Discussion on "What The Health" and Keto/LCHF Diets...

thelowcarblady

Sorry if this has been brought up before -- I haven't personally seen anything about this here in this group. But I had someone preach to me about going Vegan and to watch "What The Health" documentary talking about how veganism is soo great and how low carb diets kill you...basically...

I haven't yet seen it -- I was just wondering if any of you have and what your thoughts on this were. Also if you did further research yourself I am curious to know what you found out.

I should say that I began doing a LCHF diet since I have PCOS and it was suggested to me by my doctor and WHEN i have been really good and sticking to it for a full month or more (I struggle, what can i say?) I know that I had seen amazing results from it. So I am not against veganism or anyone who does it -- I just eat the way I eat because of the doctor recommendation since I have insulin resistance with the PCOS.

Lastly, if anyone has any great documentaries to recommend having to do with LCHF versus a HCLF diet, or even just LCHF. If it's on Netflix then awesome but YouTube is also fine.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RalfLott

I don't know if this is barking up the wrong tree, but here's an interesting discussion between Drs. Perlmutter (Grain Brain) and Douillard (Eat Wheat). They are both bright guys, and there's a lot they agree on beyond their fundamental differences.

https://youtu.be/97QtIsMTmW0

RalfLott

Stanford med school prof compares effectiveness of 4 popular diets.

https://youtu.be/eREuZEdMAVo

cstehansen

First, I am of the opinion that no diet is perfect for everyone. The only blanket statements I will make in regard to diet are:

1 - added sugar (especially HFCS) is not healthy for anyone
2 - "vegetable oils" are not made from vegetables and the chemistry needed to make these is so horrific that anyone who thinks these could possibly be healthy clearly doesn't know how they are made nor do they know about the inflammatory response your body has to them
3 - the worst thing you can do to promote insulin resistance (and all the wonderful things that follow like obesity, diabetes, heart disease....) is eat every few hours so that your body never burns any of the fat stores

The issue is not vegan/carnivore/omnivore. Nor is it purely HC vs LC necessarily. It is what carbs and how often and in combination with what other foods. The vegans will point to the low incidence of these metabolic diseases in the far east prior to the westernization of their diet where the people subsisted on 70% carbs with no diabetes. What they don't point out is those people only ate 2 or 3 times a day allowing their bodies to shift from sugar burning to fat burning every day. They also ate nearly no sugar. Westernizing a diet when discussing harm should not refer to adding meat. In reality it is adding the sugar, refined carbs, veg oils and increased frequency of eating.

The carnivores point to the Inuit and the hunter/gatherers in Africa who eat almost nothing but animal products and have no diabetes and almost no heart disease. As their diet gets westernized, they start getting these same diseases. Clearly it is not because of adding in meat since their diets consisted almost entirely of meat before. It is adding in the sugar, refined carbs, veg oils along with increased frequency of eating.

As for movies on Netflix, I just recently watched Sugar Coated.

Although it is not a LCHF movie, I would recommend watching The Widowmaker.

What's Up With Wheat is also on Netflix. I think it has good information, but I would not say it was a well done documentary.

In my Netflix queue, I have Fed Up. Not sure when I will be able to watch this, but hopefully soon.

My Big Fat Diet from the Diet Doctor is also on my list to watch. The link is here.

hmikkola92

That sugar film on Netflix is great. I won't be watching "What the health" since you mentioned it's anti low carb

kpk54

I'm currently watching "What The Health". It is fascinating, in that it is an absolute 180 from all that I read in this forum and elsewhere advocating LCHF. Additionally study after study is sited, pro vegan, that can be equally as convincing as anything that is read or heard that is pro animal. Caveats to the studies are pointed out just as was pointed out above in a post.

Furthermore just as the The American Heart Association, The American Diabetes Association, The American Cancer Society, The US Gov't and Big Pharma are "under attack" by the meat eaters for advocating fruits vegetable and grains so too are these same entities "under attack" by the "pro plant" groups for advocating animal products. Just as we read here (this forum) that these organizations are guilty of accepting money from major food manufacturers, so too is this film pointing out the same organizations are guilty of accepting monies from major food manufacturers. The only difference is the named manufacturers.

Along these same lines, I'm currently reading Diet Cults. The book is pointing out that every diet group, whether it is Vegan or Carnivore or anything in between, believes their way is - The One True Way.

There were hunters. And they survived. There were gathers. And they survived. We have evolved as a species. We still exist.

pitbullmamaliz

Just watched Fed Up. Was sad. Apparently I'll be removing What The Health from my Netflix queue if it's pro-vegan. :-P I also agree that What's Up With Wheat had good info, terrible delivery. I had trouble making it through without falling asleep.

kpk54

It is definitely vegan. I wasn't swayed from lchf by it but found it interesting. The same arguments exist even though it is the opposite end of the spectrum.

Thanks for sharing Eat Wheat @RalfLott. It was interesting. I though Perlmutter was correct in saying a better title for the book might be Eat Grains based on Douillard overall position and Doulliard made an interesting point about the need to eat these things in season if 1 chooses to eat them. Perlmutter was about to really make a huge deal about how that could be a bit complex to do so but I think he backed off a bit in the spirit of not being argumentative.

kpk54

Great 2nd video too @RalfLott. Loved how he joked of being a 25 year vegetarian having to admit the lchf diet was the most effective.

Alaplum

At present there are no randomized controlled studies showing veganism to be healthier to any other diet. There are, however, many randomized controlled studies showing LCHF to be healthier.

Here is a list

RalfLott

Bouddie wrote: »

At present there are no randomized controlled studies showing veganism to be healthier to any other diet. There are, however, many randomized controlled studies showing LCHF to be healthier.

Here is a list

@Bouddie - Alas, even Volek and Phinney would acknowledge that while a well-formulated LC diet is generally healthiest, not everyone, at every age, will thrive on it compared to healthy LF.

@kpk54 - I was bowled over by the candor of the 25-year vegetarian. The two aren't incompatible, but I have to imagine that hitting protein goals can be challenging for some vegans.

It all says to me that we should keep open minds, not be too hasty to generalize from our experiences to other individuals, and appreciate the points of overlap - choose foods carefully, avoiding sugar and processed foods; keep a lid on total calories; and monitor our progress.

@cstehansen

Sunny_Bunny_

If you want to be vegan do it for moral reasons not for health.
A person can eat a meat only diet and receive all the minerals they need but the same is not true of vegetables only. They must supplement the missing nutrients. So how can that be the way humans were meant to eat?
Eat meat if health is the goal.

cstehansen

If you have 3 hours to spare, watch the great nutrition debate. It has everyone from Dr Atkins to Dean Ornish on the panel. The only two things they all agreed on was we should move more and processed carbs should be avoided.

I find it crazy how many "vegetarians" actually just eat a bunch of crappy carbage and very few actual veggies and claim to be doing it for health reasons.

My wife is a vegetarian and my brother and his wife are both vegans. Done correctly, it can be healthy although I think it is difficult.

As @kpk54 said, both sides demonized the same groups. I would say we could actually team up and agree to push for an end to being able to claim ANY of that processed crap is healthy. Anyone on either side should be able to agree that just being fat free or sugar free doesn't make it healthy when it is pumped full of unpronounceable chemicals and such.

Alaplum

@RalfLott I agree with you, I have a great sympathy for vegetarianism and even vegan lifestyle choices. Being an animal lover many of the arguments are compelling. That said, what this documentary does is use fear tactics and shoddy science. I have a distaste for such manipulation and perhaps that comes out in my tone. You're right, this woe isn't for everyone, I do think it's likely healthiest for most people but I can't go that far yet as I haven't looked into the studies themselves.

RalfLott

If someone wants to be a carnivore, vegan or vegetarian for ANY reason, I'm not going to attempt to talk them out of it - it's such a gut-level choice for many people that arguing about it is almost as pointless as trying to persuade folks to change religions or political parties.

But as @cstehansen says, all sides should be able to agree that sugary, processed foods, from commercial cured meats to cereals and juices, are not the best choices for us (nor for our kids).

PS. And that high-calorie diets rich in both processed fats and carbs are probably going to spell trouble sooner rather than later.

JessicaMcB

So my take on What The Health is this; I have all the respect in the world for people who choose veganism to stand on their principles- this is no easy feat and most people don't have the mental fortitude for that level of commitment to an idea. To make your own life much more complicated for other sentient beings takes love.

That being said, the vegan community has a tendency towards far reaching (and false) assertions that drive me crazy, and that was evident in the first minutes of this film. To make the 1=1 equivalency between meat of any kind and cigarettes is laughably hyperbolic imo. I couldn't take it seriously after that.

I also found it somewhat ironic that the gentleman who made the documentary admitted to being a hypochondriac that was "healed" by veganism. To my (bitter?) mind that reads a bit more like he traded one method of assuaging his health neuroses (intense over supplementation) for another (dietary restriction in the interest of having the "perfect" diet).

1sillyceliac

I was curious about vegan keto diets... they do exist. I was a vegetarian for 5 years, but vegan keto sounds nearly impossible.

MyriiStorm

1sillyceliac wrote: »

I was curious about vegan keto diets... they do exist. I was a vegetarian for 5 years, but vegan keto sounds nearly impossible.

I tried to find a vegan keto meal plan. My daughter-in-law, who is vegan, sent me links to various vegan "keto" meal plan websites. Invariably, each meal had more carbs in it than I wanted in an entire day. Most of the meals had 35-50 carbs, and they advocated three meals per day with a couple of snacks (another 30-50 each) to boot. Personally, I want no more than 20-30 carbs per day, not per meal.

If there is a vegan keto meal plan out there with a max of 30 carbs per day, and at least 80g of protein, I have yet to find it.

drosebud

I haven't watched the What the Health video but this response to it is very funny:
http://zdoggmd.com/what-the-health/

urbansmamma

drosebud wrote: »

I haven't watched the What the Health video but this response to it is very funny:
http://zdoggmd.com/what-the-health/

This was a great response to the video. I saw it for about 15 mins and had to turn the documentary off.

I was a vegan for 2 years am after watching Forks Over Knives and had success. Although it was super difficult and carb cravings were through the roof. After getting pregnant I quit and tried again with little success. I was whit me knuckling it. Then I got gestational diabetes diabetes and my sister who was on Keto suggested I give it a shot. I was more low carb than Keto but it worked! Miraculously I felt a million times better and was able to fully control my diet without drugs and I birthed a totally healthy baby.

Now im in an accountability group with my mom and aunt. My mom is on Keto but my aunt is vegan with no salt or no oil. Totally the opposite of what I'm doing. But we are just encouraging each other on with no judgement. There is no one size fits all and I'm not about to dictate to someone what they should do with their body. The one thing we do agree on is removing highly processed foods and eating more while foods. I think when you ignore your differences and focus on your similarities it works better.

mountainrun73

What the Health touts bad science. Including something about sugar doesn't cause insulin resistance, meat does. Or something to that effect. Jimmy Moore just came out with a podcast (It's the Keto Talk podcast) dissecting the film.

Then there's this hilarious video from a doctor in Las Vegas: http://zdoggmd.com/what-the-health/