Need help on my journey!

JuneBerry2

Hello! I am new here at MFP. I’m so glad I found EM2WL! I have been trying to find my TDEE for about 9 months now, and I could use some help!

I have a history of under-eating, for at least several years (and maybe much longer). I did gain weight a few years ago, and then lost about 20 pounds by restricting calories. I am now just a few pounds over my pre-diet highest weight.

My stats:

Female
Age 51, postmenopausal
Pre-EM2WL weight 135
Pre-EM2WL calories about 1400
Pre-EM2WL body fat 30%

Current weight 154-155
Current calories 2225
Current body fat 34%

Calculated TDEE at 154 pounds for Moderate activity is 2131, for Strenuous is 2372.

Exercise: I am currently doing 3 days a week of body weight/light weight strength training for the lower body for about 45-60 minutes, plus another 2-3 days lighter strength training for the upper body for about 30 minutes. I am limited by some injuries. **I WAS doing workouts that lasted 1 – 1 ½ hours, which I now realize is too long! In the past it was even longer. So I am going to try to keep the time to 45 minutes. I also do housework and gardening.

I jumped in and upped my calories to 2000 within about 2 weeks of starting EM2WL. I increased the calories by 50 to 100 every week or two for a while, up to 2250 calories. Then I backed off by 25 to 50 at times, as low as 2150, thinking my weight was going up and I was over TDEE. Then I would forge ahead again by 25 to test the waters.

I did not feel good at 2150. I was too hungry and irritable! I felt good at 2200. But at 2225 now, I am sleeping better, and my morning temperature has been trending higher. So I think those are big changes that might be telling me I’m close to TDEE?

The thing is, at the last 2 calorie levels, 2200 and then 2225, my weight would go up a bit and then seem to stabilize for a month. Then my weight would go up a couple of pounds! So, was my weight really stable (like what the Metabolism Reset Guide says to look for before upping the calories again)? Or is there a slight trend upward?

At 2200, my weight was pretty stable around 150 for 4 weeks. Then it went up to 152. I was at that level for 5 weeks.

At 2225, my weight went up to 153 (over the first 3 weeks) and then stabilized for 4 weeks. Then it has gone up to 154-155 over the last 3-4 weeks. I have been at this calorie level for 10 weeks.

I have been increasing lean mass according to Trendweight, but I am gaining 2x as much fat mass as lean mass.


Questions:

Is there a gradual trend upward with my weight?

Does it really matter, if I am feeling better and sleeping better?

Is it possible that my body is gaining weight after 4 weeks of being stable because I haven’t reached TDEE yet and my body wants more food? (Is my body storing fat and gaining weight because it thinks I’m still starving)?

Does my body want to go back to its pre-diet high weight, plus a few pounds extra?

Could exercising too much/too long be increasing cortisol, and that’s why my weight and fat % keep going up?

Am I just getting bigger as I up the calories, making my TDEE go up? (Am I stuck in a loop?)

Could doing the same exercises (for physical therapy) month after month be affecting my weight? (I know we’re supposed to change them up every few weeks, but being in PT makes it hard to do that.)

Should I try upping calories again, to 2250?

Will I ever find my TDEE?

Thanks for any help you can offer!

Raynn1

Welcome to the group:)
First, know that all your questions are common and normal thinking. We all overthink, overprocess and stress over the little things during a reset. The things you need to ask yourself is what really matters to you.
You said you are sleeping better and generally feeling better. How much is that worth to you? Does it really matter if your weight isnt where you "think" it should be if you are feeling good about yourself and you are less stressed in general?
Things to remember - you come from a restricted dieting background which means you have lost a lot of muscle over the years to dieting. Resetting means replacing that muscle, NOT fat loss. Resetting means healing, so its common to see scale gains and energy gains and overall better feelings in general. You would be best to put the scale away while resetting and focus on how you feel overall.

As for your tdee, based on what you say you are doing for exercise, PT and general movement, you are in the strenuous category for cals.. so You are not eating enough. I would increase up to that 2370-2400 mark and sit there for a while and see what happens. Remember, you arent supposed to see scale drops or fat losses in reset, so dont be alarmed if you do see the number on the scale rise (hence why we tell you to put it away)

finding tdee is a bit of a science.. its not as cut and dry as picking the right number. For most of us we need to play around a bit and tweak numbers as we go. So dont be afraid to increase the cals. If anything, it helps you to build more muscle, which is what we are looking to replace:)

Hope this helps
Kelly
Team EM2WL

JuneBerry2

Thank you Kelly! WOW, I never thought my activity would qualify as “strenuous”! I thought maybe I could be in the middle somewhere between moderate and strenuous.

I added it up and am figuring the minimum amount of exercise I do is about 3 ½ hours, and could be up to 4 ½ hours. (My exercise consists of my PT-related stuff.) Would this number of hours still qualify as strenuous? I think Scooby says strenuous is 5-6 hours?

If I increase my calories to see what happens, what should I be looking for?

How do we find our TDEE if we don’t watch what the scale is doing, like seeing if our weight stabilizes before adding more calories, and knowing we’ve overshot our TDEE if our weight keeps going up?

Isn’t a “reset” what we do after we find our TDEE? So after we find our TDEE, we eat at or above that calorie level for our reset time?

That’s a good way to think about increasing the calories, as an opportunity to build more muscle!

Thanks for the help!

heybales

Ya, if actually added up that's all, that's the low end of moderately active.

But the problem with those kinds of TDEE estimators (here and scooby's) - they don't account for any difference in daily activity outside exercise.

Even with deskjob, unless you come home and plop on couch and watch TV all night, most are busy with family/house stuff, and become lightly active just there, especially when weekend is counted in.

So you are likely top of Moderately active then.

And PT stuff usually isn't that countable, it's like daily activity level. Unless they really have you doing cardio sessions or lifting sessions - which I've never seen in PT.

JuneBerry2

Thanks heybales! What do you think the top range of moderately active would be? Maybe 2200-2300?

The exercises/PT stuff I am doing include: Squats, Hamstring curls, Hip and Glute and Quad exercises, Abs, Bicep curls and Tricep kickbacks, Shoulder exercises. They are all like what people do for regular workouts at the gym, but I am limited in how much weight I can do right now.

Has anyone ever heard it said that strength training for more than 45 minutes at a time can increase cortisol? (And that would lead to fat gain?)

heybales

Cortisol doesn't lead to fat gain - leads to water weight gain. Usually around stomach. Perhaps that's the confusion.
Then again, some people think they gain that 4 lbs right there overnight of fat - which is about impossible.

Lifting for any amount of time, if it's hard enough to cause good stress on muscles (no stress, no need for improvement), causes water retention in the muscles (similar to inflammation for healing).

Not allowing recovery from said workout (which if good could take 24-48 hrs), and stressing the muscles again increases cortisol, and eventually poor workouts since body isn't getting stronger having recovery short circuited.

So is the physical therapy versions of those strength training items actually at a heavy weight, or pretty easy to rock through the 15 or whatever reps for the muscle?

I know when I had shoulder surgery, while painful and hard to do the motions - no real recovery needed the next day because it wasn't really an overload on the muscles, it just hurt using them. Could have done day after day if needed.
That's not the type of big calorie burn lifting would normally do (which compared to cardio is about equal to walking fast anyway, so not much in scheme of things).

It's only when you can do a really good overload progressive routine that it could be considered a workout needing as many calories as that time would assign.

Raynn1

You are definitely active, so high end of moderate to strenuous would be right on where you need to be. Again its not a science so a lot of it is playing around a bit with numbers to see where your target lies.
TDEE is just the target number. A reset takes place on the way up to TDEE AND includes staying at TDEE. Going above that number for a period of time would be considered Bulking.

Your PT work would just be considered stretching and such at this point, but if you are working up a sweat while doing it (im assuming you are doing work at home in between sessions), then those are things to consider with your caloric levels.
Also dont rule out your housework and gardening as part of your activity level. These are still activities that require a calorie burn and they can certainly add up to extra movement. You do not need to sweat for something to be working your body.

If you are interested, we have a link on the main community page for our group which is registration for a Webinar we are having next week. There will be some discussion on that talk about cortisol and how it affects your weight/fat loss efforts. Highly recommend:)

Kelly
Team EM2WL

JuneBerry2

Thanks for telling me about the Webinar! Where do we show up for it? Do we just log in here to the main EM2WL page?

Is it possible to gain weight because we need more calories? (I’m going to guess yes?)

I am so hungry today! I’ve woken up too early the last couple of days and am hungry and irritable, and just feel yucky, like I can’t handle doing anything today. Maybe here’s why:

Last week I took a rest week from workouts, the first time I’ve ever done that. When I started back up this week, I was going to try to reduce a few reps/ sets and limit my workouts to 45 minutes. I was also trying a couple of new exercises.

I was so wiped out after my workouts! I think I was doing them “faster” to get done before 45 minutes, and it felt stressful to my body. And maybe the couple of new exercises were challenging for me.

What do you think? Did the rest week, then changing my workout routine a bit, do something to my body?

If I up the calories, is it okay to go 25 cals at a time? Or is that too slow?

(I think maybe I never should have mentioned the PT, as it may be confusing. The exercises I listed above ARE my PT exercises, and yes I do sweat!)

heybales

You have way more inaccuracies in your food logging and nutrition labels - 25 calories way too slow.

Sweating isn't an indication of a good hard workout - it's merely a sign your body is either hot and trying to cool, or it's trained and thinks it will get hot. Or something hurts or is difficult, but may not be hard.
You can have a not strenuous workout and sweat.

Rest week was probably really good, changing routine not as big a deal, the method of workout was though.

If you held your breath during say a 1 minute of rest during sets - would the next set be harder?
Sure - because it was heavy?
Only heavy because you had no recovery to allow doing another set normally.

So yes, rushing wasn't useful. Just arbitrarily prevents doing as heavy a workout, or when attempting to, makes you more tired.

You likely would have come back stronger from a rest - most do.
The fact you dropped reps/sets and found it harder - means you rushed and just limited yourself.

That kind of stress can actually increase cortisol and water weight gain.

And cause more retained water in muscles for healing.

JuneBerry2

Thanks for the interesting info! I had someone tell me to take it slow at 25 calorie increases, and it’s been about every 5-8 weeks. But I know EM2WL says to increase by 100 calories, and in reading about reverse dieting they mostly say 100 calories and some say 50-100 calories.

I was afraid maybe I was going too slow! Maybe my weight increases have outpaced my calorie increases, leading to a higher TDEE.

Is it possible that my body is gaining weight after 4 weeks of being stable because I haven’t reached TDEE yet and my body wants more food?

I’m feeling discouraged because the weight gain is really showing up in my face now! And I fear that the weight will never stop going up!

heybales

No, your body if at a deficit to true TDEE doesn't magically hold on to fat weight.

That's the often repeated myths about skipping breakfast and metabolism stops and you hold on to all the fat and don't burn any.
Add any number of myths in there along the same lines.

Like eating too little doesn't cause fat to be held onto or gained.

But it can stress the body and cause water weight gain while fat is lost. But usually under stress, muscle is being lost too.
And body is usually burning less than it's potential to compensate for the extreme deficit.

But it sure can't cause fat to be gained or even stop fat from being lost.

So gaining weight now after being stable - stress water weight - easily.

Or possible but not that much gain - your activity level slowed down, so in essence eating more, and that increases carb stores in muscles with attached water.

Or possible but again not much gain - your cardio activity using muscle glucose stores has increased so body is storing more with the attached water.

25 cal extra daily for a week at a time is going to take forever (besides the sheer inaccuracy of attempting that), and just keep body under stressful conditions longer.
If your body really has a problem speeding up enough daily activity (that's what really drops) to cover 100 extra calories daily for a week at a time - you have other health issues going on.

How close are you to estimated TDEE?

Do you hold to the routine each week that the TDEE is based on (for instance 3-5 hrs, really hitting 3 every week minimum?).

You could also be over potential TDEE and body isn't going to burn more. Unless you just keep increasing weight, which isn't a good method to hit an estimated TDEE number.

JuneBerry2

Thanks for the comments! I’ll have to think about the stress water weight.

When you say just doing 25 calories at a time keeps my body under stressful conditions longer, do you mean the stress of being under TDEE, not having enough calories?

I agree, it seems like 25 cals at a time will take forever! It seems it is not enough to prompt the body to show me if a certain calorie level is okay (stabilizing weight) or too much (weight clearly going up and not stabilizing).

I am currently at 2225, which is between my “moderate” TDEE of 2139, and my “strenuous” TDEE of 2380.

I do keep to my exercise routine. I have recently allowed myself an occasional day off, maybe once every 3 weeks or so.

By “other health issues,” maybe not being able to handle 100 extra calories might mean something like low thyroid function?

Raynn1

Our webinar can be found here: https://eatmore2weighless.lpages.co/lose-fat-webinar-registration/?utm_source=mfp&utm_medium=DM&utm_campaign=quick start

There are two days this week we will be running it! Sign up for it!:)

As for the cal increase.. 25 is not a lot of an increase. However if that it all you are comfortable increasing at a time, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with taking it that slowly. Yes, it will take you longer to get up to your TDEE, but I would much rather see you go at it at your own pace, than rush things and stress out more with a larger jump. So no matter what this is YOUR journey so take it however fast or slow you want to.

Scale gains are common as we make our way up to TDEE. The body is trying to replenish everything you have lost during your dieting days.. so muscle, water, etc are gained back.,Honestly, removing the scale from your life will make the biggest change to your success.. there are many other ways of gauging your TDEE number that doesnt involve the scale. Too many times people fret over that stupid thing and it ends up ultimately driving them to fall back into old ways.

2225 sounds like a good number to hit for now. Reevaluate as you monitor your activity levels:)

Kelly
Team EM2WL

heybales

Those with thyroid issues do indeed show a max 5% below expected BMR. But that's medicine required for other body functions to operate correctly level of thyroid issue.

The bigger issue there is it makes you tired and move less during the day, effecting your TDEE.

Several studies have shown it's not the metabolism slowdown from thyroid that is the problem with weight gain or difficulty losing - it's the amount of movement from feeling tired.
Even there, some can get inspired enough to do a workout, a really good one. But then be so knocked out rest the day, they gained 500 from the workout, but lost 400 from sitting more. So the workout only increased their day by 100 calories.

So if injured and doing this therapy, confirm if the pain perhaps isn't knocking down your activity level. If no pain, then likely no problem.

You are so close to TDEE, my comment about keeping body under stress longer doesn't apply.
But if you had like 800 to move up, and was merely keeping to 25 increases because someone mentioned it, then look at how many weeks you are well below potential TDEE causing stress, rather than just 100 weekly.

You do sound moderate level though, since the therapy isn't the level of lifting weights that gives more calorie burn.
And even that level of lifting "heavy" is equal to walking about 4 mph, so not huge burn.

Just remember that fat is not fast - lost or gained.

A 1 lb increase in 1 week if it truly was fat would imply you ate 500 over true TDEE each and every day.
And even if you selected the wrong activity level - the math just doesn't work out for that to be the case.

But water weight, can be quick coming on (like increased sodium compared to normal), and slow coming off (like sodium).

Since the waist is usually the first place people gain and last place lose fat - that measurement at the belly button will give a better tale than the scale.
Since your BMR literally changes through the month, monthly weigh-in on a valid day is just fine to confirm trends.

JuneBerry2

Thanks Kelly, that makes me feel a bit better! What are the “other ways” to gauge our TDEE? Would it include sleeping better, better mood, not feeling very hungry, having more energy for workouts, etc?

It sure is confusing because the metabolism reset guide says to watch the scale. And that seems simple because it’s numbers, not feelings. But I can see how it might be inaccurate and stress us out!

Thanks, I did sign up for the webinar!

Sorry for any confusion about the calorie increases. I started out my journey by increasing about 500 calories over a couple of weeks, then by 100 calories every few weeks, then up or down by 50, and now over the last few months by 25 calories.

Thanks heybales! It is mild pain right now that has me moving a bit less efficiently, maybe a little slower. But it doesn’t keep me from moving.

The belly button measurement has gone up about ½ inch over the past month.

Would water weight show up in the face? I’m guessing not?

Will the weight gain ever end??? I sure hope so! (Feeling scared!)

Raynn1

Other ways to gauge can include how you feel, how you sleep, your energy levels, how your clothes fit etc..
TDEE is still just an estimate so a lot depends on the person and how much they are wiling to let go of.. the scale is a hard one for people to get rid of, so watching the numbers can help SOME people, but if you cannot stand to see that number rise, then its not a good measure for you for tdee.. working up to tdee is a process and it most always causes fluctuations in the scale... and not a good way for most of us:)... so being able to not stress about seeing that number go up is more important than knowing what the number actually is.

The weight gains do balance and level off.. its a tough pill to swallow and believe me its not easy.. so think long term.. this "weight" is not fat.. its adding muscle and water and glyogen back into my body which was removed from dieting. It NEEDS to be there in order for the FUTURE results to be permanent. Think of it as short term pains for long term gains:)

It sucks, I wont lie. I struggled hard with my reset.. but looking back, I wouldnt have it any other way

Kelly
Team EM2WL

JuneBerry2

Last week I was brave and upped the calories by 50! I had a night when I woke up feeling hungry enough to get a snack (plus the fatigue I mentioned before), so that prompted me to think I might need more calories.

My weight stayed pretty much in the same range as last week, maybe a tiny bit on the higher end.

Well, last night I woke up feeling hungry again, and got a snack. I feel tired today! Yesterday I did something kinda mentally taxing, so maybe that’s why?

Does that mean I should up the calories again by 50 or so? What do you think? By the way, it’s been about 6 months (before last week) since I have felt hungry and got a snack in the middle of the night.

Before I took that rest week off from exercise, then started up again, I had felt pretty decent and was sleeping better. What happened? Did my metabolism get kick-started by the rest week?

Also, I was thinking, what are the chances that I’ve been over my TDEE this whole time? When I started, my calculated TDEE was around 2000, and I only stayed at that level for a couple of weeks before increasing by 100, and continuing up from there.

But, how I have been feeling better at higher calorie levels--like sleeping better, not waking up hungry (until recently), etc.—makes me think I am getting closer to TDEE the higher I go.

But, my weight keeps going up, slowly! Am I crazy to eat more food when my weight keeps going up this whole time? (No, but I feel like it!)

Kelly, thanks for your comments! I have definitely gained fat during this time. My tummy has gained inches! It sure is hard, especially mentally. This process is so challenging and confusing!

heybales

Suggest examining the food diary too, and when you ate.

A higher carb ratio causing insulin spike and causing blood sugar to go lower than normal can also make you _feel_ hungry - but your body really did get enough calories.

kcmsmith0405

What heybales said - if I eat enough protein and good carbs I don't feel hungry at TDEE. If I eat not enough proteina nd bad carbs I could eat 1000 over my TDEE and not feel satisfied. Look at what and when you ate. Focus on the 30% protein and they rest will most likely fall into place.

heybales

For as many people that always say to listen to your body (I dislike that phrase personally as advice, never mind great majority are probable here trying to lose weight because they did exactly that) - it's usually failed to mention it's a foreign language that is being spoken.

So to listen to it and understand means some translation and knowledge is required.

JuneBerry2

I need help figuring out what my body is telling me! I am feeling more hungry, but my weight is still trending upward.

My calories:

I’ve been at the 2300 calorie level for 9 weeks now.

Scooby has me at 2170 for moderate exercise, and 2400 for strenuous.

Other calculators at “active” level (vs. light active or very active) have me at 2400.


My weight:

A few weeks ago my weight seemed quite steady (not bouncing around) at 158 for 1 week.

Then for the next 2 weeks, it seemed quite stable at 159.

Now this week I’m up to 160, but it’s stable.

So, if my weight is still going up every couple of weeks, then that’s not really “stablized,” right?


My hunger:

Three times in the last couple of weeks, I’ve woken up in the middle of the night feeling hungry enough to get up and have a snack. (I am very consistent on protein and carbs, so that’s not the issue.) This usually only happens once every 2 months or so.

Then I feel yucky and tired the whole next day.

In the past, I’ve taken this as a sign that I need more calories throughout the day.

Also, I find myself more hungry in the mornings lately.


My activity level:

Over the last month or so, my activity has increased a bit with a new PT routine. So that adds maybe 45 minutes to 1 ½ hours of light exercise per week. I was at about 4 ½ hours of body weight strength training exercise before. So that could put me at 5-6 hours of exercise per week?


What it means?

Do I need to add more calories? (If I was reading this about someone else, I’d say yes!)

But what about the weight still creeping upward?

I’d appreciate any feedback! Thanks!