Jason Fung is a quack
x3nomorph
Posts: 174 Member
the guy says you can eat 10 000 cals and NOT gain weight, you will just burn it out magically
also says if you restrict calories, you eventually will gain weight because your body will restrict calorie expenditure to the point you will gain weight, has he ever heard of something called BMR?
these pearls of wisdom start around the 12 min mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpllomiDMX0
basic fact of human physiology is that the primary fuel of the body is glucose
glucose+oxygen=ATP+C02+H20
also says if you restrict calories, you eventually will gain weight because your body will restrict calorie expenditure to the point you will gain weight, has he ever heard of something called BMR?
these pearls of wisdom start around the 12 min mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpllomiDMX0basic fact of human physiology is that the primary fuel of the body is glucose
glucose+oxygen=ATP+C02+H20
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Gluconeogenesis is only about 57% efficient from what I've read so if that is true, it will take more calories to cover BMR expenditure in a fasted state or eating LC than it would with a glucose drip. I think the equation is more like:
CI *efficiency of digestion - CO(due to energy demands) - CO(due to other factors) = fat loss.
Cal in the mouth isn't the same as cals available for fat storage. I don't think he is a quack.
The body can also burn ketones from fat metabolism.
His point is chronic calorie deficits will drive your BMR down to where it is about impossible to not overeat.
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you are using one tiny aspect of the whole, and making a generalization, the reality is fat, carb and aminoacid metabolism is all happening simultaneously at high speed in the body, either catabolic or anabolic processes all at the same time, yes they are times when in a certain metabolic environment, some processes may be favored over others but is all a continuum
using your example, the relative energy inefficiency on catabolic breakdown of amino acids via gluconeogenesis is negated by the fat load your animal protein comes with, since the calorie payload of 9 cal/gram in fat is higher the 4 calories per gram in carb/prot
this guy Fung is an idiot, just because he passed through medical school doesn't give him a pass
source: I did 3 years of med school and let me tell you, I saw a fair share of simple minded memorizing monkeys in that time-1 -
edit: just finished the second half of the hour on the video, it is like a bad stand up comedy routine , like he is trying to mock the audience by misleading them with all wrong conclusions
the thing is that many people need to understand , that metabolic pathways/physiological processes/feeding behaviors etc etc etc in the body DO NOT occur in a vacuum, they are EXPLAINED in a vacuum to a certain extend so we can understand them, but you cant miss the forest for the trees man
just one example
in a philosophical sense when I say "my body" is not even only my human body, there are trillions of bacteria blanketing our bodies, yes alien(as in not human) dna microorganisms which has been called the microbiome, they actively interact with us, and we are only starting to try to understand how this dynamics works, and how they can influence our health, so for this guy Fung to come and say "muh insulin" you gotta laugh to not cry your eyes out haha0 -
you are using one tiny aspect of the whole, and making a generalization, the reality is fat, carb and aminoacid metabolism is all happening simultaneously at high speed in the body, either catabolic or anabolic processes all at the same time, yes they are times when in a certain metabolic environment, some processes may be favored over others but is all a continuum
using your example, the relative energy inefficiency on catabolic breakdown of amino acids via gluconeogenesis is negated by the fat load your animal protein comes with, since the calorie payload of 9 cal/gram in fat is higher the 4 calories per gram in carb/prot
this guy Fung is an idiot, just because he passed through medical school doesn't give him a pass
source: I did 3 years of med school and let me tell you, I saw a fair share of simple minded memorizing monkeys in that time
I'm not talking about eating grams of this or that. I talked about caloric intake and what happens to it. So there isn't any negating fat metabolism due to higher calorie density since I was talking in caloric terms. I talked about the efficiency of metabolizing the different macros and the efficiencies are all different and are dependent on the state of the system (fasted or not etc). The pathway to store extra fat and then turn it back into glucose is very inefficient I'm sure.
I've read Fung's book "The Obesity Code" and although I did think some of his reasoning was weak on how he drew his conclusions, I do think that his conclusions were mostly right. Maybe he doesn't present well but what do yo think of his conclusions?
What conclusions exactly do you not agree with him about? BMR is a moving target I'm sure! Do you not agree with that? I don't think a person can eat 10k cals on a consistant basis and not gain weight but I do believe CI the mouth can be greater than TDEE and we can lose weight due to CI not being the same as cals available for fat synthesis.1 -
conclusions I don't agree with? basically everything he says on the video, but the jist of it is
1. calories in and out don't matter, he says the body acts as a thermostat and will burn excess calories, this is wrong you eat enough calories and go over your calorie needs and you will get fat
2. high insulin drives obesity, again wrong you can lose massive weight eating insulinogenic foods, see Walter Kempner diet of white white rice, table sugar and fruit juice fruit since the 1940's his patients lost massive weight and reversed a host of diseases
here is a video of Dr Greger explaining how ectopic accumulation of fat and its toxicity is actually what drive the insulin up in a permanent way(insulin resistance) has nothing to do with eating insulinogenic foods, since if you have good insulin sensitivity , after a meal the glucose will get shuttled in the muscle so it will come back down in blood and in turn lower the insulin in blood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAweyqtb7D8 -1 -
I've lost 130 pounds in 270 days using intermittent fasting. According to caloric deficit theory that means I've ran an average daily deficit of 1,685 calories. lol yeah right.
If the calorie equation theory of weight was any good there would be ample evidence that it works in the long run. There is only evidence to the contrary however.
Fungs main argument is that fasting is the key to weight loss, and everything he claims is backed up with facts.3 -
Following Dr Fung's principles, my husband is no longer a diabetic, has lost 75 pounds and is no longer in need of medication for cholesterol and high blood pressure! Dr Fung, carry on with the good work!3
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Anyone who drinks two cans of coke per day, according to calorie theory all you have to do is switch to diet coke and one year later you will have lost 29 pounds doing nothing else.
Giving up the fructose is a great idea, but if you keep eating all day long you're not going to lose.1 -
pacific904 wrote: »Following Dr Fung's principles, my husband is no longer a diabetic, has lost 75 pounds and is no longer in need of medication for cholesterol and high blood pressure! Dr Fung, carry on with the good work!
good for him that he lost the weight,still there is more to health than just losing weight, look at Bob Harper the trainer guy from the Biggest Loser show, great lean body, muscular, looking great for his age and...following a Paleo low carb diet , ended up with a massive heart attack, nearly lost his life
if you are clogging your arteries with animal foods it will catch up with you, if you are lean or lose a lot of weight you will tackle your insulin resistance since toxic fat in the muscle will go down, still you will be slowly killing yourself if you indulge of a lot of animal products which is basically empty calories, pro inflammatory and disease promoting foods2 -
He got his health back - pay attention - he is off all medication!. Why the vendetta against Dr Fung?1
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I suggest you all stop engaging with the OP. He/She is bored with life and trolling. Not worth your time or energy.5
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look at Bob Harper the trainer guy from the Biggest Loser show, great lean body, muscular, looking great for his age and...following a Paleo low carb diet , ended up with a massive heart attack, nearly lost his life
if you are clogging your arteries with animal foods it will catch up with you, if you are lean or lose a lot of weight you will tackle your insulin resistance since toxic fat in the muscle will go down, still you will be slowly killing yourself if you indulge of a lot of animal products which is basically empty calories, pro inflammatory and disease promoting foods
I do not know anything about Dr. Fung, but I am addressing the comment you made above and would like to state that correlation does not imply causation. If we start using arguments like that to prove this way of eating over that, well, we'd have to look at Steve Jobs the exact same way and he was a vegan. Unlike Bob, he died, of cancer of course, but of a disease nonetheless. So what now? Whose diet was healthier? Bob or Steve's?
I've read The China Study and I am a huge fan of Forks Over Knives. I've read tons of success stories about people coming off their meds, keeping weight off, having lower cholesterol, etc, by eating HEALTHY vegetarian and vegan diets. However, I've also read the same for those eating LCHF diets, Weight Watchers, and many other programs, many of which have no limits on any kind of food, even junk food. I prefer to be in somewhere in the middle and that is to eat mostly whole foods, whether with meat or without meat, and avoid overly processed foods with added sugars and carbs, and count my calories.
I was doing intermittent fasting before OMAD and never even heard of Dr. Fung until now. To be honest, I'm not that interested. Just doing my own "thang" over here. :-)0 -
HestiaMoon1 wrote: »I suggest you all stop engaging with the OP. He/She is bored with life and trolling. Not worth your time or energy.
But it's so fun0 -
worst than empty calories, pretty much toxic garbage when you factor in the cocktail of antibiotics and assorted drugs animals are fed in the factory farms
https://www.drweil.com/diet-nutrition/food-safety/antibiotics-and-arsenic-in-chickens/
the World Health Organization, pretty much has red meat classified as a class I carcinogenic, same as cigarettes asbestos etc, we are past the point of arguing if they are a health hazard or not, old news by now2 -
worst than empty calories, pretty much toxic garbage when you factor in the cocktail of antibiotics and assorted drugs animals are fed in the factory farms
https://www.drweil.com/diet-nutrition/food-safety/antibiotics-and-arsenic-in-chickens/
the World Health Organization, pretty much has red meat classified as a class I carcinogenic, same as cigarettes asbestos etc, we are past the point of arguing if they are a health hazard or not, old news by now
This whole thread makes me giggle. Are you going to stop breathing air? There's tons of crap in the air too! GOD FORBID :P
It's ok OP, whatever makes you feel better
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wsandy8512 wrote: »look at Bob Harper the trainer guy from the Biggest Loser show, great lean body, muscular, looking great for his age and...following a Paleo low carb diet , ended up with a massive heart attack, nearly lost his life
if you are clogging your arteries with animal foods it will catch up with you, if you are lean or lose a lot of weight you will tackle your insulin resistance since toxic fat in the muscle will go down, still you will be slowly killing yourself if you indulge of a lot of animal products which is basically empty calories, pro inflammatory and disease promoting foods
I do not know anything about Dr. Fung, but I am addressing the comment you made above and would like to state that correlation does not imply causation. If we start using arguments like that to prove this way of eating over that, well, we'd have to look at Steve Jobs the exact same way and he was a vegan. Unlike Bob, he died, of cancer of course, but of a disease nonetheless. So what now? Whose diet was healthier? Bob or Steve's?
I've read The China Study and I am a huge fan of Forks Over Knives. I've read tons of success stories about people coming off their meds, keeping weight off, having lower cholesterol, etc, by eating HEALTHY vegetarian and vegan diets. However, I've also read the same for those eating LCHF diets, Weight Watchers, and many other programs, many of which have no limits on any kind of food, even junk food. I prefer to be in somewhere in the middle and that is to eat mostly whole foods, whether with meat or without meat, and avoid overly processed foods with added sugars and carbs, and count my calories.
I was doing intermittent fasting before OMAD and never even heard of Dr. Fung until now. To be honest, I'm not that interested. Just doing my own "thang" over here. :-)
including plant whole foods in your diet is a step in the right direction, if you read the China study and watched Fork over Knives you got the info, you made the decision to do what you think is best for you, I got no problem with that, tbh you can still eat animal foods sparingly and be in good health like folks in the traditional Okinawan diet
what diet is best or worst can't be judged in absolute terms, it depends what we are comparing it to1 -
conclusions I don't agree with? basically everything he says on the video, but the jist of it is
1. calories in and out don't matter, he says the body acts as a thermostat and will burn excess calories, this is wrong you eat enough calories and go over your calorie needs and you will get fat
2. high insulin drives obesity, again wrong you can lose massive weight eating insulinogenic foods, see Walter Kempner diet of white white rice, table sugar and fruit juice fruit since the 1940's his patients lost massive weight and reversed a host of diseases
here is a video of Dr Greger explaining how ectopic accumulation of fat and its toxicity is actually what drive the insulin up in a permanent way(insulin resistance) has nothing to do with eating insulinogenic foods, since if you have good insulin sensitivity , after a meal the glucose will get shuttled in the muscle so it will come back down in blood and in turn lower the insulin in bloodhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAweyqtb7D8
It does seem to me that some folks have a set point. I went for several years as as a teenager and in my early 20's trying to gain weight. I would actually force feed myself when not hungry and I could not gain weight (6'1", 155-160 lbs over about 8 years). I was as thin as you can get basically. Wasn't a controlled experiment but whether I ate as I felt or forced it down me, my weight stayed about the same.
Not sure about your points in #2 but I will agree that a lot of animal stuff i think isn't good for a person. I'm convinced though that fasting will reverse insulin resistance in a lot of people. OMAD isn't LC. I don't prescribe to a LC diet that has HF and doesn't allow fruit, whole grains, legumes, milk, etc. It may be necessary for some (diabetics and some other maladies) and can be a good tool for losing weight but I don't think it is the way to go long term if you don't have medical conditions.
What do you think of fasting?0 -
It does seem to me that some folks have a set point. I went for several years as as a teenager and in my early 20's trying to gain weight. I would actually force feed myself when not hungry and I could not gain weight (6'1", 155-160 lbs over about 8 years). I was as thin as you can get basically. Wasn't a controlled experiment but whether I ate as I felt or forced it down me, my weight stayed about the same.
Not sure about your points in #2 but I will agree that a lot of animal stuff i think isn't good for a person. I'm convinced though that fasting will reverse insulin resistance in a lot of people. OMAD isn't LC. I don't prescribe to a LC diet that has HF and doesn't allow fruit, whole grains, legumes, milk, etc. It may be necessary for some (diabetics and some other maladies) and can be a good tool for losing weight but I don't think it is the way to go long term if you don't have medical conditions.
What do you think of fasting?
I can relate about your experience as a teenager not only trying to gain weight but just maintaining weight, I was a competitive swimmer as a kid, and it was a struggle eating everything in sight and my trainer was like"you need to eat more" it turns out is seems there's no set point is just a simple balance of what are you eating , your activity level and your genetics, humans are a fairly homogeneous species genetic wise(relative to other apes) so it basically comes down to what goes in your mouth and what you put out activity wise
here is a clip of Dr Douglas Lisle touching on the subject of set point and how to deal with plateaus, I consider him a very smart man and you can take most of what he says to the bank
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhBJ0R2xAp4
about fasting I'm totally on board, this guy Dr Lisle he is part of the team in a clinic out west in Cali, True North Health when they water fast people for weeks at a time ,40 plus days sometimes
so yeah fasting is magic haha
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I still think there may be such a think as a set point. I'm not sure but I weighed the same whether I worked out or not (I'm sure I did eat more working out but maybe not that much more, I don't know).
Not sure if your being sarcastic or what with the fasting is magic comment. I don't think it is magic but I do think there are benefits more than just causing a calorie deficit. I think it does help with insulin resistance which I think helps to keep people from putting on fat an helps them to lose fat. I also think that when fasting, the body is forced to use fat for gluconeogenesis for a long period of time which is an inefficient way to supply energy to the body so more calories are used as compared to say having a glucose drip to supply energy (taking that to the extreme). Like you said earlier. Every think is a continuum and to understand the dynamics of the body it should really be looked at at each instance in time and what is going on. Rate limits, saturation limits etc play a big role when looking at things instantaneously instead of trying to understand things over a 24 hour period as a whole.1 -
no I was serious about how great fasting is, sorry english is not my native language, so some stuff may get lost in translation with my botched grammar
I agree with most of what you said in your last post, I think is human nature to get entangled with the details of the process, trying to understand everything and we can miss the big picture
I think one important thing, a very important thing actually , is that whatever dietary intervention you are going to do to restore health/lose weight, it has to get to a point where you are smooth sailing, sort of effortless(long term), you have to find a way to go through your day, not being hungry and truly enjoying your meals
I mean some sort of struggle at the very beginning is expected obviously, but if as the weeks pass by and you are still feeling deprived, thinking about food all the time, HUNGRY, going through bouts of binges every now and then,
you may want to go back to the drawing board because if you continue the same trajectory you are going to fail, you cant beat hunger/feelings of deprivation long term...0 -
I'm at a point where I don't get that hungry and I don't think of food much and I can eat tell satisfied and stay at the same weight (very slow at losing though). I can only be this way with exercise also. If I eat to satiety for 2 or more meals, I will gain weight if I'm not exercising. If I only do one meal, I will lose whether I exercise or not.
To be young again! I was always hungry then and ate all I wanted and then some and could not gain weight. My metabolism must have been very high. If I didn't exercise, still the same thing. Age 16, 6/1", 145lbs says my drivers license that I still have.
Jason Fung is a big fasting advocate!0 -
He lost me when he said, "It's the insulin, stupid". I think he should more clearly acknowledge that it's the insulin RESISTANCE that is a problem.0
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He lost me when he said, "It's the insulin, stupid". I think he should more clearly acknowledge that it's the insulin RESISTANCE that is a problem.
The only reason that insulin resistance is a problem is it leads to high insulin levels which are the problem. I think he is correct.1 -
I think Fung is quite clear about it when he says excessive insulin causes insulin resistance.
Of course the excess insulin is caused by too frequently eating the wrong kinds of foods which eventually causes cells to become resistant.0 -
insulin resistance is caused by excess saturated fat in places it shouldn't be (liver, muscle etc), when you gain weight by eating excess calories the fat spills over to these places and becomes toxic
I wish Dr Fung put his theory to the test and eat 10 000 calories a day of pure lard that way he can remain in ketosis so we can watch in real time his body blow up and become morbidly obese
the ultimate insulinogenic food diet(white rice +table sugar+fruit) reversing kidney, heart failure, and morbid obesity
isn't Dr Fung a kidney doc? he should know better haha
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQb5Fe6hZXw&t=89s 1 -
My own experience, after 15 years of low carb (less than 25g carbs), is that my hba1c kept climbing to 5.8 weight crept on. Switched to HCLF & weight dropped along with hba1c. My insulin had to be really high then. Ate lots of potatoes. But all markers are better. I would agree that fat in the cells is the problem. Lots of theories about how that happens, but high insulin without that confounder doesn't appear to be a problem. All the WFPB docs say the same.0
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