do cheat your way to hit daily protein target?
Adi4Fitness
Posts: 97 Member
i find it hard consuming huge quantities of meat .... so i figured why not 2 scoops of chocolate whey protein with a meal then bamm close to 80 grams of protein in a meal.
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Whey protein is a good source of protein, if it isn't loaded up with sugars. Why would that be considered a cheat? It is just eating protein.1
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Generally no, but my diet is primarily meat so it's not an issue here. For a while I was adding powdered collagen to my breakfast soup which also increases the protein. Since it didn't alter the texture or taste at all, it might be something you can look into doing.0
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I tend to be over my protein goal even without supplementing, but I wouldn't consider whey a cheat. (80 per meal seems pretty high anyway -- I also couldn't eat that much meat -- but maybe you only eat 1-2 meals? My goal is around 100 g of protein total, and I eat 3, so it's easy.)3
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I'm not sure if you are trying to be keto, but 80g is more than enough to kick you out of ketosis if yes. Excess protein is converted to glucose. If not used within a short period of time, then that glucose converts to fat. The only reason excess protein (more than 20g-30g at 1 sitting / during 1 hr. time period) is better than net carbs is because it is inefficient in conversion to glucose. Net carbs are about 100% conversion and excess protein converts at about 58%.
ETA: Also, whey is one of the fastest proteins to digest and that increases how much gets converted to glucose.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm not sure if you are trying to be keto, but 80g is more than enough to kick you out of ketosis if yes. Excess protein is converted to glucose. If not used within a short period of time, then that glucose converts to fat. The only reason excess protein (more than 20g-30g at 1 sitting / during 1 hr. time period) is better than net carbs is because it is inefficient in conversion to glucose. Net carbs are about 100% conversion and excess protein converts at about 58%.
ETA: Also, whey is one of the fastest proteins to digest and that increases how much gets converted to glucose.
Glucogenesis , works only when in caloric surplus right? I eat at defit of 600 calories. I also intermittent fast 16/8.0 -
Adi4Fitness wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm not sure if you are trying to be keto, but 80g is more than enough to kick you out of ketosis if yes. Excess protein is converted to glucose. If not used within a short period of time, then that glucose converts to fat. The only reason excess protein (more than 20g-30g at 1 sitting / during 1 hr. time period) is better than net carbs is because it is inefficient in conversion to glucose. Net carbs are about 100% conversion and excess protein converts at about 58%.
ETA: Also, whey is one of the fastest proteins to digest and that increases how much gets converted to glucose.
Glucogenesis , works only when in caloric surplus right? I eat at defit of 600 calories. I also intermittent fast 16/8.
No, gluconeogenesis does not require a calorie surplus. In fact, it is probably more likely to occur in a deficit since it is demand driven.
ETA: Though I'm not sure that GNG from dietary protein is demand driven.... just from body protein / muscle. As a type 1 diabetic, I'm always watching BG and can tell you from personal observation that a high amount of whey protein causes an increase in blood glucose.1 -
Eggs, cheese and nuts are also decent sources of protein. What you might also consider doing when you do use protein powders is to use a combination of say (1) Whey protein, (2) Pea protein; and (3) Casein (if you are okay with Casein as some people choose not to ingest it) because each type of protein is metabolized at different rates so using a combination of protein powders can actually keep you satiated for longer periods of time. I don't mind eating meat myself, but I find I go through these cycles and periods where I just get sick of eating meat to the point where I just can't make myself eat much of it and when that happens to me, I do resort to and rely on protein powder which I often add or hide in things I cook and bake. lol1
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I wouldn't worry about GNG. Especially if you don't specifically test your own personal response to it. Unless you're keto for neurological issues or cancer or something, you don't need to be concerned about if it would prevent ketosis, which it very well may not.
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html?m=1
https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-can-i-eat-in-one-sitting/
And there was also a recent thread here with a great article by Marty Kendall about protein and GNG that @RalfLott posted.5 -
Adi4Fitness wrote: »i find it hard consuming huge quantities of meat .... so i figured why not 2 scoops of chocolate whey protein with a meal then bamm close to 80 grams of protein in a meal.
What is your protein goal and what do you consider "huge amounts of meat"?1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I wouldn't worry about GNG. Especially if you don't specifically test your own personal response to it. Unless you're keto for neurological issues or cancer or something, you don't need to be concerned about if it would prevent ketosis, which it very well may not.
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html?m=1
https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-can-i-eat-in-one-sitting/
And there was also a recent thread here with a great article by Marty Kendall about protein and GNG that @RalfLott posted.
Well tried it today...for days i was full eating lunch or a couple of bites at my dinner at work a double quarter pounder with cheese sandwich. Today i had 85 gramz of protein in my lunch which included a protein shake. And by dinner time i was still hungry after eating that sandwitch which felt like a slice of bread . I totaled at 133 grams of protein. I think with my lean body mass of 141 pounds id need at max 0.8 of it making it 112 gramz of protein.
Im hoping my interment fasting can put me back into ketosis.. its a pain to deal with hunger on IF0 -
Here's an interesting video arguing that muscle retention and ketosis are perfectly compatible. Also covered are insulin & BCAAs. (Notes have cites to studies.)
https://youtu.be/SJOlP1MbN3k
@midwesterner85
@Sunny_Bunny_
@cstehansen
@ladipoet
@Dragonwolf
@lemurcat126 -
I am pretty good about checking glucose levels. I am doing the low carb really for regulation of glucose as a T2D. The weight loss is a benefit, but even if I were not losing, I would still be doing low carb for the BG readings. I was paranoid about protein raising glucose levels and tried to keep at about 40(ish) g of protein for each of three meals a day. My goal is 125. I seem to have discovered for me that protein does not have much short term impact on BG. It may have a small (good) impact on fasting glucose the morning after a supper of 50 or 60 g of protein as compared to 40, but that may be my imagination too. It does not seem to be problematic anyway.
My take is that much of the blood glucose and response to various things is very dependent on the individual. You don't really know unless you are checking ketones or glucose or something.3 -
Interesting video as usual @RalfLott! Glad I don't go out of my way to consume BCAA's (never have).
Really intersting video!
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it through.... BCAAs are ketogenic amino acids but are more likely to kick you out of ketosis if you have too many because they raise insulin, which would lower glucose.... Yet they are the amino acids that do not catabolize muscles...
Catabolizing muscles = bad. Lowered BG = good. Higher insulin = bad or good depending on needs and health. But muscle peservation = good. ????
I'm confused. Now I need to read more. Down the rabbit hole I go.1 -
So if you are consumimg mostly ketogenic amino acids, does the body use triglyceride back bones for glucose then? Or does it use/catabolize your muscles more?
Must read more....0 -
With the strong representation in the forum regarding "Oh don't worry about too much protein intake and GNG", I might suggest those who are interested and concerned AND ARE NOT doing their own N=1 experimentation, should take a look at the studies or listen to podcasts and videos of experts who represent the other side of the debate. A starting point might be Dr. Dom D'Agostino. A great deal of info is available via the internet.
While his research tends to be related to ketogenic diets as related to medical issues such as cancer, epilepsy, BG etc I began listening to him regarding his research for the US Dept. of Navy as related to seizures experienced by deep sea divers (and only because my favorite Uncle was a Master Chief Diver with the US Navy many years ago). Dr. Agostino's research is quite diverse.
For the record: I am aware of perceived differences/need for compliance regarding Ketosis for weight loss and ketosis for other medical issues. For many reading this forum ketosis for obesity or morbid obesity could be a medical issue and not just a desire to lose a few pounds. Also, I am currently not eating a ketogenic diet but when I was it was "Medically Therapeutic" so there lies my personal research of exploring "the other side" of the "too much protein" debate as well as what is presented so frequently in the forum given protein intake in the diets I looked at, was limited.2 -
This is interesting...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/With the strong representation in the forum regarding "Oh don't worry about too much protein intake and GNG", I might suggest those who are interested and concerned AND ARE NOT doing their own N=1 experimentation, should take a look at the studies or listen to podcasts and videos of experts who represent the other side of the debate. A starting point might be Dr. Dom D'Agostino. A great deal of info is available via the internet.
While his research tends to be related to ketogenic diets as related to medical issues such as cancer, epilepsy, BG etc I began listening to him regarding his research for the US Dept. of Navy as related to seizures experienced by deep sea divers (and only because my favorite Uncle was a Master Chief Diver with the US Navy many years ago). Dr. Agostino's research is quite diverse.
For the record: I am aware of perceived differences/need for compliance regarding Ketosis for weight loss and ketosis for other medical issues. For many reading this forum ketosis for obesity or morbid obesity could be a medical issue and not just a desire to lose a few pounds. Also, I am currently not eating a ketogenic diet but when I was it was "Medically Therapeutic" so there lies my personal research of exploring "the other side" of the "too much protein" debate as well as what is presented so frequently in the forum given protein intake in the diets I looked at, was limited.
I keep confusing myself with my n=1. I like ketosis for how it makes me feel, the ease of weight loss and low BG during the day. I used to take a protein powder in my coffee because I had a tough time with meeting my protein macro. Once I stopped losing I cut it as a possible insulin elevator, extra source of calories, and because my fasting BG was going up again.
Now I started usin it again because whey powder IS insulogenic and I can't figure out any other way to lower my fasting BG without fasting half the week or taking metformin... And to top it off I can't even figure out if high fasting BG is even a bad thing when I am on a sub 10g carb diet.
BUT it does help me chea and get protein up to where most people say it should be. Above minimum needs. Or the minimum needs that the typical, sugar-burner would need.
So confused. I need more research but I also need someone to dumb it all down for me. LOL
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With the strong representation in the forum regarding "Oh don't worry about too much protein intake and GNG", I might suggest those who are interested and concerned AND ARE NOT doing their own N=1 experimentation, should take a look at the studies or listen to podcasts and videos of experts who represent the other side of the debate. A starting point might be Dr. Dom D'Agostino. A great deal of info is available via the internet.
While his research tends to be related to ketogenic diets as related to medical issues such as cancer, epilepsy, BG etc I began listening to him regarding his research for the US Dept. of Navy as related to seizures experienced by deep sea divers (and only because my favorite Uncle was a Master Chief Diver with the US Navy many years ago). Dr. Agostino's research is quite diverse.
For the record: I am aware of perceived differences/need for compliance regarding Ketosis for weight loss and ketosis for other medical issues. For many reading this forum ketosis for obesity or morbid obesity could be a medical issue and not just a desire to lose a few pounds. Also, I am currently not eating a ketogenic diet but when I was it was "Medically Therapeutic" so there lies my personal research of exploring "the other side" of the "too much protein" debate as well as what is presented so frequently in the forum given protein intake in the diets I looked at, was limited.
Yes. It really is best to try things out for oneself. Even as much of a protein advocate as I am, I fully respect individual experiences.
Personal experiences that seem to conflict with known science don't necessarily disprove the science there just may be more to the story.
But as far as the protein argument goes for nothing more than a weight loss keto diet, I can't be convinced it makes any sense to ever limit it. Ketone levels aren't what creates the fat loss so it doesn't even make any difference to a fat loss goal even if protein did reduce them.3 -
With the strong representation in the forum regarding "Oh don't worry about too much protein intake and GNG", I might suggest those who are interested and concerned AND ARE NOT doing their own N=1 experimentation, should take a look at the studies or listen to podcasts and videos of experts who represent the other side of the debate. A starting point might be Dr. Dom D'Agostino. A great deal of info is available via the internet.
While his research tends to be related to ketogenic diets as related to medical issues such as cancer, epilepsy, BG etc I began listening to him regarding his research for the US Dept. of Navy as related to seizures experienced by deep sea divers (and only because my favorite Uncle was a Master Chief Diver with the US Navy many years ago). Dr. Agostino's research is quite diverse.
For the record: I am aware of perceived differences/need for compliance regarding Ketosis for weight loss and ketosis for other medical issues. For many reading this forum ketosis for obesity or morbid obesity could be a medical issue and not just a desire to lose a few pounds. Also, I am currently not eating a ketogenic diet but when I was it was "Medically Therapeutic" so there lies my personal research of exploring "the other side" of the "too much protein" debate as well as what is presented so frequently in the forum given protein intake in the diets I looked at, was limited.
I think there's a fair bit of misunderstanding regarding protein intake and how it affects ketosis.
Protein affects ketosis primarily through it being insulinogenic. That is, protein consumption prompts a release of insulin. This happens because of the protein itself, not GNG.
Ketone production is regulated by insulin, the same way glucose is. More insulin means reduced ketone production. Reduced ketone production (with no decrease in energy expenditure) means lower readings. Lower ketone readings do not necessarily mean GNG is going on.2 -
Just saw this -- great video!0
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Dragonwolf wrote: »Protein affects ketosis primarily through it being insulinogenic. That is, protein consumption prompts a release of insulin. This happens because of the protein itself, not GNG.
This is an oft-overlooked distinction!!
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Dragonwolf wrote: »Protein affects ketosis primarily through it being insulinogenic. That is, protein consumption prompts a release of insulin. This happens because of the protein itself, not GNG.
This is an oft-overlooked distinction!!
Right! And it's because insulin is required for amino acid uptake and you WANT that. That's not to be avoided.
RD Dikeman (Type1 Grit / Dr Bernstein)would say... and he has because that's who made this meme
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I think it's important to keep in mind that personalized medicine is all about acknowledging that we're all different. From my understanding, making blanket statements about protein intake is ignoring the fact that the body's ability to recycle protein, aka. "protein turnover"...is HIGHLY individual. F.ex. I think this ties to people who are trying to build muscle fibres needs more amino acids. But very sedentary people has less demand for tissue repairs. Making a cheap point: The protein need for a young bro at the gym is NOT the same as an old hen like me
I think this also explains at least some of the anecdotes about people reporting they can thrive on total carnivore lifestyle. Just like some people can tolerate insane amounts of carbs without seeming ill effects....it would be logic that minorities of gen pop need more of either protein or fat to feel well and keep appetite at bay. Myself, I need proteins to feel full. I can eat an astonishing amount of fat before it registers in the tummy. Maybe it's the incretin effect that Dr Fung talks about in his book, I don't know.
Another point is that overconsuming proteins beyond what your body actually needs is probably not a good idea for long-term health reasons due to chronic high levels of insulin and igf-1. This can possibly be somehow mitigated by IF eating windows though. But the main takeaway is...if one chooses to eat very high protein levels or high volume of food in general, one should make sure to mitigate the flux of energy with physical activity. Overdoing whey shakes as a sedentary, may do more harm than good. It's weight bearing activity that retains or builds muscle mass. I might be wrong but: drinking protein shakes alone will not stop sarcopenia, instead you skyrocket insulin.
Think about it: When you're overwhelmed or get overrun with too many job tasks or responsibility at work. How do you feel? You get erratic and do things haphazardly. Or for us untidy people. When forced to clear because of guests, I tend to be left with some stuff I don't know where to put, shove it into a bag and toss it into a closet. It works on the surface, but it's not a solution to my problem. Then, think about how your body feels if you keep shovelling down food it doesn't need or want. Maybe the body gets overwhelmed too? Maybe it also chooses short-term solutions at the expense of outcomes you actually want such as lipolysis? (mobilizing fat for energy production).
It's all about a balance of opposing goals: look youthful with explosive muscles intact or longevity. I think it's only logic that someone who tries to build muscle mass must eat and train differently than someone fighting cancer, at least according to Seyfried and D'Agostino. Ultimately, we all have to find our own path or preferences.
As a sidenote: We should have an own thread about hunger. It seems to me that at the core of both fat loss and weight maintenance is HOW TO EAT WITHOUT GETTING TOO HUNGRY? (or snacky)1 -
Ah yes. Hunger. I have shared many times that while I did not lose my excess weight via a plan built around low carb or high fat, I thank my lucky stars that I ventured into this forum in search of something totally unrelated to weight management. And have come out the other side learning what I need to eat or how I need to generally balance my macros to maintain my weight loss and not spend my life HUNGRY. I did that for 2 years pre LCHF, maintain with high levels of hunger, and it was beyond unpleasant.1
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Foamroller wrote: »I think it's important to keep in mind that personalized medicine is all about acknowledging that we're all different. From my understanding, making blanket statements about protein intake is ignoring the fact that the body's ability to recycle protein, aka. "protein turnover"...is HIGHLY individual. F.ex. I think this ties to people who are trying to build muscle fibres needs more amino acids. But very sedentary people has less demand for tissue repairs. Making a cheap point: The protein need for a young bro at the gym is NOT the same as an old hen like me I think this also explains at least some of the anecdotes about people reporting they can thrive on total carnivore lifestyle. Just like some people can tolerate insane amounts of carbs without seeming ill effects....it would be logic that minorities of gen pop need more of either protein or fat to feel well and keep appetite at bay. Myself, I need proteins to feel full. I can eat an astonishing amount of fat before it registers in the tummy. Maybe it's the incretin effect that Dr Fung talks about in his book, I don't know.
Another point is that overconsuming proteins beyond what your body actually needs is probably not a good idea for long-term health reasons due to chronic high levels of insulin and igf-1. This can possibly be somehow mitigated by IF eating windows though. But the main takeaway is...if one chooses to eat very high protein levels or high volume of food in general, one should make sure to mitigate the flux of energy with physical activity. Overdoing whey shakes as a sedentary, may do more harm than good. It's weight bearing activity that retains or builds muscle mass. I might be wrong but: drinking protein shakes alone will not stop sarcopenia, instead you skyrocket insulin.
Think about it: When you're overwhelmed or get overrun with too many job tasks or responsibility at work. How do you feel? You get erratic and do things haphazardly. Or for us untidy people. When forced to clear because of guests, I tend to be left with some stuff I don't know where to put, shove it into a bag and toss it into a closet. It works on the surface, but it's not a solution to my problem. Then, think about how your body feels if you keep shovelling down food it doesn't need or want. Maybe the body gets overwhelmed too? Maybe it also chooses short-term solutions at the expense of outcomes you actually want such as lipolysis? (mobilizing fat for energy production).
It's all about a balance of opposing goals: look youthful with explosive muscles intact or longevity. I think it's only logic that someone who tries to build muscle mass must eat and train differently than someone fighting cancer, at least according to Seyfried and D'Agostino. Ultimately, we all have to find our own path or preferences.
As a sidenote: We should have an own thread about hunger. It seems to me that at the core of both fat loss and weight maintenance is HOW TO EAT WITHOUT GETTING TOO HUNGRY? (or snacky)
While I agree on the extremes, one of the issues I frequently see (especially here and in other keto forums) are people actively avoiding protein and artificially keeping it down, "because GNG" or "because insulin." This is on par with the "drink water even if you're not thirsty" and "eat every 2 hours even if you're not really hungry" mantras in that while there are certain, specific circumstances where someone might need to do that, generally speaking it's unnecessary and even counterproductive.
I think a lot of it has to do with debate over how much protein is "enough" versus how much is "too much," and people have been increasingly lowering that threshold of "too much" lately, to the point that there's this fear in a lot of people of breaking the 50-100g range (even for people who would naturally sit in the 100s and whose lean mass justifies it). I'm of the opinion that unless you need to restrict protein for specific, verifiably-protein-reactive (ie - seizure control, kidney disease), your body will compel you to eat the right amount (seriously, trying to get a large amount of protein in, especially from whole-food sources is hard). Don't specifically seek out protein and don't specifically seek to avoid it, and you'll generally fall about where you need to be.
Roughly 1-2g/kg of lean body mass isn't really generally considered a "high" level of protein, and it frequently works out to the amount you get if you eat to satiety using whole foods with meat without artificially restricting things (such as doing things like having a giant bowl of salad for the purpose of filling up on greens and restricting intake of more calorically-dense foods). You can get 66g of protein from a single 3oz serving of beef per meal for a three meal day, for example.
As for the high insulin and IGF-1 concerns, I suspect that if you're not artificially inflating your protein intake, it's an overrated concern as well, because I've actually seen the opposite. For the past decade, I've dealt with hyperinsulinemia (chronically high insulin). When I went total carnivore and was eating primarily bison, eggs, and pork (among the top insulin-producing proteins out there), my fasting insulin actually went down to more ideal levels. And no, carnivore isn't overly protein-heavy. My intake stayed pretty steady when I switched to it from keto, at around 120g of protein, which is about .7-.8g/lb or ~1.7g/kg of lean mass for me. At the time, the extent of my working out was a daily hour walk at 3mph and a couple dozen pushups 2-3 days a week, while the rest of my day was spent at a computer (in other words, not a "gym bro").2 -
Dragonwolf wrote: »Foamroller wrote: »I think it's important to keep in mind that personalized medicine is all about acknowledging that we're all different. From my understanding, making blanket statements about protein intake is ignoring the fact that the body's ability to recycle protein, aka. "protein turnover"...is HIGHLY individual. F.ex. I think this ties to people who are trying to build muscle fibres needs more amino acids. But very sedentary people has less demand for tissue repairs. Making a cheap point: The protein need for a young bro at the gym is NOT the same as an old hen like me I think this also explains at least some of the anecdotes about people reporting they can thrive on total carnivore lifestyle. Just like some people can tolerate insane amounts of carbs without seeming ill effects....it would be logic that minorities of gen pop need more of either protein or fat to feel well and keep appetite at bay. Myself, I need proteins to feel full. I can eat an astonishing amount of fat before it registers in the tummy. Maybe it's the incretin effect that Dr Fung talks about in his book, I don't know.
Another point is that overconsuming proteins beyond what your body actually needs is probably not a good idea for long-term health reasons due to chronic high levels of insulin and igf-1. This can possibly be somehow mitigated by IF eating windows though. But the main takeaway is...if one chooses to eat very high protein levels or high volume of food in general, one should make sure to mitigate the flux of energy with physical activity. Overdoing whey shakes as a sedentary, may do more harm than good. It's weight bearing activity that retains or builds muscle mass. I might be wrong but: drinking protein shakes alone will not stop sarcopenia, instead you skyrocket insulin.
Think about it: When you're overwhelmed or get overrun with too many job tasks or responsibility at work. How do you feel? You get erratic and do things haphazardly. Or for us untidy people. When forced to clear because of guests, I tend to be left with some stuff I don't know where to put, shove it into a bag and toss it into a closet. It works on the surface, but it's not a solution to my problem. Then, think about how your body feels if you keep shovelling down food it doesn't need or want. Maybe the body gets overwhelmed too? Maybe it also chooses short-term solutions at the expense of outcomes you actually want such as lipolysis? (mobilizing fat for energy production).
It's all about a balance of opposing goals: look youthful with explosive muscles intact or longevity. I think it's only logic that someone who tries to build muscle mass must eat and train differently than someone fighting cancer, at least according to Seyfried and D'Agostino. Ultimately, we all have to find our own path or preferences.
As a sidenote: We should have an own thread about hunger. It seems to me that at the core of both fat loss and weight maintenance is HOW TO EAT WITHOUT GETTING TOO HUNGRY? (or snacky)
While I agree on the extremes, one of the issues I frequently see (especially here and in other keto forums) are people actively avoiding protein and artificially keeping it down, "because GNG" or "because insulin." This is on par with the "drink water even if you're not thirsty" and "eat every 2 hours even if you're not really hungry" mantras in that while there are certain, specific circumstances where someone might need to do that, generally speaking it's unnecessary and even counterproductive.
I think a lot of it has to do with debate over how much protein is "enough" versus how much is "too much," and people have been increasingly lowering that threshold of "too much" lately, to the point that there's this fear in a lot of people of breaking the 50-100g range (even for people who would naturally sit in the 100s and whose lean mass justifies it). I'm of the opinion that unless you need to restrict protein for specific, verifiably-protein-reactive (ie - seizure control, kidney disease), your body will compel you to eat the right amount (seriously, trying to get a large amount of protein in, especially from whole-food sources is hard). Don't specifically seek out protein and don't specifically seek to avoid it, and you'll generally fall about where you need to be.
Roughly 1-2g/kg of lean body mass isn't really generally considered a "high" level of protein, and it frequently works out to the amount you get if you eat to satiety using whole foods with meat without artificially restricting things (such as doing things like having a giant bowl of salad for the purpose of filling up on greens and restricting intake of more calorically-dense foods). You can get 66g of protein from a single 3oz serving of beef per meal for a three meal day, for example.
As for the high insulin and IGF-1 concerns, I suspect that if you're not artificially inflating your protein intake, it's an overrated concern as well, because I've actually seen the opposite. For the past decade, I've dealt with hyperinsulinemia (chronically high insulin). When I went total carnivore and was eating primarily bison, eggs, and pork (among the top insulin-producing proteins out there), my fasting insulin actually went down to more ideal levels. And no, carnivore isn't overly protein-heavy. My intake stayed pretty steady when I switched to it from keto, at around 120g of protein, which is about .7-.8g/lb or ~1.7g/kg of lean mass for me. At the time, the extent of my working out was a daily hour walk at 3mph and a couple dozen pushups 2-3 days a week, while the rest of my day was spent at a computer (in other words, not a "gym bro").
I purposefully avoided any numbers, lol. 1.2 g/kg LBM is still pretty low. For me it would amount to 48g. I didn't advocate a ridiculously LOW protein number. I'm myself a high protein eater. But I don't assume that what works for me must work for everybody else too. I think it's ok to respect that people who has diagnoses like T2D or cancer or Alzheimer's ...may do better for health reasons from time to time to restrict protein due to the fact that some proteins are up to 58% insulinogenic according to Phinney and Volek. If carbs are almost 100% insulinogenic and protein is up to 58% insulinogenic. The difference might be only 42% less insulin response with proteins than carbs. What's the logic in promoting very high protein intake for people who try to limit insulin surge? If carbs are the enemy based on the argument of high insulin...then people who can eat insane amounts of protein are not much better off than high carbeaters. Yes, yes I get that most people can naturally eat protein to satiety. But some of us can't. I can eat a whole 400g packet of bacon plus 2 liters of soup over a couple of hours. My argument was that protein intake should be adjusted based on INDIVIDUAL goals (that might change). I'm a longstanding advocate for self experiments and knowing your own body.
My real target for posting today is the misconception that taking several whey shakes per day somehow miraculously retains muscle fibers. Nope. Sarcopenia is mostly loss of type 2xb. The explosive power. Having protein shakes doesn't stop muscle from atrophy due to unused. There are at least 3 excellent lectures on theIMHC channel on utube about aging, muscle building and sarcopenia. I highly recommend them !
I'm leaving the thread but thx for the exchange 0 -
Foamroller wrote: »Dragonwolf wrote: »
.Foamroller wrote: »
I purposefully avoided any numbers, lol. 1.2 g/kg LBM is still pretty low. For me it would amount to 48g. I didn't advocate a ridiculously LOW protein number. I'm myself a high protein eater. But I don't assume that what works for me must work for everybody else too. I think it's ok to respect that people who has diagnoses like T2D or cancer or Alzheimer's ...may do better for health reasons from time to time to restrict protein due to the fact that some proteins are up to 58% insulinogenic according to Phinney and Volek. If carbs are almost 100% insulinogenic and protein is up to 58% insulinogenic. The difference might be only 42% less insulin response with proteins than carbs. What's the logic in promoting very high protein intake for people who try to limit insulin surge? If carbs are the enemy based on the argument of high insulin...then people who can eat insane amounts of protein are not much better off than high carbeaters. Yes, yes I get that most people can naturally eat protein to satiety. But some of us can't. I can eat a whole 400g packet of bacon plus 2 liters of soup over a couple of hours. My argument was that protein intake should be adjusted based on INDIVIDUAL goals (that might change). I'm a longstanding advocate for self experiments and knowing your own body.
My real target for posting today is the misconception that taking several whey shakes per day somehow miraculously retains muscle fibers. Nope. Sarcopenia is mostly loss of type 2xb. The explosive power. Having protein shakes doesn't stop muscle from atrophy due to unused. There are at least 3 excellent lectures on theIMHC channel on utube about aging, muscle building and sarcopenia. I highly recommend them !
I'm leaving the thread but thx for the exchange
You make good points and your concerns are valid.
As for the bolder area, the difference is the action the insulin has on amino acids is not comparable to action it has on carbohydrate.
Hyperinsulinemia or Diabetes isn't just high insulin alone. It's also, even in the visibly lean people with it, a fat storage issue... IR. Meaning your body's individual threshold for fat cell growth. Some people can become morbidly obese and still now show signs of increasing blood sugar or fatty organs because their body is handling the fat storage in adipose well. Other people are visibly normal weight but have full blown diabetes because their body does not handle the fat storage well.
So having higher insulin due to protein isn't a fat storage function and therefore is unlike having higher insulin for glucose handling. They are not comparable but they are being compared quite often and some people are afraid to eat "too much" protein because of it.
Also, advocating for "eating your protein" as I do, is definitely not saying to eat high protein.
The numbers @Dragonwolf and yourself noted are both good moderate protein amounts. Not high. I know you both also agree with that as you said so. I eat the same amount myself. I don't think anyone "needs" more than that but it's also completely ok to have more as long as their isn't a specific health concern not to.
The point is, don't be afraid of eating all or over your protein recommendations because you think it's the same as carbs. It's just NOT.0 -
Ugh!
Every time I try to reduce all the quoted stuff I mess up everything! Lol0
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