I've easily expanded the fast by 2-3 more hours, using plenty of LCHF whole foods during the feeding window. It's working out well so far.

AlexandraCarlyle

Retrofit55 wrote: »

Also...Butter Bob? Not sure I'm using MFP search correctly but couldn't find him while searching.

He's not on MFP.
He's on Youtube

Specifically: this...

And this sums it up in a nutshell...

Alaplum

Just like you, I'm new and not seeing tons of weight loss. I did drop initial water weight but it's like watching molasses when it comes to the scale. I just don't care, (mostly) because the other benefits are kicking in. I feel good, positive and motivated. Probably a bit of depression I never noticed. My eyesight is amazing now and my anxiety appears to be less. I'm also noticing a reduction in knee pain which has been killing me for years. It's good to feel good. Congrats and yeah, don't worry about the weight.

Retrofit55

AlexandraCarlyle wrote: »

Retrofit55 wrote: »

Also...Butter Bob? Not sure I'm using MFP search correctly but couldn't find him while searching.

He's not on MFP.
He's on Youtube

Specifically: this...

And this sums it up in a nutshell...

Thanks GaleHawkins and AlexandraCarlyle, I found Butter Bob. It looks like he's from Nashville, a few hours west of Knoxville. But his story is pretty impressive, particularly since it doesn't appear he broke his budget trying to make 100% of his food purchases organically grown. I'll touch base with him to see what keto/LCHF support groups he might be aware of in East TN.

canadjineh

Hi @Retrofit55 your body may not drop weight at first. It may work on the more important job of healing some of your other health issues. You may notice more Non Scale Victories like lessened pain or better rest etc. Keep an eye out for those things as they are also things to celebrate!

Retrofit55

canadjineh wrote: »

Hi @Retrofit55 your body may not drop weight at first. It may work on the more important job of healing some of your other health issues. You may notice more Non Scale Victories like lessened pain or better rest etc. Keep an eye out for those things as they are also things to celebrate!

You know, canadjinah, I've come to think those Non Scale Victories are MORE important than any change we see on the scales. After all, ANYONE can lose dozens of pounds on the scales -- many or most of us have already lost hundreds of pounds over the decades with repeated, stupid, severe calorie-restricting diets...only to damage our health and then regain the weight later. But I'm sold on this WOE because the entire approach is different. It's kinda like when, in the movie Scarface, Al Pacino said "First you get the money, then you get the power and then you get the woman.” The sequence is everything! First you get your nutrition straightened out (for me, this meant keto and eliminating all refined sugars and wheat from my diet)...and then the weight loss will eventually appear, as it did this morning (see my other post today)!

I dearly wish I could say that decreased pain was one of the Non Scale Victories I have experienced but it still hasn't dropped below 8/10 since I discontinued opiates in February (8/10 is quite unbearable, particularly since there is absolutely no respite from it, however brief.) But I could still tell my body was responding happily to all of the new, clean, whole foods I'm feeding it now, so it was easier to remain persistent with this new WOE. I do think that continued persistence with keto and intermittent fasting will be able to pull the pain level down at least a notch or two eventually and I will be overjoyed if, though good nutrition and gradual weight loss, I can just get it to average no more than 5/10 -- a level that doesn't threaten and frighten me so badly since I can manage it quite nicely with my alternative med that doesn't poison my organs like opiates do. I have already decided that, regardless of the number on the scales, if keto and intermittent fasting helps me achieve an average of 5/10, I am going to celebrate THAT Non Scale Victory with the biggest party I've ever thrown! And sugar and wheat won't get invitations.

swezeytba

Retrofit55 wrote: »

canadjineh wrote: »

Hi @Retrofit55 your body may not drop weight at first. It may work on the more important job of healing some of your other health issues. You may notice more Non Scale Victories like lessened pain or better rest etc. Keep an eye out for those things as they are also things to celebrate!

You know, canadjinah, I've come to think those Non Scale Victories are MORE important than any change we see on the scales. After all, ANYONE can lose dozens of pounds on the scales -- many or most of us have already lost hundreds of pounds over the decades with repeated, stupid, severe calorie-restricting diets...only to damage our health and then regain the weight later. But I'm sold on this WOE because the entire approach is different. It's kinda like when, in the movie Scarface, Al Pacino said "First you get the money, then you get the power and then you get the woman.” The sequence is everything! First you get your nutrition straightened out (for me, this meant keto and eliminating all refined sugars and wheat from my diet)...and then the weight loss will eventually appear, as it did this morning (see my other post today)!

I dearly wish I could say that decreased pain was one of the Non Scale Victories I have experienced but it still hasn't dropped below 8/10 since I discontinued opiates in February (8/10 is quite unbearable, particularly since there is absolutely no respite from it, however brief.) But I could still tell my body was responding happily to all of the new, clean, whole foods I'm feeding it now, so it was easier to remain persistent with this new WOE. I do think that continued persistence with keto and intermittent fasting will be able to pull the pain level down at least a notch or two eventually and I will be overjoyed if, though good nutrition and gradual weight loss, I can just get it to average no more than 5/10 -- a level that doesn't threaten and frighten me so badly since I can manage it quite nicely with my alternative med that doesn't poison my organs like opiates do. I have already decided that, regardless of the number on the scales, if keto and intermittent fasting helps me achieve an average of 5/10, I am going to celebrate THAT Non Scale Victory with the biggest party I've ever thrown! And sugar and wheat won't get invitations.

@Retrofit55 .... Crossing my fingers you can acheive this Non Scale Victory. I can't imagine being at that level of pain constantly. Just went through some issues recently which resulted in surgery where I was at that level of pain for a few weeks and it was not at all something I felt like I could have done for a long time that's for sure. I feel for you!

Momma_Raucks

Retrofit55 wrote: »

[quote=" It's kinda like when, in the movie Scarface, Al Pacino said "First you get the money, then you get the power and then you get the woman.” The sequence is everything! First you get your nutrition straightened out (for me, this meant keto and eliminating all refined sugars and wheat from my diet)...and then the weight loss will eventually appear

This is awesome!!! Thank you

Retrofit55

swezeytba wrote: »

Retrofit55 wrote: »

canadjineh wrote: »

Hi @Retrofit55 your body may not drop weight at first. It may work on the more important job of healing some of your other health issues. You may notice more Non Scale Victories like lessened pain or better rest etc. Keep an eye out for those things as they are also things to celebrate!

You know, canadjinah, I've come to think those Non Scale Victories are MORE important than any change we see on the scales. After all, ANYONE can lose dozens of pounds on the scales -- many or most of us have already lost hundreds of pounds over the decades with repeated, stupid, severe calorie-restricting diets...only to damage our health and then regain the weight later. But I'm sold on this WOE because the entire approach is different. It's kinda like when, in the movie Scarface, Al Pacino said "First you get the money, then you get the power and then you get the woman.” The sequence is everything! First you get your nutrition straightened out (for me, this meant keto and eliminating all refined sugars and wheat from my diet)...and then the weight loss will eventually appear, as it did this morning (see my other post today)!

I dearly wish I could say that decreased pain was one of the Non Scale Victories I have experienced but it still hasn't dropped below 8/10 since I discontinued opiates in February (8/10 is quite unbearable, particularly since there is absolutely no respite from it, however brief.) But I could still tell my body was responding happily to all of the new, clean, whole foods I'm feeding it now, so it was easier to remain persistent with this new WOE. I do think that continued persistence with keto and intermittent fasting will be able to pull the pain level down at least a notch or two eventually and I will be overjoyed if, though good nutrition and gradual weight loss, I can just get it to average no more than 5/10 -- a level that doesn't threaten and frighten me so badly since I can manage it quite nicely with my alternative med that doesn't poison my organs like opiates do. I have already decided that, regardless of the number on the scales, if keto and intermittent fasting helps me achieve an average of 5/10, I am going to celebrate THAT Non Scale Victory with the biggest party I've ever thrown! And sugar and wheat won't get invitations.

@Retrofit55 .... Crossing my fingers you can acheive this Non Scale Victory. I can't imagine being at that level of pain constantly. Just went through some issues recently which resulted in surgery where I was at that level of pain for a few weeks and it was not at all something I felt like I could have done for a long time that's for sure. I feel for you!

Thank you for caring, swezeytba. Tears in my eyes with gratitude for your touching words.

canadjineh

I was dx'd with fibromyalgia 7 years ago now so I do understand about the pain levels thing, @Retrofit55. I was listening to a pain specialist podcast about a week ago and he said something quite interesting that resonated with me. He said that we (docs) need to get away from the pain scale and focusing on just getting the number down, and need to focus more on function and well-being in patients. 'Do our modalities help them become more functional and enjoy their life despite the pain level they may be in?' It was not to minimize what pain does to us, but to focus on another level of 'well-being' besides that one measurement. Also it wasn't to disavow the role of pain-killing drugs in those that need them, but to give another way of approaching life. It's been a helpful way of thinking for me... even on my bad pain days I look at what I can enjoy still and also take an overall look at what has improved over the past few years for me, even though I still get some debilitating pain.

Retrofit55

I'm so sorry to hear that you are struggling with fibromyalgia too, canadjineh. I hesitate to go "off topic" here, discussing pain issues rather than issues directly related to keto, but--in truth--it was the pain and mobility problems that propelled me to try keto out of sheer desperation.

In my experience, almost none of the primary care providers I have seen over the years, and certainly none during this toxic statin reaction, have taken the approach described by the podcast specialist you mentioned. To compound matters, since I had a pre-existing diagnosis of fibromyalgia, they smugly dismissed the abrupt onset, violent "super-pain" and profound neuromuscular problems as merely "chronic pain...which we do not treat." (Ditto for ERs.) I was left medically stranded, much too weak, ill and disoriented to properly advocate for myself, and unaided by ANY meaningful medical intervention while immobilized by the motor dysfunction and being cooked alive, shredded inside out, by this mysterious grenade that was exploding inside my body for some unknown reason, trying to kill me (and which nearly did, many, many times) for EIGHT solid months. It still infuriates me that -- as I eventually figured out -- my (now former) primary care doc was lazily discounting the new medical problems as "just a fibromyalgia flare" and so neglected, to my immense harm, to take a simple, proper H&P -- which would have promptly revealed the direct association between the new statin cholesterol med prescription and the abrupt onset super-pain and neuromuscular devastation. Which meant that, until a specialist caught it later, I cluelessly continued (!) to take the statin even while it was destroying this body and eventually triggering premature ventricular contractions that landed me in a cardiac care unit. Even the CCU didn't catch it: they gave me my tablet of Crestor every day I was there. Our traditional medical community has a deplorable approach to pain management (Pain: ignore it and maybe it--or, at least, this hysterical patient--will go away.) In the process, they consistently miss important opportunities to manage the pain in other (non-opiate) ways, and so unilaterally forfeit their ill and suffering patients' best chances for wellness.

What this means for keto/intermittent fasting folks reading this now -- whether or not you suffer from any pain issues -- is GOOD FOR YOU! I am so happy for all of you!! You are proactively taking steps to maintain healthy cholesterol levels through excellent nutrition, thereby easily and completely eliminating your risk of such statin-induced neuromuscular catastrophes and associated psychological trauma (months of unrelieved 9/10 and 10/10 is SO freaking mind-bending). Keep up the good work! You are indeed saving your own body, life and sanity.