do cheat your way to hit daily protein target?
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Adi4Fitness
Posts: 97 Member
i find it hard consuming huge quantities of meat .... so i figured why not 2 scoops of chocolate whey protein with a meal then bamm close to 80 grams of protein in a meal.
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Whey protein is a good source of protein, if it isn't loaded up with sugars. Why would that be considered a cheat? It is just eating protein.1
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Generally no, but my diet is primarily meat so it's not an issue here. For a while I was adding powdered collagen to my breakfast soup which also increases the protein. Since it didn't alter the texture or taste at all, it might be something you can look into doing.0
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I tend to be over my protein goal even without supplementing, but I wouldn't consider whey a cheat. (80 per meal seems pretty high anyway -- I also couldn't eat that much meat -- but maybe you only eat 1-2 meals? My goal is around 100 g of protein total, and I eat 3, so it's easy.)3
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I'm not sure if you are trying to be keto, but 80g is more than enough to kick you out of ketosis if yes. Excess protein is converted to glucose. If not used within a short period of time, then that glucose converts to fat. The only reason excess protein (more than 20g-30g at 1 sitting / during 1 hr. time period) is better than net carbs is because it is inefficient in conversion to glucose. Net carbs are about 100% conversion and excess protein converts at about 58%.
ETA: Also, whey is one of the fastest proteins to digest and that increases how much gets converted to glucose.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm not sure if you are trying to be keto, but 80g is more than enough to kick you out of ketosis if yes. Excess protein is converted to glucose. If not used within a short period of time, then that glucose converts to fat. The only reason excess protein (more than 20g-30g at 1 sitting / during 1 hr. time period) is better than net carbs is because it is inefficient in conversion to glucose. Net carbs are about 100% conversion and excess protein converts at about 58%.
ETA: Also, whey is one of the fastest proteins to digest and that increases how much gets converted to glucose.
Glucogenesis , works only when in caloric surplus right? I eat at defit of 600 calories. I also intermittent fast 16/8.0 -
Adi4Fitness wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm not sure if you are trying to be keto, but 80g is more than enough to kick you out of ketosis if yes. Excess protein is converted to glucose. If not used within a short period of time, then that glucose converts to fat. The only reason excess protein (more than 20g-30g at 1 sitting / during 1 hr. time period) is better than net carbs is because it is inefficient in conversion to glucose. Net carbs are about 100% conversion and excess protein converts at about 58%.
ETA: Also, whey is one of the fastest proteins to digest and that increases how much gets converted to glucose.
Glucogenesis , works only when in caloric surplus right? I eat at defit of 600 calories. I also intermittent fast 16/8.
No, gluconeogenesis does not require a calorie surplus. In fact, it is probably more likely to occur in a deficit since it is demand driven.
ETA: Though I'm not sure that GNG from dietary protein is demand driven.... just from body protein / muscle. As a type 1 diabetic, I'm always watching BG and can tell you from personal observation that a high amount of whey protein causes an increase in blood glucose.1 -
Eggs, cheese and nuts are also decent sources of protein. What you might also consider doing when you do use protein powders is to use a combination of say (1) Whey protein, (2) Pea protein; and (3) Casein (if you are okay with Casein as some people choose not to ingest it) because each type of protein is metabolized at different rates so using a combination of protein powders can actually keep you satiated for longer periods of time. I don't mind eating meat myself, but I find I go through these cycles and periods where I just get sick of eating meat to the point where I just can't make myself eat much of it and when that happens to me, I do resort to and rely on protein powder which I often add or hide in things I cook and bake. lol1
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I wouldn't worry about GNG. Especially if you don't specifically test your own personal response to it. Unless you're keto for neurological issues or cancer or something, you don't need to be concerned about if it would prevent ketosis, which it very well may not.
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html?m=1
https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-can-i-eat-in-one-sitting/
And there was also a recent thread here with a great article by Marty Kendall about protein and GNG that @RalfLott posted.5 -
Adi4Fitness wrote: »i find it hard consuming huge quantities of meat .... so i figured why not 2 scoops of chocolate whey protein with a meal then bamm close to 80 grams of protein in a meal.
What is your protein goal and what do you consider "huge amounts of meat"?1 -
Sunny_Bunny_ wrote: »I wouldn't worry about GNG. Especially if you don't specifically test your own personal response to it. Unless you're keto for neurological issues or cancer or something, you don't need to be concerned about if it would prevent ketosis, which it very well may not.
http://www.ketotic.org/2012/08/if-you-eat-excess-protein-does-it-turn.html?m=1
https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-can-i-eat-in-one-sitting/
And there was also a recent thread here with a great article by Marty Kendall about protein and GNG that @RalfLott posted.
Well tried it today...for days i was full eating lunch or a couple of bites at my dinner at work a double quarter pounder with cheese sandwich. Today i had 85 gramz of protein in my lunch which included a protein shake. And by dinner time i was still hungry after eating that sandwitch which felt like a slice of bread . I totaled at 133 grams of protein. I think with my lean body mass of 141 pounds id need at max 0.8 of it making it 112 gramz of protein.
Im hoping my interment fasting can put me back into ketosis.. its a pain to deal with hunger on IF0 -
Here's an interesting video arguing that muscle retention and ketosis are perfectly compatible. Also covered are insulin & BCAAs. (Notes have cites to studies.)
https://youtu.be/SJOlP1MbN3k
@midwesterner85
@Sunny_Bunny_
@cstehansen
@ladipoet
@Dragonwolf
@lemurcat126 -
I am pretty good about checking glucose levels. I am doing the low carb really for regulation of glucose as a T2D. The weight loss is a benefit, but even if I were not losing, I would still be doing low carb for the BG readings. I was paranoid about protein raising glucose levels and tried to keep at about 40(ish) g of protein for each of three meals a day. My goal is 125. I seem to have discovered for me that protein does not have much short term impact on BG. It may have a small (good) impact on fasting glucose the morning after a supper of 50 or 60 g of protein as compared to 40, but that may be my imagination too. It does not seem to be problematic anyway.
My take is that much of the blood glucose and response to various things is very dependent on the individual. You don't really know unless you are checking ketones or glucose or something.3 -
Interesting video as usual @RalfLott! Glad I don't go out of my way to consume BCAA's (never have).
Really intersting video!
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it through.... BCAAs are ketogenic amino acids but are more likely to kick you out of ketosis if you have too many because they raise insulin, which would lower glucose.... Yet they are the amino acids that do not catabolize muscles...
Catabolizing muscles = bad. Lowered BG = good. Higher insulin = bad or good depending on needs and health. But muscle peservation = good. ????
I'm confused. Now I need to read more. Down the rabbit hole I go.1 -
So if you are consumimg mostly ketogenic amino acids, does the body use triglyceride back bones for glucose then? Or does it use/catabolize your muscles more?
Must read more....0 -
With the strong representation in the forum regarding "Oh don't worry about too much protein intake and GNG", I might suggest those who are interested and concerned AND ARE NOT doing their own N=1 experimentation, should take a look at the studies or listen to podcasts and videos of experts who represent the other side of the debate. A starting point might be Dr. Dom D'Agostino. A great deal of info is available via the internet.
While his research tends to be related to ketogenic diets as related to medical issues such as cancer, epilepsy, BG etc I began listening to him regarding his research for the US Dept. of Navy as related to seizures experienced by deep sea divers (and only because my favorite Uncle was a Master Chief Diver with the US Navy many years ago). Dr. Agostino's research is quite diverse.
For the record: I am aware of perceived differences/need for compliance regarding Ketosis for weight loss and ketosis for other medical issues. For many reading this forum ketosis for obesity or morbid obesity could be a medical issue and not just a desire to lose a few pounds. Also, I am currently not eating a ketogenic diet but when I was it was "Medically Therapeutic" so there lies my personal research of exploring "the other side" of the "too much protein" debate as well as what is presented so frequently in the forum given protein intake in the diets I looked at, was limited.2 -
This is interesting...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/With the strong representation in the forum regarding "Oh don't worry about too much protein intake and GNG", I might suggest those who are interested and concerned AND ARE NOT doing their own N=1 experimentation, should take a look at the studies or listen to podcasts and videos of experts who represent the other side of the debate. A starting point might be Dr. Dom D'Agostino. A great deal of info is available via the internet.
While his research tends to be related to ketogenic diets as related to medical issues such as cancer, epilepsy, BG etc I began listening to him regarding his research for the US Dept. of Navy as related to seizures experienced by deep sea divers (and only because my favorite Uncle was a Master Chief Diver with the US Navy many years ago). Dr. Agostino's research is quite diverse.
For the record: I am aware of perceived differences/need for compliance regarding Ketosis for weight loss and ketosis for other medical issues. For many reading this forum ketosis for obesity or morbid obesity could be a medical issue and not just a desire to lose a few pounds. Also, I am currently not eating a ketogenic diet but when I was it was "Medically Therapeutic" so there lies my personal research of exploring "the other side" of the "too much protein" debate as well as what is presented so frequently in the forum given protein intake in the diets I looked at, was limited.
I keep confusing myself with my n=1. I like ketosis for how it makes me feel, the ease of weight loss and low BG during the day. I used to take a protein powder in my coffee because I had a tough time with meeting my protein macro. Once I stopped losing I cut it as a possible insulin elevator, extra source of calories, and because my fasting BG was going up again.
Now I started usin it again because whey powder IS insulogenic and I can't figure out any other way to lower my fasting BG without fasting half the week or taking metformin... And to top it off I can't even figure out if high fasting BG is even a bad thing when I am on a sub 10g carb diet.
BUT it does help me chea and get protein up to where most people say it should be. Above minimum needs. Or the minimum needs that the typical, sugar-burner would need.
So confused. I need more research but I also need someone to dumb it all down for me. LOL
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With the strong representation in the forum regarding "Oh don't worry about too much protein intake and GNG", I might suggest those who are interested and concerned AND ARE NOT doing their own N=1 experimentation, should take a look at the studies or listen to podcasts and videos of experts who represent the other side of the debate. A starting point might be Dr. Dom D'Agostino. A great deal of info is available via the internet.
While his research tends to be related to ketogenic diets as related to medical issues such as cancer, epilepsy, BG etc I began listening to him regarding his research for the US Dept. of Navy as related to seizures experienced by deep sea divers (and only because my favorite Uncle was a Master Chief Diver with the US Navy many years ago). Dr. Agostino's research is quite diverse.
For the record: I am aware of perceived differences/need for compliance regarding Ketosis for weight loss and ketosis for other medical issues. For many reading this forum ketosis for obesity or morbid obesity could be a medical issue and not just a desire to lose a few pounds. Also, I am currently not eating a ketogenic diet but when I was it was "Medically Therapeutic" so there lies my personal research of exploring "the other side" of the "too much protein" debate as well as what is presented so frequently in the forum given protein intake in the diets I looked at, was limited.
Yes. It really is best to try things out for oneself. Even as much of a protein advocate as I am, I fully respect individual experiences.
Personal experiences that seem to conflict with known science don't necessarily disprove the science there just may be more to the story.
But as far as the protein argument goes for nothing more than a weight loss keto diet, I can't be convinced it makes any sense to ever limit it. Ketone levels aren't what creates the fat loss so it doesn't even make any difference to a fat loss goal even if protein did reduce them.3 -
With the strong representation in the forum regarding "Oh don't worry about too much protein intake and GNG", I might suggest those who are interested and concerned AND ARE NOT doing their own N=1 experimentation, should take a look at the studies or listen to podcasts and videos of experts who represent the other side of the debate. A starting point might be Dr. Dom D'Agostino. A great deal of info is available via the internet.
While his research tends to be related to ketogenic diets as related to medical issues such as cancer, epilepsy, BG etc I began listening to him regarding his research for the US Dept. of Navy as related to seizures experienced by deep sea divers (and only because my favorite Uncle was a Master Chief Diver with the US Navy many years ago). Dr. Agostino's research is quite diverse.
For the record: I am aware of perceived differences/need for compliance regarding Ketosis for weight loss and ketosis for other medical issues. For many reading this forum ketosis for obesity or morbid obesity could be a medical issue and not just a desire to lose a few pounds. Also, I am currently not eating a ketogenic diet but when I was it was "Medically Therapeutic" so there lies my personal research of exploring "the other side" of the "too much protein" debate as well as what is presented so frequently in the forum given protein intake in the diets I looked at, was limited.
I think there's a fair bit of misunderstanding regarding protein intake and how it affects ketosis.
Protein affects ketosis primarily through it being insulinogenic. That is, protein consumption prompts a release of insulin. This happens because of the protein itself, not GNG.
Ketone production is regulated by insulin, the same way glucose is. More insulin means reduced ketone production. Reduced ketone production (with no decrease in energy expenditure) means lower readings. Lower ketone readings do not necessarily mean GNG is going on.2 -
Just saw this -- great video!0
